Are you giving the dawah that Jesus (AS) is the son of God, Auzdubillah when you indeed know that neither you nor us believe in that? Are you trying to suggest that in order to be human it is not enough to see the human form? That life expectancy is something that makes one more than human?
If so then you are arguing a case that which Allah (SWT) Himself has not argued. The criteria of mortality is not life expectancy, but to eat, sleep, eventually taste death, drink and take physical form. Your dubious reasoning has only one agenda and that is a shame that you feel it fit to be used as valid argumentation.
Many prophets according to our faith lived many years … And Shaitan or Iblis is not God nor the son or greater than the son of any notion of God, Auzdubillah. People even hold that Khizdr (AS) is still alive. You have a lame argument … Revise it.
This claim is a lie ... Where in the Qur'an does it say that Isa (AS) is no more alive ?
refer to my post again.
There are natural phenomena known to man which are universally understood. We know that the life span of man on earth does not extend beyond a hundred and fifty years or so; certainly not a thousand years or more. This is a common experience relating to the span of human life on earth. If someone thinks that something contradictory to this rule has happened, then the burden of proof would fall on his shoulders, not on someone who believes in the rule rather than the exception. This should be applied to the situation enveloping the life and death of Jesus Christ. Those who believe that he did not die must provide the proof. But those who claim that he must have died, only follow the laws of nature and should not be required to prove it beyond that.
Are you giving the dawah that Jesus (AS) is the son of God, Auzdubillah when you indeed know that neither you nor us believe in that? Are you trying to suggest that in order to be human it is not enough to see the human form? That life expectancy is something that makes one more than human?
If so then you are arguing a case that which Allah (SWT) Himself has not argued. The criteria of mortality is not life expectancy, but to eat, sleep, eventually taste death, drink and take physical form. Your dubious reasoning has only one agenda and that is a shame that you feel it fit to be used as valid argumentation.
Many prophets according to our faith lived many years ... And Shaitan or Iblis is not God nor the son or greater than the son of any notion of God, Auzdubillah. People even hold that Khizdr (AS) is still alive. You have a lame argument ... Revise it.
I thought u were smart enough to know that i was by no mean giving any kind of dawah or sayin if Jesus was son of god. This is the problem with you. You sometime start attacking me personally everytime i present my idea and beliefs.
Prophets have live longer but do you not admit the case of Jesus is something different? Hes been living for the past 2012 years !!!! do you not see anything wrong with that? really?
All im saying is, Christians belief regarding Jesus hold more weight because of his ascension to heavens and His coming back. You holding the same belief will only weaken your own beliefs. Believe whatever you want to believe about what He will be upon his second coming, but truth remains.... He (as) , the prophet of Nazareth, son of Mary, is and will infact be the prophet sent to bani israel as per quran.
Yes, life expectancy is what makes one more than a human being. Satan still living = not human. God still living = cant ever be taken him as human ( though, since you say he can never talk to any human being now, i suspect if you still believe that God is a living God , but im not gettin into that ). Jesus still living for the past 2012 years = definitely can be considered something more than a human being.
If you dont have anything to respond to me with, please refrain from telling me what my agenda is. Think about what you believe in and then give dawah to other people to Islam.
By which natural phenomenon was the Qur’an revealed to prophet Muhammad (SAW)?
By which natural phenomenon was the fire that was made hot for many days not burn Ibrahim (AS)?
By which natural phenomenon was Isa (AS) born without father?
By which natural phenomenon was the boy saved from murder from the King of People of the Ditch?
How many supernatural events i.e. miracles are you gonna deny bro?
According to At-Tahawiyya Aqeedah we believe in the karamah of walis and recognise that no wali is greater than a prophet …
Next about life expectancy … Some of the oldest living creatures are less than human … not more … please take a look at:
First of all …
a) Shaitan previously known as Iblis is Jinn, made of smokeless fire, he is not Ashraf-Al-Makhluqaat - i.e. Jinn is a lower form than human … yet it is acceptable for you to believe he can live many years …
Next here are the physical creatures that live longer or as long us:
b) Some Turtles, Giant Tortoise and Turkey Buzzard
Hence I conclude that longevity of life does not make the creature “better” than us.
c) Plants:
Some of the oldest creatures in the world are trees … there are more than 20 of which currently range between 1000 to 4500 years old.
Here it appears the Hindus follow your logic of age being equatable to more than human … It is called the Sacred Fig …
It has been around 288 years before Christ and is still alive … Is a tree greater than a human on account of it’s age? Indeed Mr.Popat you are barking up the wrong tree !!!
As for the tone of my post … I apologise … and regarding the prophet of Bani Israeel topic and some alleged attempt to say that Isa (AS) will not be coming back I have taken up elsewhere in other discussions.
To sole criteria of Divine is not AGE … but He is FIRST and the LAST and THE EVER LIVING - i.e. He shall NOT DIE …
All else that dies is not divine … Mathematically take infinity as a number and compare it with 1000 or with 100 … There exists a comparison between 1000 and 100 but there is no comparison between finite numbers and infinity … they are exclusive from one another !!!
This is hopefully going to be my last post on this topic.
I dont know if i made myself clear here or in other threads where i wrote, that i am by no means a denier of miracles. Miracles are from God alone. However, each miracle that happens throughout the history, we should think it through and see how Allah must have made it happen, rather than taking them as fairytales and just blindly believing in them. There are miracles mentioned in Quran to which we can think about and come to a conclusion that this is how it must have been done, and still can we take them as miracles. For example, you mentioned how fire got cold in the event when Abraham (as) was thrown to fire? well, the verse is this : *21:69 : We said, 'o fire, be thou a means of coolness and safety for Abraham. *Theres no mention of how the fire became cool for Him. Timely rain or a stormy hurricane might have extinguished it, or the possibility that there was not enough fire present to burn Him. Theres a whole lot of other explanations you can think of about how fire had not hurt him at all. But even with those explanation, one can still take it as miracle.
Miracles does not have to be out of the very extra ordinary for us to take them as miracles. The process of a baby in a womb and their development is the biggest miracle that we see every day. Miracle can also be to be saved a very critical accident etc.
Jesus case of being born without a father is also a miracle. However, one must know that there are animals out there which are born without any fertilization or anything of that sort. For example, male bees (i heard). But, if you were to ask me to prove u scientifically how it happened then i may just say that if Allah can make it happen in physical creatures (animals) or plants, the he can do it for humans too. And beside, i need not to give explanation on His miraculous birth. Hazrat Mary(as) already had asked God that how its possible when no man has touched her? and the reply was " if i plan for something, i just say be and it is ". All in all, this is a miracle in itself and there for sure is some sort of scientific prove to back it up.
Note, i did not say ‘better’ than us. I said something ‘more’ or ‘other than’ humans. Dont play around with the wordings please. Your quote is an answer to yourself. Iblis is lower than human being .. fair enough.. still living ? ok then thats not human.
Turtles , giants tortoise and turkey buzzard .. live longer period? ok.. they’re not human in the first place so sure.. i dont mind. I do have problem a supposedly human being living for the past 2012 years. Trees, iblis or anyone other than human beings can live for 100’s 1000s of year for all i care.. they all have their own life span, but does not make them ‘better’ than us but make them someone ‘other’ than us. Everything in this world is temporary, whether its us humans, trees, or any sort of physical creature. We must all die. You cant take one person out of this whole phenomena of life and death and place him in heaven and not prone him to any kind of harm, disease, aging process, and even death for the past 2012 years. You may not say that hes someone much greater than a human being, but your beliefs loudly says that you are. Please do think about what you believe, and let only Allah be the immortal. Please do not let your heart do any kind of shirk in any way possible, whether by your tongue or by your beliefs.
When Jesus(as) was amongst his people, He(as) did age the same way every other human being age. I’m sure at 10 years of age, he did look like a kid, at 20, young adult and at 40, fully grown man. If you can prove from anywhere that his aging process stopped at any period, for example, he was 40 in real, but actually really did look like 15 years old then yeah, we do have something to think and talk about. But if he did age the same way we all do , then the aging process does not stop for anyone. Time just keeps flying my friend. It does not stop for anyone.
God is ever living , yeah.. but none has the power to stop him from talkin to his creature even to this day. You dont have to agree to that though
ps: sorry, my discussion got a lil off topic. I promise not to talk about or respond to anything thats not related to this topic. Hope i made myself clear, psyah. You or anyone is welcome to just PM me if they want more discussion on anything i said here. God bless.
Thanks for your post ... I must say that your idea of miracle is not the same as mine. A miracle is not something that has a simple explanation. The fire was blazing when Ibrahim (AS) entered and it was blazing while he was in there.
To assert that asexual reproduction is in any way an explanation to Maryam (AS) conceiving Isa (AS) is a horrid thought.
It appears that you have modified your claim from long life = supernatural to long life = other than human ... that I can live with ... for me Allah (SWT) is the Creator of all things and each being different but each share in that they are all part of Creation. There are indeed general life spans for various creatures but alas there are also exceptions. And the greatest of the exceptional human beings are those endowed with prophethood.
It is a shame that you follow an ideology that takes the depth dimension out of our beautiful religion, but it is the way you have chosen and I respect that.
^^ It was ok when you were projecting examples of plants, iblis and god knows what. Were you comparing Isa (as) with these? Stop being a smart ass. You are not the high gatekeeper of our beautiful religion so stop telling us what is in and out of the religion.
Let me make it very clear to you and mr. popat as well so that this thing doesn’t popup again and again that our beliefs including belief regarding death of Isa (as) is not founded in science but in Quran itself and science, reason and logic supports it.
Why don’t we believe that Jesus (as) is alive up in the heavens. Several reasons:
1) There is quranic evidence that Isa (as) indeed has died. Quran clearly says that all the messengers before the holy prophet (pbuh) have passed away.
2) Bodily ascension to heavens is against Quran. When people demanded from the holy prophet (pbuh) that he should go to heavens and come back with a book. Allah asked him to reply as Allah is pure of (such frivolities) and he (pbuh) is a mere human and a messenger.
3) Dwelling in heavens without aging and without needing food is against Quran and reason
4) As per Quran, Allah has ordained Earth as the dwelling place for humans
5) And many others
I don’t want to aimlessly debate this issue but my purpose is make a point that our belief that Jesus (as) didn’t ascend to heavens physically and he has died like rest of the messengers, is not just a rhetoric or based on reason and logic but also on evidence from scripture as well. You can keep on following your version. no problem
^^ It was ok when you were projecting examples of plants, iblis and god knows what. Were you comparing Isa (as) with these? Stop being a smart ass. You are not the high gatekeeper of our beautiful religion so stop telling us what is in and out of the religion.
Let me make it very clear to you and mr. popat as well so that this thing doesn’t popup again and again that our beliefs including belief regarding death of Isa (as) is not founded in science but in Quran itself and science, reason and logic supports it.
Why don’t we believe that Jesus (as) is alive up in the heavens. Several reasons:
1) There is quranic evidence that Isa (as) indeed has died. **Quran clearly says that all the messengers before the holy prophet (pbuh) have passed away.
**2) Bodily ascension to heavens is against Quran. When people demanded from the holy prophet (pbuh) that he should go to heavens and come back with a book. Allah asked him to reply as Allah is pure of (such frivolities) and he (pbuh) is a mere human and a messenger.
3) Dwelling in heavens without aging and without needing food is against Quran and reason
4) As per Quran, Allah has ordained Earth as the dwelling place for humans
5) And many others
I don’t want to aimlessly debate this issue but my purpose is make a point that our belief that Jesus (as) didn’t ascend to heavens physically and he has died like rest of the messengers, is not just a rhetoric or based on reason and logic but also on evidence from scripture as well. You can keep on following your version. no problem
My examples were showing the capability and diversity of life not being divine based on age ... Mr.Popat suggested that miracles are normal processes we find out later through science ...
The Qur'an never says that ALL messengers have passed away before Muhammad (SAW) ...
My version is the version I have taken from our schools of 'aqeedah ... your version is not orthodox.
My examples were showing the capability and diversity of life not being divine based on age ... Mr.Popat suggested that miracles are normal processes we find out later through science ...
Miracles do happen. They're not normal processes. For example Quran is one of the biggest miracle. This is from Allah. However, the miracle of Quran is not something that an ordinary person will have hard time believing. Life itself is a miracle as well, but to understand this miracle, people rely on science to explain it and vise versa.
Whats in Quran and is said by Allah that it happened, then there is no reason one should argue about it. But whats not in Quran, and saying that if so and so can happen , then the ascension can also is not the way to go.
And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
^Before I mention Quranic verses (some of them I have presented in another thread), I would say that death comes natural to humans and all living beings. Messengers are no exceptions. So even if there had been nothing on the death of Isa(as) in Quran, it would have been pretty obvious. Actually, it is true the other way around. There is no evidence in Quran that Isa (as) ascended to skies/heavens alive with his physical body.
^Before I mention Quranic verses (some of them I have presented in another thread), I would say that death comes natural to humans and all living beings. Messengers are no exceptions. So even if there had been nothing on the death of Isa(as) in Quran, it would have been pretty obvious. Actually, it is true the other way around. There is no evidence in Quran that Isa (as) ascended to skies/heavens alive with his physical body.
Would you agree Mr. Popat was incorrect when he said "God has told in Quran that hes (AS) is no more alive" ?
They did not kill him for certain. I never said they did. Neither did i ever say that when i mean he(as) died, he died by the hands of jews. He was saved from the crucifixion and died a natural death.
Would you agree Mr. Popat was incorrect when he said "God has told in Quran that hes (AS) is no more alive" ?
I have not talked about ascending or not.
God has indicated in many verses in Quran that He(as) is no more alive. If you insist that there are no indication of him dead, then you must also admit that there have been many many other prophets mentioned in Quran, that has no indication of being dead. Do you consider them all alive ?
Again, i'll say, yes, God has told in quran that He (as) is no more alive.. and i come to that conclusion based on many verses indicating in Quran about his death. Please do not waste my or your time in arguing that. Read Quran, and stop making Jesus(as) exception in everything.
What do you mean you havent talked about ascending or not? That make no sense. There is no evidence in Quran saying that He (as) went to heaven physically. If he hasnt ( which you havent talked about yet ), then where is he? .. if hes not alive.. hes dead.
God has indicated in many verses in Quran that He(as) is no more alive. If you insist that there are no indication of him dead, then you must also admit that there have been many many other prophets mentioned in Quran, that has no indication of being dead. Do you consider them all alive ?
Again, i'll say, yes, God has told in quran that He (as) is no more alive.. and i come to that conclusion based on many verses indicating in Quran about his death. Please do not waste my or your time in arguing that. Read Quran, and stop making Jesus(as) exception in everything.
What do you mean you havent talked about ascending or not? That make no sense. There is no evidence in Quran saying that He (as) went to heaven physically. If he hasnt ( which you havent talked about yet ), then where is he? .. if hes not alive.. hes dead.
Peace Mr.Popat
Our belief in Isa(AS) being alive comes from the Hadith ... Which is not conflicting with the Qur'an but it is conflicting with the pattern of normal things that happen.
I find it weird that on one hand you believe that Isa (AS) can be born of a virgin by some natural process that is as yet hidden to science, but do not conclude that Isa(AS) can still be alive by a natural process that is as yet hidden to science.
For us the Ascension and Miraculous Birth of Isa (AS) are both miracles and we assert that we believe them even when science is incapable of EVER being able to explain them.
