Hazrat Isa A.S.

Society Religion & Philosophy
181

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

You've made many claims here ... so why don't you begin ... What are the make beliefs being reiterated? Why should your opinion be any more valid than mine?

182

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

peace psyah,

It is ok for you to make interpretations of Quranic verses as you like. Actually, in this case, you are putting your ideas at a higher precedence and trying to fit Quran as your liking. What is the basis of your saying that the 'cause thee to die a natural death', the first promise, has not happened yet. It is a pure conjecture and it goes against this verse. The words of Allah are not ordinary and even the order in which certain facts are presented is full of meaning. 3:55, says. 'I will cause thee to die' and 'will raise thee'. Now if death has not happened yet then 'Rafa' hasn't happened yet either. Here people rely on the crutches of 'Taqdeem-o-takheer' and put 'rafa' before death. This amounts to manipulation of the word of Allah, nothing less.

If we resort to your meaning 'I will take you up' then the translation becomes pretty strange and beyond eloquence. see
'I will take you up and will raise you...'

183

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

psyah also has to tell us the 3rd way of Allah taking up.

1) sleep
2) death
3) ?unknown?

184

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai

I've already explained this ... If it means "I will cause you to die" then the words since being in future tense do not provide any information of whether the death itself has happened yet ... I'm not interpreting anything. I'm only stating the limit of the claim we can make given the language in Arabic grammar.

Unless you can provide a statement that says "I caused him to die" or "he was caused to die" ...where the setting is in our past ... Then there no way to determine that death has happened.

Now for translation ...

"I will take you and raise you up to Me"

Take you here can mean protect you, fulfil my promise to you, or take you away from that danger ..

Raise you up to Me - would hence mean to heaven, or a heavenly domain.

According to some the combination could mean cause to go in to a sleep and lifted bodily out of this realm.

It could also mean taken as a whole person and elevated and thereby raised in rank.

It is not too hard to work out the subtle meanings for both ...

185

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

The object being taken in both cases according to the grammar is the person ... The pronoun is used.

The taking of someone can be understood either literally ... Or metaphorically ..

Metaphorically there are two possibilities

A) whilst the person sleeps their soul is taken (not 'them') as the words suggest but only their soul to another place, without (taking the life) ... The soul only being a part of 'them' ...

B) the taking of the life itself can happen which also leads on to the soul being taken out of 'them' rather than their whole selves taken as the bare words suggests.

Then literally:

C) is to take the words at face value ... 'The taking of them' ... Them inferring their person body and soul.

186

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

In 3:144, It is stated that
“And Muhammad is only a Messenger. Verily, (all) Messengers have passed away before him. If then he die or be slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful”
During the battle of ohad, a rumor was spread that the holy prophet (pbuh) has been martyred and this caused consternation in the ranks of the muslims. This verse refers to that very incident and says that the prophet (as) is just a messenger of Allah. There have been messengers before him and his case will not be different from the rest. It is stated that if the messenger (pbuh) dies or gets killed, this should not make the believers falter in their beliefs. Now pls note that ‘getting killed’ was not an option for the case of the holy prophet (pbuh). Why ? because 3:111 states,
“They cannot harm you save a slight hurt; and if they fight you, they shall show you their backs. Then they shall not be helped”.
And 5:67 “…And Allah will protect thee from people…”
In 3:144, the option of getting killed is mentioned in general terms for the holy prophet(pbuh) as being a messenger of Allah. Messengers pass away or leave this world by
1) Natural death
2) Getting killed i.e., being martyred.
When the holy prophet (pbuh) passed away, hazrat umar(ra) stood up, drew his sword and said that ‘whoever will say that the prophet(pbuh) is dead, I will cut off his head. He(pbuh) has gone to his Lord and will come back and take care of the hypocrites’. When abu bakr(ra) came there. Kissed prophet’s forehead and said ‘….Allah will not bring two deaths on thee..’ then he addressed the muslims starting with the verse 3:144
Hearing this verse, it became crystal clear to all including hazrat umar(ra) that the holy prophet(pbuh) indeed has passed away. Not a single soul raised any voice against this very fact or offered deliberations for instance, if Jesus (as) could have been alive why not the holy prophet (pbuh). This verse completely discouraged all sort of possibilities that were popping in the mind of Umar(ra) and other sahabas. Everyone accepted this painful fact that the holy prophet(pbuh) has passed away and will not come again.
This was only possible because this verse leave no room for any sort of exception and made it clear that the holy messenger (pbuh) was a messenger of Allah and he has passed away like the messengers before him. There is no exception among the messengers in this case. They pass away from this world by death (natural or otherwise). No other option available or possible.

187

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai

You have missed out a lot from your discussion above. You make it seem that if I believe Isa (AS) cannot die ...:)

No ... For a surety prophets have died or been killed ... And there is no chance I will turn on my heels ... InshaAllah not under any notion ... My choice to believe in the living state of Isa (AS) is because of very different reasons to why Sayyidina Umar (RA) chose to deny the death of RasoolAllah (SWT).

First of all we can see Umar(RA)'s situation was an emotional one ... There was the holy body there in front of him. Yet he still denied the obvious ... But also because it didn't dawn on him about the verse.

I believe in the second coming of Isa(as) himself ... And I totally agree with Sayyidina Abu Bakr (RA) that Allah (SWT) will not give his prophets death twice ... So if Isa(as) is coming back he has not died yet.

This verse is addressed to the people who had emerged out of mushrik Arabia ... So they would not lapse ... Abu Bakr (ra) statement ... Sealed the understanding of Tawheed. Allah never dies !

I cannot believe in the death of Isa(as) as a past event because the signs are yet to be fulfilled of when he will return.

188

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

^

They have been fulfilled.

Read also Sura Al-Anbiya Verse 35, 36

Another question would be to you and your fellows that how can Isa (as) tell Allah that he did not know about the fact that he is worshipped on the day of judgement? Would he not know about it when he comes back? I want a clear answer.

Read Sura Al-Maryam, Verse 32:

"Allah has blessed me, wherever I'm, and he commanded me to pray and almsgiving as long as I live"

When Allah has taken him up where does he pray and to whom does he give alms?
Surely not Allah and not the dead and not the angels. Care to explain?

189

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Bigboi

We can go through this all again if you wish ...:) I'm beginning to like this now ...

As mentioned before the verses where you claim that Isa(as) was unaware of him being worshipped is totally false.

Of course Isa (as) is aware, was aware will know that people would deify him, but what he claims is not ignorance to it, but he (as) claims that he never asked them or taught them to worship him ...

This claiming ignorance to the fact ... you have made up that part. His witness is intended as a statement to say that he was an authority over them to control and guide them, but when he (as) was away he could not do that ... And appealed to Allah(SWT) to peer in to his heart to show to humanity that Isa(as) never claimed divinity and never asked to be worshipped.

Rather in the New Testament, he(as) warned his people not to follow people who bring a gospel otHer than his ... Meaning that he wanted them to uphold Tawheed ... So he knew that people would deify him while he would be away ...

Besides ... the signs of the Day of Judgement, particularly that one about mountains of gold at the Euphrates, to me that means the oil in Iraq ... This happened in the 1990s and is still happening ... And there are others too

190

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

We must see Qur'an to guide us on this issue. We should not just speculate that it could mean this or that. I provided you a verse in which Allah uses the word 'tawaffee' which in its literal meaning is 'taken away'

The Quranic verse is :

39:42 Allah takes away the souls of human beings at the time of their death; and during their sleep of those also that are not yet dead. And then He retains those against which He has decreed death, and sends back the others till an appointed term. In that surely are Signs for a people who reflect

We must only take that word as metaphorically. Where ever the word 'tawaffee' is used, its for soul. We cant interpret Qur'an according to our liking. The 2 possibilities of Allah taking up soul is death and sleep. Tell me where did Allah say that he 'take up' (tawaffee) someone bodily too? You will not see a single verse where the word tawaffee is used where it did not mean taken one's soul.

case A and case B is what Allah talks about. In both these cases, the physical body remains on Earth.

Your case C is totally out of question. You just made this up. There is nothing you can back up that statement with.

191

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

you have your feet in 2 boats. Clear your understanding, and clear your belief regarding Isa(as). At one point, you say hes taken up bodily and rafa’a mean raised him up to himself. Then you say He could also be sleeping and thereby raised in rank ?

The word tawaffee is used before rafa’a, therefore it means taken away, (their soul, as is suggested in the verse 39:42), either by sleep or death. And raf’aa means to raise one status.

You said it means ’ i will take you and raise u up to me '. Thats like repeating same thing.
"i will cause you to die( take your soul away ), and exalt you to myself. "

See the following ahadith to clear your understanding about the word rafa’a. ( exalt you to myself )

192

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace be upon you psyah,

why are you making it so hard for yourself?

(5:118)

"I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me — ‘Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.’ And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou hast been the Watcher over them; and Thou art Witness over all things"

He did not know that they would be worshipping him. If so he would've made Prophecies like Muhammad (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) or did he anywhere say that he'll be worshipped? There is nothing like a New Testament. They New Testament itself is filled with flaws.

Don't worry about the day of judgement. Worry about yourself. You have not given me an answer which would be rated as satisfiyng. On the one side orthodox Muslims believe that the Bible has been corrupted an on the other side they take it as a source of evidence? How come? You have not given me a explanation to the Verse 32 of Sura Maryam. Care to explain where Isa (as) son of Mary is giving alms? To Allah, to the dead, to the angels? Where is he praying? Why does he need to pray when he in fact is with Allah?

here is something for you...

**Khuda ne paak qalam Muhammad (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him) ko Diya
Mere sathio, murdon me se hai wo jisne iska inkar Kardiya

Khuda ne beja dunya pe Rehmat-ul-Alameen
Bas hogi ik paal me Zinda murda Zameen

Utt ge asmaan taraf deen ke Sitaare
le ayaa Ghulam Ahmad ka wapis Saare**

193

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mr.Popat

I disagree with your methodology and your general idea of what is allowed in the science of grammar.

When I hear the words "take him" there is no interpretation required ... only where there is a context which requires that to be interpreted it is ...

You are using the idea of souls being taken by Allah (SWT) as the ONLY types of "taking" permitted by using this verse as an example. Apart from the translation itself not being quite right ... you are making a grave error.

a) No where in this verse or elsewhere does it says this is the ONLY way people are taken - or tawaffee occurs.
b) This is the general case, but Isa (AS) is the exception - You will note throughout the Qur'an statements are applied in the pattern of things that normally happen ... but they do not overrule the exceptions. It is the agreed understanding of the Qur'an that laws and injunctions are spoken of in the general sense, but specifics about exceptions it is often silent on them.

For this reason if something is absent in the Qur'an then we cannot conclude that it CANNOT happen ... only when the Qur'an specifically says something cannot happen we take that as a rule.

So verse 39:42 may omit that information that you seem to be desperately seeking, but I contest whether it is even needed because the meaning of taking as a whole is more obvious than not ... If a child read the words "Allah took him" the first thing the child will ask is "where did he take him to?" ... No explanation needed. 39:42 qualifies a type of taking for the majority of cases in the Qur'an ... but according to the orthodoxy they do not apply to Isa (AS) and there are other verses and hadith to back up that conclusion.

194

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Mr.Popat

Even you know from a previous post what my position is … I was merely speaking about alternative translations still being inadequate for us to conclude that Isa (AS) has DIED - (pass tense) …

There is no 2 boats about it … For me Isa (AS) is physically in a heavenly realm … but if he is not based on other suggestions for the translation - even then you cannot conclude that Isa (AS) has died already. The latter idea is grammatically weak and sick … because if something was not to be out of the ordinary then there is no point in mentioning it as if it was out of the ordinary. And the Word of Allah is beyond such positions.

195

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Bigboi

This is wrong ... Isa (AS) is denying ever teaching the people to worship him, he is not denying knowledge of the fact that they worship him. He is also appealing to the idea that they must have started worshiping him (AS) in his absence where he could not monitor them and tell them off.

You are totally misreading this verse in fact you are taking the impact of the meaning out of this verse ... it is nothing to do with his (AS) knowledge on the matter ...

It is to do with preserving the teachings of tawheed ... Isa (AS) point blank says he never told them anything other than tawheed ... whereas your version seems to be saying ... "I dunno what they were doing" ... this position takes the real impact out of what Isa (AS) is saying ... which is that while he was watching the people HE MADE SURE THEY DID NOT DO SHIRK WITH HIM ... while he was not with them HE COULDN'T MAKE SURE OF IT and that ALLAH ((SWT)) knows full well what is in his heart about what he portrayed to his people.

196

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace Psyah,
Focus for the time being on 'Raise you up to Me'. When we say that Jesus(as) was raised to Allah with body physically then we will have to admit that there was distance between him and Allah and Allah is stationed in space somewhere. Allah is limited in body. Do you like to believe in all this just to give life to jesus(as). When we say 'Ina lillahi was ina illahi rajeoon', we don't mean that we go back to Allah flying with our body. Allah is omnipresent. body cannot travel towrads Him. If it had been mentioned that 'raise thee to skies/heavens' then there could have ben a possibility not otherwise. Wherever going/raising towards Allah or returning towards Him is mentioned, it simply cannot mean to physical travel towards Him.
You said. "it would mean raising to heaven or heavenly domain'. this is also burdening the imagination too much. People who go to heavens don't take a flight to heavens.
Moreover, in 15:48, it is stated
"Fatigue shall not touch them there, nor shall they *ever *be ejected therefrom"
People who go to heaven will remain there and will not be removed from it. Will you seek another exception for Jesus(as) here to make a possibility of his 2nd coming.

197

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Just curious to see how it could be used:
scenario 1: A person in danger calls me for help. I in turn assures him that I will save you and take you out of it. and say 'Ini Mutawafeeqa'
scenario 2: I am standing on the roof and a friend of mine is standing down. He asks me to pull him up. I say 'Ini Mutawafeeqa'
I am sure in both the cases, I made wrong use of the words. I wish we had a arab among us to guide us here.

198

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

[quote]
If Allah (SWT) made this clear then I can't work out how the fitnah of the imposter would come about ... For a surety the fitnah of imposters comes about through the vague terms ...
[/quote]
Pls let me know other than Ahmadiyya, who made use of these 'vague' terms in their benefit. Moreover, 'Kiya is 'KHAIR-E-UMMAT' ki qismat main imposter or dajjal hi hain. kisi sache ne nahin aana'
As far as imposters are concerned, those who attribute falsehood to Allah and make claims and spread teachings falsely attributing them to Allah, Allah Himself takes care of them as He did throughout the history. Imposters don't prosper here or in the hereafter. Allah deals with them no matter how strong they may seem and no matter who is on their side. But for the truthful, the one who is sent by Allah and is planted by Himself, noone can uproot him or his mission. This is what we have witnesed throughout the history.

199

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai

Of course this creates the premise for an interesting side discussion. Distance between the person and Allah ... Of course this is quite easily answered.

Firstly there is evidence to suggest that the afterlife is a spiritual experience and we tend to want to argue that the physical has no share in it, otherwise many of the descriptions hold significant physical insights, for example resurrection with our bodies, and those in hell will have their skins burnt, which is where the pain receptors are according to our physical earthly existence.

The simple answer is that the Earth is called the low world, and there are physical boundaries to cross and other physical realms which are Higher than this one ... The analogy is that of Makkah compared to say Lahore ... People travel from Lahore to Makkah to visit the House of Allah, and do so physically. Does it mean that they have reduced the distance between themselves and Allah (SWT) ? Perhaps, spiritually, they have become closer, but this happened via a physical act.

So there is no reason NOT to conclude that physically leaving this world results in the phrase "going up to Him" but we must at the same time recognise that such a description cannot apply to Him, but to another abode that He has given higher rank. I prefer to view suh things in a quasi spiritual and physical coexistence and believe Allah (SWT) has the power to achieve such an end. In modern speech we would call it being taken out of this existence to a realm of higher spiritual status, because there are fewer veils there, but very much a place that can be physically occupied.

200

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai

Not just an Arab, but a grammarian or historian of Arabic. I mentioned to you the other day, the norms of Arabic as spoken today have shifted ... Only such people will be able to tell you what is possible in terms of its meaning when being used in such a context. But yes this should be reasonable ... Also the idea of alien abduction to add a third ...