Hazrat Isa A.S.

Society Religion & Philosophy
61

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

what is the significants of Allah SWT refering to Isa Alaihis salam as almessiah, more specifically Almaseehu (almasihu)

i am not aware of any other Prophet/person being refered to as messiah nevermined Almessiah

62

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Thank you sir. I cannot be qualified for that.

All I have been presenting is the other arguments are there with overwhelming evidences that Quran does not really say Issa AS is no loner alive.

If this was true then 'second coming' would not be possible.

At least two major religions in the world believe in second coming.

63

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Just like how in urdu, or in any language we say 'utha liye gaye', or 'allah ke paas chale gaye', or 'guzar gaye' or 'chal basay' or 'wafaat pa gaye', they all mean the same thing. I do not know why you keep arguing about the word, as i have mentioned more than 5 verses from Quran which uses the same word tawaffee. I would like to kindly draw your attention to those verses and humbly ask you to give me an explanation on why in all the other verses where that word is used, you take it as death but only use 'bodily ascension' for Jesus (AS)? Terms may be different but they both mean the same thing. Taken up, passed away, death.. my friend... all means the same thing. In the verse where Allah says 'raise thee', you again think it means raise him bodily, while theres no mention on bodily ascension. Allah raises ones status upon death , depending on their deeds. Same was done for Jesus(AS) too. Allah raised his status as a prophet and have given higher importance in Quran. Quran does not need to explicitly say it for us to know that He(as) is already been given death. Quran does not explicitly declared each and every prophet mentioned in quran as dead.. do you think they are all bodily alive.. no , right? then why is it that, despite many evidences, you still keep questioning?

[QUOTE]
So the only resort is your appeal to common law of life expectancy ... this is the only thing you have in your favour ...
[/QUOTE]

i'm glad you agreed. Though even then, you insist that Jesus(as) happens to be the only exception who has been living in 2012 somewhere in the outer space/heaven.

[QUOTE]
But we resist due to inference from other verses like the "sign of the last hour" and from hadith that he (AS) will descend and finally that there was no documented debate with Christians at the time that he (AS) is NOT AT THE RIGHT SIDE OF GOD IN HEAVEN ... that the Christian have believed since he (AS) left this world.

Then we have early scholars confirming this fact and our masters of 'aqeedah Imam At-Tahawi for example making this belief a criterion for our faith ... There is absolutely no budging from us on this one .... I hope you realise that !!!

*Furthermore if we entertain the alternatives ... i.e. he was crucified but saved from death and then lived on for a few years then died ... is a lame argument. *

The Bible says Jesus' will be called Immanuel - i.e. God Saves ... That he will be saved from harm by the angels ... they will not let a stone strike him ... as confirmed in the account of the tempting ...
[/QUOTE]

The hadith in which prophet Muhammad PBUH talked about his descend from heavens should not be taken literally. Muhammad PBUH could not bring down a book from heaven for the disbelievers to read. When Allah says descend for any living being, He means he will give them birth on Earth but the spirit of it will be heavenly. The word descend or nazul is used in quran for various things, not to be taken as physically coming from heaven but merely someone FROM Allah.

You see my friend, you are giving importance to the master At-Tahawi and believing in him of whatever he said. The only difference between people like me and you is that we give more priority to Quran, the final word of Allah to mankind, ahadith and sunnah. If Allah and his messenger did not declare him alive, then theres no reason why one should just keep following someone who made this belief a criterion of your belief.

You calling that lame argument which makes perfect sense and which can be backed up with evidence.. and not calling it lame that you believe on one hand no one can come after Muhammad PBUH, and still believing Jesus(as) to be alive and him going to heavens alive, while Muhammad PBUH was born in front of Him, became adult while Quran was being revealed to Him, and died.. but Jesus(as) for some reason is still up above somewhere watching it all and it to you seems to be making sense. Brilliant.

64

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Quran doesn't really say all the prophets mentioned in Quran are dead , and yet you believe them all to be dead. On the contrary, there are evidence suggesting that Jesus(as) was no more than just a human being and a prophet and that he was saved crucifixion, and have died. There is no other possible explanation of Him going to heavens alive. Yes, Allah can do everything but He has not done it for Muhammad pbuh, and he has never done it for any human being including Jesus(as). The whole belief is very absurd!

I cannot talk on behalf of christianity, but as for Islam, the belief is right however, when you take things in its literal way, then things get complicated.

65

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Did you guys know the description made by Muhammad PBUH upon Jesus(as)'s second coming is different than the description of Jesus(as) of Nazareth ? Something to think about..

66

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Ok Mr.Popat ... Prepare to be entertained ...

First of all I find it amazing that you recognise the sayings as allegories, but refuse to see they also carry a literal meaning that you are ignoring ... Next let's look at those verses ...

I'll look for those verses and comment accordingly inshaAllah

67

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mr. Popat

Ok in all of those verses the same meaning applies ... "take up"

This is the meaning of the word in each case ... Actually mawt and tawaffee are two different things ... Mawt is looking at the stage of the passing from this world to the next, whereas tawaffee is focused on the destination ...

One assumes that one has to cross the stage of death before reaching the destination ... However, this is not necessary.

In all cases the word tawaffee is used the meaning is "taking up" something that has life from one place to another. It does not mandate the occurrence of death in that transformation from A to B.

68

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

At his second coming, surely Isa (AS) will be aware of what his people have been up to, i.e., taking Isa (AS) as a deity. How will Isa (AS) then feign igonrance about this on the judgement day as described in these verses? Therefore, "tawaffee" must mean death, and it must mean the death has already occurred.

69

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace brahmachari99

Let's look at that verse again ...

[quote]
And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary,** did you say** to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If** I had said** it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

[/quote]

[quote]
I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.
[/quote]

According to verses 116 and 117 Isa (AS) is not feigning ignorance at all. He is not even claiming that he did not know what they were up to ... in this verse "witness" means:

His presence amongst us

and it is about

What Isa (AS) said to the people to ensure they were correctly guided ... i.e. he (AS) did not teach his followers to call him deity - that is what Isa (AS) is denying ... he is not denying knowledge of the fact that they started to utter practices against his teachings. However he is claiming that the change of his gospel must have occurred when he was not present in the world with his people. And while he was present he did his utmost to prevent them from deifying him ...

The way you are reading and understanding this verse is obscure ... it is clear ...

When Isa (AS) was amongst us i.e. First and Second Coming the people during his time then and during his life in the second coming will not deify him, but we know that while he (AS) has not been here there are people who do deify him, also we can assume that when he (AS) will die after the second coming there is a chance that people may start to deify him again.

He is not claiming ignorance - he is denying responsibility of the habits of his followers who went astray ...

70

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Well, besides Adam AS only Issa AS was born without a father as per Quran. Both were human as per Islamic beliefs.

Issa AS is believed to have second coming and is not really proven to be no longer alive by Quran and He does carry a special place among the prophets in this regard.

Translation if possible for 'taken up' then it may be so.

Other evidences of his second coming outside Quran are present as well.

71

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

How's this true when there already are billions of Christians who do deify him?

Also, if tawaffee means "took me up" then the verse refers only to the first coming of Jesus (AS) when he was "taken up". How did he fail to mention the second coming when he'll find his people gone astray?

Also, what about the Hadith that kchughtai mentioned, when Huzur (SAW) say's he'll say the exact same thing Jesus (AS) said. Do you then believe that Prophet Muhammaad (SAW) also was "taken up"?

**In Bukhari kitab-ut-tafsir, a hadith is mentioned under the verse 5:117
(on the judgment day), **some people from my(pbuh) ummah will be taken to hell then I will say
these are my sahaba. Answer will be; you don't know what they have been doing in your absence. I will say what a pious servant of Allah Isa(as) said: "I was watcher over them as long as I was among them but when you caused me to die then You(Allah) were watcher over them"

72

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace brahmachari99

It appears that you do not understanding plain English ...

I didn't say that he is unaware of people deifying him, but I did say as long as he is here ... on this Earth ... he is witness over the people ... meaning that he testifies to never having asked for worship by them ... when he arrives again ... there will be many people who will still be deifying him, but many of those will not recognise Isa (AS) to be Isa (AS) and for those who do meet him they will either convert or die ... you just need to look at hadith to work that out.

Again Isa (AS) is denying one thing ... and that is whether he asked them for worship ... he is not denying knowledge of what they are doing.

Again the hadith is mistranslated ... the proper translation is not causing me to die ... it is "when you took me" ... there is no mention of death.

Now taking someone can be done two ways ... their souls or their whole selves ... and based on the context we INDUCE death to have taken place prior to the taking ... when taking of the souls occurs it happens either in sleep or after death ...

Interesting this hadith though it supports the idea of the second coming ... reason being that it is one of the Ummah of Muhammad (SAW) who will be going to hell ... yet Isa (AS) will claim to be witness over them ... So how is it that Isa (AS) can be witness over some people of the Ummah of Muhammad (SAW)?

73

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

I honestly dont know what to say. You've really got to see someone who can help you clear this confusion, because certainly, no matter what I or others here say, you just wont give up the fact that you're falsely believing in something which someone told you is part of your faith and now you'll do everything possible to keep the faith, even if it doesnt make any sense to you from Quran or from any historical event.

Let's examine the verses I posted before. Lets see which one of the translation regarding the word tawaffee make sense in the verses.

[2:234] And those of you who die and leave wives behind, these (wives) shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten *days
*
This is how you think the translation should be:

[2:234]And those of you who (are taken up) and leave wives behind, these (wives) shall wait concerning themselves four months and ten *days

[3:193] “Our Lord, we have heard a Crier calling *us unto faith, ‘Believe ye in your Lord,’ and we have believed. Our Lord, forgive us, therefore, our errors and remove from us our evils, and in death number us with the righteous.

This is how you think the translation should be :

3:193“Our Lord, we have heard a Crier calling us unto faith, ‘Believe ye in your Lord,’ and we have believed. Our Lord, forgive us, therefore, our errors and remove from us our evils, and take us up with the righteous.

Do you expect Allah to take you up at the time when Allah is taking up righteous ?

12:101 ....... Let death come to me in a state of submission *to Thy will *and join me to the righteous

Any explanation to these verses where the word tawaffee is used ? When you say they mean 'take up', does it make sense to you?

74

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Mr. Popat: what are your view on hazrat issa (a.s)?

75

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

are you serious ? took me up ? He died !.. thats the only reason Jesus(as) will say that "you were watcher over them". If he was taken up, why couldnt he be the witness? If hes alive, why cant he see what his followers are following ?? Nothing is making sense to you??

Jesus (as) died. Thats why Muhammad PBUH will repeat the same words for His followers a Jesus(as) will say for his. " ****I was watcher over them as long as I was among them but when you caused me to die then You(Allah) were watcher over them"

****What is it that you are denying in this ? Truth is there for everyone to see. Why do you keep insisting ur belief of this is right just because some master of yours declared it part of your faith ?

76

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

I believe that Jesus of Nazareth, son of Mary(as), which was sent to bani israel some 2012 years ago died a natural death. Allah has raised his rank as a prophet and raised his soul the way Allah raised His prophets souls. He(as) was a pious and true prophet who was just like us, a human being. He died. He(as) is not coming back. There are many many evidences suggesting his death. I say nothing but what Quran and ahadith teaches me.

77

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Would you like to mention your sources here?
I mean authentic books name.

for the sake of argument, lets suppose Issa(as) died, then where is the Grave of Issa(as)?

78

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mr.Popat

As explained before ... Tawaffee = to take up ... Mawt = death ... Tawaffee is used in three cases:

1) Taken up (literal - whole person) and

Taken the souls as:

          2A) In sleep
          2B) After Death

Mawt itself happens before the tawaffee ... death happens in this world ... when we read the verses we have to see which is the most relevant from these three options and if it is 2B) then we assert that mawt has occured and then tawaffee occurs thereafter ...

So when you apply this to the verses above you will see that the souls can be taken together ... but if tawaffee is death as you say then it is YOU who are saying that verse translates to give us death together. This "number us" is additional that you have bolted on ... and you probably knew you were doing that ...

79

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace again Mr.Popat

Imam At-Tahawi was not a local master ji ...

Look at these hadith:

*Sahih
Bukhari Volume 3, Book 34, Number 425: *

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my
soul is, so**n of Mary (Jesus) will shortly descend amongst you people (Muslims)
as a just ruler **and will break the Cross and kill the pig and abolish the Jizya
(a tax taken from the non-Muslims, who are in the protection, of the Muslim
government). Then there will be abundance of money and no-body will accept
charitable gifts.

*Volume
4, Book 55, Number 658: *

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said "How will you be when the
son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you and he will judge people by the
Law of the Quran and not by the law of Gospel (Fateh-ul Bari page 304 and 305
Vol 7)

Sunan Abu
Dawud *Book 37, Number 4310: *

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (pbuh) said: There is no prophet
between me and him, that is, Jesus (pbuh). He will descend (to the earth). When
you see him, recognize him: a man of medium height, reddish fair, wearing two
light yellow garments, looking as if drops were falling down from his head
though it will not be wet. He will fight the people for the cause of Islam. He
will break the cross, kill swine, and abolish jizya. Allah will perish all
religions except Islam. He will destroy the Antichrist and will live on the
earth for forty years and then he will die. The Muslims will pray over
him.

In the light of these hadith the explanations I have given of those verses and the fact that no where in Islam is the Christian second coming refuted therefore ... I conclude you are not accurately interpreting the Qur'an.

The arguments are so blatant that this is the reason why it was deemed fit to be included in the aqeedah and they knew that a fitnah will come where people will claim to be prophets ...

80

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

which of course is in such a glorious state otherwise… :clap:

LOL. These discussions are amusing. The fairytale that is being propagated is the only exception in all of human history yet there seems to be no proofs. However, you must believe it because the mullahs say so and if you don’t, you might loose limb or life. The really ridiculus part is that the burden of proof is on those who might be skeptical.

If only the great ‘ummah’ could learn a thing or two about live and let live. Then you guys could believe in any fairytale you wanted and we could persuade those who wanted to learn. But that is too hard and as soon as muslims have some power, live and let live is fast replaced with ‘my way or the highway.’

p.s. just to clarify, the ‘my way or the highway’ attitude wasn’t always there. But the comment is still aplicable to todays muslims.