Hazrat Isa A.S.

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

5:116 and 117

In 116, Allah questioned Jesus(as)

And when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?’”

This is the question now carefully look at the detailed answer by Jesus (as) in 116 and 117. It has four parts:
1) I could never say that to which I had no right
2) If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it.....
3) I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me — ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’
4) And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things.

we can discuss the highlighted part a little later but consider the answer. He covered all the aspects. consider the last part of his answer keeping in mind the original question.
why he(as) said that. 'When I was among them, I was watcher over them but after my tawaffee, You (Allah) was watcher over them.'. It is a declaration of clearing himself of even the very knowledge of this fact. He(as) had already answered that 1) he couldn't go beyond his mandate 2) that if he had done it Allah would have knowlege of it. 3) he preached only what he was asked by Allah and the final part shows his obliviousness as this deviation didn't happen under his watch and after his tawaffee only Allah knew what they were doing.

If he was aware of this act of his people before his tawaffee then fourth and final declaration by jesus(as) is meaningless.
it is analogous to a person's statement before his boss as 'I was aware of what is going on when I was with them but after my departure, only you knew what happened as you were watcher over them.'

This statement cannot fit for first and 2nd coming simultaneosly since in the first coming he was unaware of this fact (making Jesus(as) and his mother deities) but on his 2nd coming he must be aware of that deviant state of his people and needless to say that a prophet cannot lie before Allah.
In the light of this discussion, it should be evident that 'tawaffee' in that verse could only mean death.

In Bukhari kitab-ut-tafsir, a hadith is mentioned under the verse 5:117
**(on the judgment day), **some people from my(pbuh) ummah will be taken to hell then I will say
these are my sahaba. Answer will be; you don't know what they have been doing in your absence. I will say what a pious servant of Allah Isa(as) said: "I was watcher over them as long as I was among them but when you caused me to die then You(Allah) were watcher over them"

Pls note that:

  1. the holy prophet (pbuh) used exactly the same wording as is attributed to Isa (as) in 5:117. The holy prophet (pbuh) referred to the saying of Isa (as) as ‘FA AQULU KAMA QALA…” i.e., ‘I will say AS Jesus (as) said…”. So same meaning should be used for both prophets. not death for one and 'taking fully up' for the other
  2. In this hadith, the holy prophet (pbuh) clears himself from the responsibility of the acts of those people (in his (pbuh) absence)

I have tried to express my thoughts and I hope you will understand.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai

Ok just one question ... When we're these words said by Isa (AS) ... You started the quote off by "And when Allah will say ..."

When did Allah say that? I'm looking for a date ... That will confirm for me the proof that you have been asserting.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

^ what this has to do with what I presented. probably on the judgment day certainly after his(as) death.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai

It has everything to do with the core question ... Proof that Isa(as) has died as per Qur'an.

Now you gave me an ayat .... It states in that ayat that Isa (as) mentions his own death ... But for this to be proof that he (as) has died, is for you to prove that the time that this was said is before now.

Instead you are saying it has not actually taken place yet.

in which case we have two possible conditions from this ayat ...

A) That Isa (as) has died
B) That Isa (as) if he is still alive can still return, live the remainder of his life, die and then since Judgement Day will happen after that.

Where a statement cannot pinpoint the actual thing we are looking for, which is that Isa (as) is not alive now and has died before now, then it cannot be called proof.

So please show either that this event has already occurred or another verse that shows Isa (as) has died.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

^ pls read my answer again. I don't want to repeat myself. B is not even a probability as per my explaination

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

I'm not interested in your interpretation of the verse ... You are adding meanings to it and extrapolating conclusions from your added meanings ... I need proof ... As per Qur'an not as per your interpretation ... You were boldly claiming you had this proof ... So present it, please.

Also ... I'm not interested in those verses that say tawaffee ... Mawt is the word for death!

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

In the light of this word tawaffee in this verse .... I contest that this is even about his second coming at all ... It is about his first coming and the point until he was raised. It is not about his (as) death at all.

I'm still waiting for this proof!

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

oh really. I am not interested in your twisted logic either. proof is there for the seeing eye.

[QUOTE]

Personally I believe there has been asystematic change of meaning of that word from the historical context of hadith... Today it is being treated as analogous to mawt - which in fact at the timeof the Qur'an it was not ...

[/QUOTE]

This is news to me.Could you please substantiate your claim? I have more than dozen verses that usethis word to mean death. Even if you take it in more general terms, Quran takesit only in terms of Qabz-e-roh and never as Qabz-e-jism.
Just a wild thought,if ‘tawafee’ as applied to the case of Jesus(as) is ‘to be fully taken up’ whenhe was lifted alive with his body and spirit then during death or sleep whenonly roh is taken, do you think that it is a improper usage of ‘tawaffee’

Just for the sake of my knowledge, could you please tell me where did you get this translation of ‘tawaffee’ i.e., ‘to be taken up’? (btw,you omitted ‘fully’ from the meaning; intentionally or unintentionally?) pls do not quote from some contemporary biased dictionary.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai

There is contention on this word ... That is a fact ... The proof however is not ...I'm still waiting for the proof, you keep trying to divert my attention from the main question.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

In my post I said, translation has been taken in view of hadiths also.

Also, translation "if possible" for ascension then this becomes moot point. One group takes it as A and other takes it as B.

You are saying 'ascension' cannot be the meaning of the word, lots of translators do. They base this meaning of other evidences like hadiths.

Now you can reject those hadiths to fit the meaning of your liking that is up to you.

Last part of my post was the answer to the argument that Allah somehow is bound to natural laws.

Allah CAN do anything. Who are we to say "Allah cannot break natural laws?" Allah has broken many what we call 'laws of nature' as you know.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

4:158 Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

About return/second coming of Issa AS:

43:61 And indeed, Jesus will be [a sign for] knowledge of the Hour, so be not in doubt of it, and follow Me. This is a straight path.

Many translators have explained this to be talking about His second coming as there are hadiths of His AS second coming close to the last day of judgement.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

this thread serves intrest of only one sect .....

GS doesn't allow discussion about them then y this covert discussion to serve their purpose.............

ISA alehi salam is alive and this is faith of majority muslim ummah

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

As far as I understand, its about what Quran says about Issa AS one aspect of life. Not about the whole religion.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

this question was not discussed by muslim ummah....

but it is now discussed to serve particular sect.....

this type of questions created to disturb iman of ummah

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace diwana

May Allah (SWT) reward you and grant you the status of defender of the faith ... This is truly clear sign that Isa (as) will appear in the Last hour, which only started after RasoolAllah (saw).

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Which ahadith are you talkin about in which the word is to be taken as took oneself bodily up ? I would kindly like to have a look. Perhaps you did not find it necessary to see the same word used in the verses that i provided, but its ok.

thats the last explanation you could come up with, and i somehow sensed it as well. Allah CAN do everything. When did i deny this fact ? but i did also say that Allah himself that 'you will not find alteration or changes in his ways'. The laws that you think Allah himself broke are recorded in Quran. What is so hard to understand? why is it that i have to believe what is not in quran ? if so and so can happen , so can the other ? really?

Perhaps you didnt also have nothing to say about the first verse that i presented. I asked you a couple of questions from it but u just like to ignore it. That was what i asked. But its ok, fine by me.

[QUOTE]
The conversation between jesus(as) and Allah in the verse is going to happen on the day of judgement. He(as) will say , that he was a witness over them as long as he was among them.. not after. He(as) is not aware of what his followers are following. Why wont Jesus(as) say that I just went back to them and told them what they should be believing? As far as your translation of 'took me up' , refer to the verses i provided. Also, do explain what does 'took me up' refer to? bodily or His(as) soul ?
[/QUOTE]

Regarding 4:158 verse, i will comment on it tomorrow.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mr.Popat

Simple as this > The word "tawaffee" is not literally "death" it is used in allegory to mean death today ... but actually means "taken up" ... In the past it was used in both contexts, but today people generally use it to mean death ... but literally it does not mean death - etymologically it does not mean death at all.

It's like saying in English that "taken up" means "death" we can see how they can be made to be taken in the same sense, but we will have to resign to the fact that these are two different terms ...

So this is the first level of debate (the meaning of the term)

The second level is that even if the term "tawaffee" is taken as death ... EVEN THEN ... the words of the Qur'an do not explicitly say that the "tawaffee" has happened yet or not - simply that Allah (SWT) will do it or that Allah (SWT) had done before Judgement Day ...

So the only resort is your appeal to common law of life expectancy ... this is the only thing you have in your favour ...

But we resist due to inference from other verses like the "sign of the last hour" and from hadith that he (AS) will descend and finally that there was no documented debate with Christians at the time that he (AS) is NOT AT THE RIGHT SIDE OF GOD IN HEAVEN ... that the Christian have believed since he (AS) left this world.

Then we have early scholars confirming this fact and our masters of 'aqeedah Imam At-Tahawi for example making this belief a criterion for our faith ... There is absolutely no budging from us on this one .... I hope you realise that !!!

Furthermore if we entertain the alternatives ... i.e. he was crucified but saved from death and then lived on for a few years then died ... is a lame argument.

The Bible says Jesus' will be called Immanuel - i.e. God Saves ... That he will be saved from harm by the angels ... they will not let a stone strike him ... as confirmed in the account of the tempting ...

Errata - Immanuel means God With Us ...

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

my comments/questions were pretty relevant. you commented on tawaffee and I responded. I think you want your word to be taken as such without substance. sorry, I can't do this.
I have presented some evidence and I may present more evidence from Quran but I seriously think that would be a total waste of time and energy. but still I will do that slowly since I don't have the liberty of sitting on these forums all day long.

You are keep on asking about proof. the burden of proof is on you not on us. bring your proof on his life.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

[quote]

The Bible says Jesus' will be called Immanuel - i.e. God Saves ... That he will be saved from harm by the angels ... they will not let a stone strike him ... as confirmed in the account of the tempting ...

[/QUOTE]

I don't know why there is so much emphasis on that Jesus(as) was not supposed to be even hurt. let me present you the following verse and translations from your folks

005.067
**YUSUFALI: O Messenger! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. **And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.
PICKTHAL: O Messenger! Make known that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord, for if thou do it not, thou wilt not have conveyed His message. Allah will protect thee from mankind. Lo! Allah guideth not the disbelieving folk.
SHAKIR: O Messenger! deliver what bas been revealed to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people.

Allah promised the holy prophet (pbuh) to be protected from people but we all know that people were able to hurt him. Why? what do you say now. don't say I am saying something irrelevant.

We think Allah promised his prophet(pbuh) that people will not be able to kill him or perhaps keep people from inflicting irreparable damage to him

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And Allah (SWT) defended Muhammad (SAW) from men ... i.e. from their mischief against him ... with revelation .... from which includes "slander" and to some degree "physical" protection ... but the difference is that Isa (AS) was not protected against the men from their mischief but was totally physically protected from their intent to harm him. The words are far more explicit in the case of Isa (AS).