Hazrat Isa A.S.

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Context for Ascension:

a) Bible - Popular Christian belief remains unchallenged in any Islamic reference … rather Qur’an affirms and defends it, by saying he was “taken up” … It does so by refuting the killing or crucifixion of Jesus (AS).

b) Nothing shall harm Jesus (AS) as per Bible also not refuted in Islam - so any vain attempt to say he even went near the cross is on dodgy grounds. In fact it is a “promise” made to Isa (AS) and one of the derivatives of the root of tawaffee - i.e. wafa - is promise - and to fulfill something.

c) Plenty of hadith say that he (AS) will descend … Isa (AS) will descend because he first ascended … context is as per Qur’an and hadith.

d) Tawaffee the word used in the Qur’an has appeared with matters regarding Isa (AS) … the translation of this word is not discrete - i.e. it takes metaphoric meaning most of the time. As a result the word itself cannot be used as proof for or against and other information is necessary.

e) It is established as a critical element of the Sunni 'aqeedah to believe that Isa (AS) is still alive and shall descend.

f) It is recognised that certain signs of the Day of Judgement precede the coming of Isa (AS) these signs are only just occurring.

g) The grave site in the Roza (Madinah) is empty - Isa (AS) is to be buried there.

h) If you look closely at the verses that include “mawt” and “tawaffee” in them … they prevent you from rendering the meaning of “tawaffee” as death …

“tawaffee” is a verb … “mawt” is a noun …

Now in Arabic … A verbal sentence needs (a verb, a doer, and sometimes an object - if it is transitive) … In the Holy Book we can see various things being in the position of the “doer”.

Allah does tawaffee
Angels do tawaffee
Death (Mawt) does tawaffee

Notice all the “doers” are nouns …

The sleep state is a tawaffee because the souls are taken - but they are not severed from the body - the state that a person is in during the severance is called death and the “action” of death - is that severance - a different kind of tawaffee from the ones of the angels … Souls are taken up after judgement - this is many years after a person dies … they will be grouped with other souls and taken in classes to paradise or to more sinister places - these are again different types of tawaffee happening …

For sure when death “takes” a person - it takes their body and soul … but it does so by severing the two from one another … However, in the case of Isa (AS) again his body and soul was taken by Allah (SWT) not by “death” and hence we cannot assume death in this case. Also, it befits the verses … how can Allah (SWT) refute the killing of Isa (AS) and yet still assert that he died? That would not be fulfilling the promise.

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psyah, your assertion that tawaffee means ‘taking up’ is fundamentally flawed. I asked you to give me something concrete in that case. you didn’t. this meaning is concocted. As you claim to have a better knowledge of arabic, I ask you give me usage of tawafee meaning ‘taking up’ for an ordinary living person, the word being applied to his person and not any inanimate object. If it is difficult for you, I will assume that ‘taking up’ meaning is a cocked up meaning specifically for Jesus(as)

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hereb is a statement from fateh ul bayan by nawab siddiq hasan khan

In this statement that he wrote in connection to the the ‘ini mutawafeeqa’ verse, he clearly stated that ‘mufasareen’ did ‘Taweel’ for the ‘wafat’ of isa (as). what say you?

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Peace kchughtai

I agree it is “interpreted” the word can only be interpreted the direct translation is vague … “to take” in meaning changes it literal picture even in English based on the context … I have always asserted the meaning of complete and whole person being taken is “ta’wil” but I also hold that all the other ones are too … because the words in Arabic never say (soul) but we interpret the meaning of soul … same thing for all other uses of the word … as I said it is a verb and mawt is a noun they are two different things grammatically.

Death can take … just like Allah can take … but the way the taking takes place is different … also what they are taking is different …

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Peace Mr.Popat

Ok this is a verbal sentence towards the end of the verse … where is the f’il, the ‘faa’il’ and what is the maf’ool … from this we are not using a standard translation we are building our own … so please speak up … leave the tawaffee term untranslated and see what meaning it can take …

please do the same here …

Oh and in your translation … until death overtakes them …

what Arabic word is representing “death” and what Arabic word is representing “overtakes them” … is it not … “mawt” and “yatawaffahunna.” ???

If so how can tawaffee mean “death” ???

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Yusuf Ali translation : (6:61)

He is the irresistible, (watching) from above over His worshippers, and He sets guardians over you. At length, when death approaches one of you, Our angels take his soul, and they never fail in their duty.

Pickthall translation :
He is the Omnipotent over His slaves. He sendeth guardians over you until, when death cometh unto one of you, Our messengers receive him, and they neglect not

Shakir translation :
And He is the Supreme, above His servants, and He sends keepers over you; until when death comes to one of you, Our messengers cause him to die, and they are not remiss.

Sahih International translation :
And He is the subjugator over His servants, and He sends over you guardian-angels until, when death comes to one of you, Our messengers take him, and they do not fail [in their duties].

Muhsin Khan translation :
He is the Irresistible, Supreme over His slaves, and He sends guardians (angels guarding and writing all of one’s good and bad deeds) over you, until when death approaches one of you, Our Messengers (angel of death and his assistants) take his soul, and they never neglect their duty.

Dr. Ghali translation :
And He is The Vanquisher above His bondmen, and He sends preservers over you till, when death comes to any of you, Our Messengers take him up, and they (i.e., the Messengers) do not ever neglect.

Here you have it. 6 of the translation. Pick any you like. Dont question me. Question the translators.

Mawt and yatawaffahunna both in one verse. Mawt comes before yatawaffahunna in this verse. Therefore, when one dies, their soul is taken to heaven by the messengers(angels), thus, it means taken the soul.

When is soul taken again? sleep and death. You have no other possibility. Not atleast from Qur’an.

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what Arabic word is representing “death” and what Arabic word is representing “overtakes them” … is it not … “mawt” and then “yatawaffahunna.” ???

So how can mawt = tawaffee ??

Answer this question Popat …

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a) christian belief that he went to heavens bodily alive, whereas jews claim they put him to death. Quran refuses both this. Quran challenges christian belief by telling them that He did not go up to heavens alive, but rather God raised his soul (gave him death). Jews claim is also refuted by Quran that it was not them who killed him nor crucified him.

b) Jesus(as) was put on cross but not crucified by Jews and was not killed by them. Quran says every prophet was humiliated by non believers. All were mocked at. Muhammad PBUH was humiliated by the people of quraish. So were other prophets at every stage when Allah sent them. Jesus is no exception. He was being hurt by jews. The process of him going through all the humiliation and still remained steadfast in the way of Allah is why Allah raised his status.

c) Poor analogy. Quran does not confirm his ascension in the first place. Hadith does say he will descend but, no where does it say descend as in bodily alive. Allah use the word descend when he creates or bring forth something on earth. Mann o salwa is one thing i could think of from the top of my head. Messengers are also descended from heaven. It merely means.. from Allah. Not bodily descend.

d) the word tawaffee can very well be used in favor of his death. I presented you various verses in which it means ‘taken ones soul’, death. You’re confusing yourself.

e). Ahl e sunnah or whoever. Whats wrong is wrong. You believe in ahl e sunnah, whereas I believe in what Quran and hadith teaches me. Whichever aqeedah is wrong from the view point of Quran, is not to be believed in. Plain and simple.

f) You dont know when the day of judgement is to come. If i were to tell you that Zaid will marry twice before he dies. Does it mean he will die right after he marries someone else , or does it mean death will not come to him until he marries twice. Once hes married twice, death can come anytime, whether hes 50, 60 or 90 years of age. Same with day of judgement. Judgement day is not to come until Jesus(as) comes.. now when he comes, it can be tomorrow, a year from now, century from now or 1000 years from now. That is not for us to know. Only thing was, judgement wont occur UNTIL he comes. Thats all.

g) it is taken literally. Your own belief contradicts it. You say a prophet is to be buried where he dies.

h) mawt comes before the word tawaffee in 6:61. Makes it absolutely clear that after mawt, tawaffee takes place, which is taking the soul to heaven. Remember , only 2 ways of Allah taking souls. Death and sleep. No other possibility is available for you as per Quran. You die, and thus your soul is taken by angels.. or when soul is taken by angels.. it is only if a person is dead or is sleeping. See it from both angles.

Allah does tawaffee. Angels are under Him. They obey the commandments of Allah. Angels dont do tawaffee without asking Allah. Death does tawaffee, sure.. and so does sleep. Both of these occasions, the body itself remains on the Earth. Whats the problem there?

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That was one of many translation I put forward. There are 6 more you can choose from. Your pick.
mawt and tawaffee is used in one verse. mawt representing death, whereas the word yatawaffhunna representing taking soul.

Why dont you help me choose which translation out of 6 translation i posted fits you and make sense? Perhaps all?
Your belief could be totally different about the word. I’m merely telling you what other translators have translated that verse. Translate the verse for me in a very simple manner. Thanks.

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Peace Mr.Popat

Translators interpolate and add terms to reflect the intent of the meanings they have obtained … they seldom do straight translations …

In 4:15

yatawaffahunna means “is/will take them (female plural)”

mawt means death

yatawaffahunnalmawtu translates as “death takes them (females)”

In all of your posted translations I can say categorically there is no word SOUL in Arabic “ruh” used anywhere in the text … it is added by the translators … and stop shifting the focus I’m talking about how mawt can mean tawaffe … does it or does it not mean the same thing?

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I haven’t seen these verses yet … please show where sleep does tawaffee …

P.S. Why are you commenting on my context points a to h … I didn’t ask you to comment on them … you have to provide YOUR context as to why Isa (AS)'s tawaffee is to be taken as 2b) taking of the soul after death …

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At this point, you simply are arguing without much sense of what you want to say.

Let me give you again 3 of the different translation for that verse too.

Here goes:..

Dr. Ghali Translation:

4:15 And (as for) the ones of your women who come up with the obscenity, (i.e., illegal sexual intercourse; abomination) so, call four of you to witness against them. Then in case they (bear) witness, then retain them (The pronoun is the feminine plural) in the homes until death takes them up, (i.e., they die) or Allah sets for them a way.

Shakir
And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

Pickthall
As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).

Plural or not.. how does that even matter? its not me shifting the focus of the topic but rather you. You fail to understand this simple logic. You die and therefore SOMETHING goes up, and that something is soul. Messengers(angels) take them away , as is said in other verse. Allah does not need to say ‘ruh’ in these verses as Allah already said he takes soul in 2 occasions. Sleep and death. If you’re not sleeping and Allah takes away your soul, then you’re DEAD ! ! !

Show you where sleep does tawaffee ? really?

39: 42 Allah takes away the souls of human beings at the time of their death; and during their sleep of those also that are not yet dead. And then He retains those against which He has decreed death, and sends back the others till an appointed term. In that surely are Signs for a people who reflect.

It is the SOUL that Allah takes away.
**
ALERT : Even in 39:42, the word tawaffee is used. Word used both for sleep and for death. And as we know, Allah is talking about the soul here, and not BODY!
**
So here you have it. Sleep does tawaffee, (temporarily).

I provided you enough why Isa(as) tawaffee is not to be taken as bodily taken up. I have give you many verses in which the word u translate as ‘taken up’ means death. What else do you want ? On the other hand, it is now you who have to provide me the **3rd way **of Allah raising oneself bodily. The burden lies on you. I have a very clear view of it.

Mawt means tawaffee (permanent tawaffee), and sleep does tawaffee( temporary ). In both cases, body remains on Earth. Tell me the **3rd way **please.

well.. what do i say about that? Translators translated it for you. You wana believe it, by all means do so. If not, then choice is yours. Do translate this verse for Isa(as) however ahl e sunnah does it. Don’t think too much about it.
I told you what translators have translated that word as, and that was what i needed to do.

As for why i commented on your A to H points. I just felt the need to. Just read it and ignore it. No hard feelings.

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Bhai loog, aap saab kewn pareeshan hotay ho? Forget about meaning for ‘Wafat’, ‘Tawaffi’, ‘Muttaffi’ or any of its derivatives, as they are irrelevant Because:

It is clear message ‘giving condition’ in Quran from Allah and from what I understand, according to that condition:… Isa (AS) has not died yet (I mean, till today). :slight_smile: … That means, Isa (AS) is alive and InshaAllah would appear at appropriate time.

If anyone has problem with that then they should stop believing on Quran or start interpreting Quran different from obvious (some people are very good in that though :)).

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It is the very term that creates confusion. Theres infact just one verse in Quran which some translate it according to however they like, but neglect the entire Quran. The word tawaffee is very much relevant.

I do not understand what you mean by ‘giving condition’. Please do explain.

I am here to learn. If I’m wrong.. i will certainly go back, do more research and will come to conclusion. I’m not here to win a debate or to enforce my beliefs on anyone. I’m simply putting forward the belief that I hold based on Quran and ahadith. If I’m wrong, I will not find it humiliating that I’ve been wrong all along , and will actually believe in what the truth is. But for that to happen, someone must show me truth from Quran.

I’m not here to interpret Quran. May Allah not forgive me if i’m knowingly hiding the truth. What I’ve understood from Quran, which i take it to be truth, I want everyone to know about it and want everyone to let go of the physical arrival of Isa(as).

ae azizo! soch kar dekho zara
maut se bachta koi dekha bhala
ye to rehne ka nahi pyaaro makaaN
chal basay sab anbiyaa o raastaaN

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Brother, I like the poetry you posted. Truth is always impressive.

I appreciate your desire to learn and willing to accept truth if it comes to you clear (unfortunately, very few people are like that).

Actually, I was ignoring the discussions on religious section. But today when I was feeling bored I saw your post on Quranic translation (in ‘Surah Feel’ thread) that really shocked me so I replied there and decided to reply here too.

Fact is that, ‘Wafat’, ‘Tawaffi’, ‘Muttaffi’ or derivatives does not necessarily connects to ‘death’ as it could also connect to ‘taken away’. So, interpretations can vary.

But if one reads Quran carefully, fortunately one does not have to rely on this word to determine if Isa (AS) is alive or not, rather there are ayahs in Quran that when one look into carefully and logically, one can clearly deduce that Isa (AS) is alive even today.

So, give me some time (it is around 07.40 AM where I live, so work time … and I am a bit lazy too). But nevertheless, I will go into those ayahs to prove (without doubt) that Isa (AS) is alive (with no absurd logic). Meanwhile see if you (or Psyah) could find those ayahs too (I assure you that there are ayahs that would prove you that Isa (AS) is alive, so if you would look, I am sure you won’t get disappointed). :slight_smile:

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^^ I’ve researched on this matter so extensively that my heart knows what it is that I’m following. But thanks anyway. Will look into the verses that you’ll provide. :slight_smile:

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Peace Mr.Popat

This verse shows Allah is doing tawaffee of the nufs, around the time of death or sleep.

It does not set sleep as the doer of the action … But again, this verse proves that tawaffee is not death and is not sleep, but tawaffee is what is performed.

In this case it is specifically stated that the nufs is taken during sleep or death, but the word nufs is absent for the tawaffee of Isa (as) .

This is good work Mr.Popat keep it up …

Oh, please answer my long asked question … Do you now agree that death and sleep do not equal tawaffee?

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Peace Mr.Popat

Yes, in those verses where it specifically states souls are being taken, then that is the case … Otherwise there are deeper insights of the word tawaffee … That perhaps you have not realised …

When death takes someone … Notice the taking (tawaffee) done by death (mawt) will always be on the whole person … It takes hold of the whole person … Separates the soul from the body then let’s them go … Here death is used to represent the actions of the angel of death.

The many years later perhaps after judgement another tawaffee is done, this time only on the soul …

Or during life … A person sleeps, the body feels nothing, but the soul does … It is taken without the connection to the body being severed … So this is another type of tawaffee …

Sometimes whilst in this state, death comes … So the connection severed while the soul is stretched away from the body … Or death does not come and the soul is allowed to bounce back in to the body …

Here the tawaffee of death is a whole person experience … It is felt by the body and the soul … So tawaffee does not have to be only on the soul … But when it is on the soul alone, we can say that either the person is asleep or going to die or who has died …

However, another tawaffee can take place … And that is where the whole body is taken … And then returned (Nuzul).

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The main question is, what does word WAFA mean? It has various meanings eg loyalty ie being true to something ie one’s claim or promise or completion ie to complete something or accomplish it or fulfil it.

In urdu it also means kaam tamaam hona ya karna, takmeel, mukammal, poora hona ya karna.

The context of God sending books and prophet is establishment of his rule on the earth for the good of humanity itself. Revelations serve no other purpose whatsoever. The khilaafah of Adam should leave us in no doubt.

The quran is not a book of miraculous stories as told by our mullahs. If you refuse to accept the quran as a rational book you negate the reason why Allah gave people brains and why he gave them his books as guidance. It is all about reason and rationality.

It is because man did not know how to live a good live on this earth that is the reason Allah told humanity how to do that through his books and prophets. There is no bigger purpose to life than living a good life here on this earth. Since the birth of man earth has been full of bloodshed and God wanted to change that through educating man beyond himself.

Miracle stories are all deliberate misinterpretations and misrepresentations of the quran by mullahs to confuse us with nonsense debates the while they and their pay masters take away our dignity and even humanity. This is mullah magic ie pointing us in one direction and going themselves in the other. If you do not know the link between rulers and priests in using and abusing humanity then you have a lot of catching up to do and you cannot understand the quran without knowing it because this is the setting in which this narrative is based. Heroes and villeins. Otherwise why would noah fight with his chiefs and priests, why would abraham fight with his or even moses story. Jesus likewise had to fight with jewish priests and rulers and the same is true about the final prophet ie his fight was also with chiefs and priests.

It is because all these kings and chiefs or rulers and priests etc had one thing in common and that was they did not want peace for their people as communities and the reason is they divided people on various basis eg on class and caste etc basis and some became master of the others and so power struggles led humanity to loads of bloodsheds. The prophets were sent with constitutions to establish social order based upon these constitutions for the primary purpose of peace according set terms and conditions. That struggle remains the very same even today and for the very same reasons and that is because people still have not learn how to be good human beings.

There are no miracles involved in this narrative but plenty of lessons to learn for ordinary people as to how to organise uprisings and go through with them and set up a new world order and lesson like what to do and what not to do as a community if you want peaceful, progressive and prosperous life. This is why quran is full of stories about revelation based revolutions involving hard works by prophets and their followers not miracles. It is because we muslims have taken the quran in a totally different direction that is why we are getting what we deserve and waiting for someone else to come and save us. If sir syed, iqbal and jinnah like people believed the same we could not have had pakistan today.

Ruling elites always used priests to tell people they will be only good and God will be pleased with them if they followed their holy books as the priest told them. It means the while rulers ruled in the name of country the priest created their own states within states by way of their private law thereby ruling over people. The very thing for which the quran condemns the priests of bani israel.

So my friend wake up and read the quran properly if you want to change your lives for the better. You cannot get a better book than the quran for guidance. It was not send to guide the people with supernatural powers but ordinary human beings me and you.

This is why it tells us what to do the way it is possible for us to do and change our world around just like sensible people before us did it. This is the example of the prophets we need to follow not fight over length of our beards or pajamas.