Hazrat Isa A.S.

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

I never said you said "they killed him" AS. The reason I posted the verse is that is where his AS crucifixion was talked about in Quran.

I also said that your position was incorrect AFAIK. Read below further.

Can you please post those 'many verses'?

Many thanks. But please do not worry about my time. :)

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

yes i will certainly do that. I have done it before in various other threads but not a problem. I will present my side of it again.

But, I didnt get your answer whether or not you consider all the prophets mentioned in Quran as dead, even if their death is not mentioned ?

23

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Bhai sahab we are not talking about anyone but Issa AS.

Let me clarify again:

I am not talking about any other prophet at present.

I am not talking about how Issa AS might have died.

At present: Only your statement here is in discussion where you said Quran mentioned (specifically) that he's **(Issa AS) **no longer alive.

Nothing less nothing more at present.

You said there are many verses for THAT.

Please read your statement above which you actually repeated and I made that red. Thank you. :)

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

The hadith regarding Jesus(as) would mean something else if in Quran there is no mention of him being physically taken up and or still being alive. Its hard for me to believe that you've never thought about it the way i've always tried to make you think. Do not take one verse from Quran, interpret it your way and then look at hadith to make sense. The verse you interpret as taken up bodily alive, if you take a look at that arabic word and apply it to other verses in Quran where the same word is used many many times, you cannot say in every verse that God meant 'taken up bodily'. Kindly, please do look into it.

Theres no problem me believing in Isa(as)'s virgin birth because its mentioned in Quran in a very clear and precise manner. What kind of philosophy is this that if one has happened, then so can the other, when theres no mention of it? But in the contrary, there are verses in Quran from which one can conclude he is no more alive.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

diwana sahab , with all due respect.. as i said i will present to you the verses which i believe are proof enough for a sane mind to conclude that He(as) is no more alive. You said earlier by quoting me saying that " Quran doesnt say hes no more alive ". My question to you was.. do you believe all the prophets mentioned in Quran to be alive, for whom Allah did not specifically said they're dead ? I dont think it'll take you long to answer that.

Please keep visiting this thread as i will be presenting some verses for you to ponder upon :)

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

This is for you, dewana. First verse... Please take a look at chapter 5 verse 116 and 117. I am not goin to copy/paste verse here since you may take the translation of it differently. Do let me know what you think about the latter verse i.e 117. Again, its 5:116-117. Thanks .

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Please finish what you have to present.

You said many verses. If you are done then let me know.Thank you. :)

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Post the verses here.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

you guys are just fighting on hazrat Isa A.S.

After Prophet Muhammad(pbuh), there is no prophet as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said, “if there was to be a Prophet after me it would have been Omar ibn al Khattab.”

Prophet Isa will surely come again, but as a follower of Prophet Muhammd(pbuh).

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

aoa bro, Yes we know that but there are no reliable hadiths AFAIK that tells us that Jesus(as) is alive, he ascended to heavens and alive up there. The hadiths talks about 'Nuzul' but there is no explicit mention of descent from skies. 'Nuzul' has been used in Quran for other meanings as well. for instance. it has been used for iron in 57:25 and for cattle in 39:7 as the blessing of Allah. your assertion that concept of jesus (as) being alive up in heavens doesn't conflict Quran is untrue.

[quote]

I find it weird that on one hand you believe that Isa (AS) can be born of a virgin by some natural process that is as yet hidden to science, but do not conclude that Isa(AS) can still be alive by a natural process that is as yet hidden to science.

For us the Ascension and Miraculous Birth of Isa (AS) are both miracles and we assert that we believe them even when science is incapable of EVER being able to explain them.
[/QUOTE]

We firmly believe that Jesus(as) was born fatherless and his mother was a very pious lady and his fatherless birth was not just a miracle but a warning sign to the bani israel. having said that, I would reiterate that we are not bringing science here. Yes, there could be many realities scientific or otherwise that are still hidden from us. but there are various realities mentioned in the Quran that we cannot ignore and just rely on hadiths.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Yes i said many verses, and i did say 'first verse'. If you havent even looked at the first verse then why do u expect me to mention more than that? if u have anything to say about the verses, then please bring it forward or nothing will be enough for you.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai

You didn’t answer my question, why is it considered hidden science about Isa (as)'s birth and not hidden science about his Ascension and living without death thus far?

Your reasoning in the first part of your answer is a typical logical fallacy, of the form Red Herring
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

You introduced the topic of Nuzul, when I was talking about him (as) being alive, by saying that the Qur’an makes other items also classed as Nuzul, therefore you have made another fallacy with an inappropriate analogy claiming that because this applies to this therefore my conclusion is wrong … Without qualifying the relationship. Then you conclude somehow after talking about Nuzul and random other matters that my claim of Qur’an not conflicting with Hadith on this matter is untrue …how you came to that conclusion without even addressing the Hadith or the Qu’an on the matter of him(as) being alive is beyond me …

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

So simply put you are done. You did not mention 3:55.

OK.

Here is what you mentioned.

005.117 "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

Al-Qur'an, 005.116-117 (Al-Maeda )

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?’” He will say, “Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what You commanded me – to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. (Surah 5:116-117)

There are many translations of 3:55 which do state him AS being raised. And many which use the translation as "ending His AS term on earth and causing the return". Some use the term as 'death'. But not the majority.

3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

3:55 when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

Same has ocurred with 3:144.

3:144 Muhammad is no more than a Rasul, surely the Rasuls before him have already passed away. If then he dies or be killed, will you turn upon your heels?…

But

Other translations which seem more appropriate do not say "already passed away".

3-144 ‘And Muhammad is but a messenger, there have been messengers before him. So, if he dies or is killed, would you turn back on your heels?’

Many other arguments like natural laws of life are made and examples are given such as Allah does not claim to break the rules in some specific verses like in Surah Rahman. But those arguments are very weak.

*Allah CAN and HAS broken seemingly natural laws. One who makes laws can break them too.
*

I think if someone takes hadiths also in view and read the translations by majority scholars, one can see there is no real evidence of 'death' per se of Issa AS by Quran.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

The Qur'an has come as clarification for previous scripture ... Where previous scripture is absent on a topic Qur'an speaks about it, where previous scripture is mistaken about a topic the Qur'an speaks of what really happened ... when it comes to discerning the truth of previous scriptures we gauge that from hadith and to a certain extent by induction or inference from the Qur'an.

For example:

Isa (AS) spoke as a baby in the cradle ... not present in the previous scripture ... but the wisdom in speaking about this is to remove the blame on Maryam (AS) that was prevelant in Jewish oral traditions. According to the narrative of the birth of Isa (AS) there is clear negation of the presence of Joseph the Carpenter stating that Maryam (AS) was in khalwa and alone bore the child prophet in the presence of angels under a date palm near a stream.

You see clarifications galore !!!

Also, regarding Isa (AS) claiming to be God - Qur'an states in no ambiguous terms that Isa (AS) never claimed that.
Also, regarding the virgin birth as a result confirms this truth as per the New Testament, but at the same time uses more beautiful language, without using the idea of God fathering (auzdubillah) a child, but making a servant.

Also, regarding the crucifixion ... Although the Bible confirms this occurence, the Qur'an denies it happened in the way it was perceived to have happened by the narrators. That their sight evaded them the truth of what really happened.

However, when the Bible clearly states that Isa (AS) is in heaven ... the Qur'an says that "We will raise you" ... it does not use the word "death" i.e. mawt for him ... until a point where it mentions the future i.e. on the Day of Judgement which will make all time spent on earth "past tense" ... The Qur'an and hadith both allow this understanding of him (AS) being alive in heaven to exist. There is nothing in clear terms stating that Isa (AS) did not Ascend to heaven rather as per hadith there are many references for the Second Coming ...

The wisdom in stating that Isa (AS) will eventually die or be given death is to show that his being alive is temporary and he will eventually die - thus not sharing any resemblance to The Divine ...

It is even more interesting that the Second Coming of Isa (AS) is supported by those who deny that Isa (AS) is still alive ... why they choose to believe the hadith aspects for his Second Coming and yet reject that he is still alive means they are picking and choosing which parts of the SAME hadith they agree with and which parts they do not ... they wish to relegate the idea of Second Coming (which the orthodox take literally) to another person (i.e. allegorical meaning) and want to take the ambiguous term of "tawaffee" in its contemporary understanding as "death" rather than "to be taken up" ...

Personally I believe there has been a systematic change of meaning of that word from the historical context of hadith ... Today it is being treated as analogous to mawt - which in fact at the time of the Qur'an it was not ...

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

I don’t know why are you unnecessary trying to complicate things. We simply don’t believe in Ascension and living Jesus (as) in heavens since it is against the verdict of Quran simply put. Evidence was presented before you. I will do it again.
You can keep on waiting for him generations after generations but rest assure he is not coming back.](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html)

You didn’t make your case either and make a random statement that your belief doesn’t conflict with Quran. It conflicts with Quran when Quran provides proof of the death of jesus (as). I will address the Quranic evidence first.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Will his status be prophet when he comes again? If not then why so much fuss about him, as it is not compulsory upon a person to believe in him to being a muslim. Articles of faith are only to believe in Allah, Angels, Books, Prophets and Day of judgement to be a muslim.

And your this belief goes against Quran, as Quran calls him prophet. So will he abolish that verse when he comes again? Which means he will change Hadhrat Muhammad (saw) Sharia and implement his own sharia. So my friend, this belief that he will come back as ummati and not as prophet is totally contradictory to Quran and you won't find any safe haven with your this belief.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai

You said:

I am not contesting whether Qur'an provides proof of the death of Isa (AS) ... I am asking whether the Qur'an provides proof that Isa (AS) has already died ... that death (HAS ALREADY) come to Isa (AS). If this is what you are saying then I would like to see that proof please.

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

To clarify on the point made by STA:

Isa (AS) will by title and by right remain Messenger Masih Isa (AS) ... but in practice he (AS) will be a follower ... i.e. he will not bring new revelation, nor will he (AS) remove the scriptures we have today, but I do believe that he (AS) will be able to help us work out our differences and unify us on a dogmatic level. He will be in the position to tell us the correct interpretation of the Ayaat and Hadith we already have ...

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Why are you assuming that im done? There are many verses so far that i havent mentioned. All i asked you is to give your opinion about the verse i mentioned. There are few questions that you should really ask yourself about the verses above. You emphasized more on 'you took me up', but do you know which arabic word in that verse you're translating as 'took me up'. It is the word 'tawaffi'. If i were to give you 5/6 more verses from Quran using that word, can you translate those for me as 'took/take me up'? Lets try this.. shall we?

Surah Baqrah 234 , 240
Surah Al Imran 193
Surah An nisa 97
Surah Yousaf 101.

I can provide you more than that , but lets just suffice to that for now. If you're sincere about debate, and really are looking to know the truth, then please do look into the verses where the word tawaffi/ tawaffana is used, the same word/phrase which you translated as 'you took me up'. Please translate the same way for the verses i mentioned. Thanks

Now, that was that. Lets review the verses again. The conversation between jesus(as) and Allah in the verse is going to happen on the day of judgement. He(as) will say , that he was a witness over them as long as he was among them.. not after. He(as) is not aware of what his followers are following. Why wont Jesus(as) say that I just went back to them and told them what they should be believing? As far as your translation of 'took me up' , refer to the verses i provided. Also, do explain what does 'took me up' refer to? bodily or His(as) soul ?

[QUOTE]
There are many translations of 3:55 which do state him AS being raised. And many which use the translation as "ending His AS term on earth and causing the return". Some use the term as 'death'. But not the majority.

3:55 Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

3:55 when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

[/QUOTE]

Again, the word used there is tawaffi. Please do look into the meaning of the word and not just blindly take it as 'raise thee to myself' or 'took me up'. If by raise you , you mean to heavens, then can you kindly please tell me since when did Allah say hes only in heavens ? was Allah not where Jesus(as) was being crucified ? Allah takes away people's soul and not body... taken to him... utha liya geya... dead... spirit gone to heaven etc.. It is the righteousness that reaches Allah, righteousness of spirit, and not the body. Allah is not at one particular place. You are limiting Allah's quality of omnipresent.

[QUOTE]
Same has ocurred with 3:144.

3:144 Muhammad is no more than a Rasul, surely the Rasuls before him have already passed away. If then he dies or be killed, will you turn upon your heels?…

But

Other translations which seem more appropriate do not say "already passed away".

3-144 ‘And Muhammad is but a messenger, there have been messengers before him. So, if he dies or is killed, would you turn back on your heels?’

Many other arguments like natural laws of life are made and examples are given such as Allah does not claim to break the rules in some specific verses like in Surah Rahman. But those arguments are very weak.

*Allah CAN and HAS broken seemingly natural laws. One who makes laws can break them too.
*

I think if someone takes hadiths also in view and read the translations by majority scholars, one can see there is no real evidence of 'death' per se of Issa AS by Quran.
[/QUOTE]

yea, so there have been messengers before him who has gone through the same as Muhammad PBUH have (death). The verse is pretty self explanatory.

I find your bold statement very fascinating. Allah can and has broken seemingly natural laws. Natural laws which you think are broken are mentioned in Quran, therefore, they are there... I find it very weird that you're convinced that if so and so can happen, then so can the ascension, when there is no mention of any such event anywhere in Quran. I beg to differ that who makes laws cannot break them too. I dont see authorities making laws and regulations in the world who dont have to abide by their own laws. Do you know anyone ? No, im not comparing Allah's power with earthly power of people but even Allah says that 'thou wilt not find any change in our way' (17:77).

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Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

:)
Isa AS of Nazareth, the messenger which was sent some 2012 years ago, will remain a messenger of Allah AND ALSO just remain the prophet sent to bani israel. Since there is sufficient evidence from Quran, the verses which i occasionally share with you, that Jesus(as) is no longer alive, then for sure Promised Messiah is to be from Muslim Ummah, as he must be a follower of Islam according to you ( will not add/subtract anything from scriptures) . Promised Messiah is very much in position to tell us all the correct interpretation of the ayaats and ahadith that we all differ from each other. I'm glad you believe that.. but merely believing is not enough. One should see if there is someone who is presenting you the correct interpretation of verses and hadith or not, and if the error is on your side for not believing it or the person who is presenting you , and inviting you to the truth. Because, remember, Quran's words are only to be remained, and its correct meaning will be lost, hence the need of someone to reform Islam. If every belief was same as 1450 years ago, then we needed not any Messiah to come help us tell the correct interpretation about anything.