Hazrat Isa A.S.

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

@lethal_kamikaze

Peace Mr.Popat,

As you wrote above: (1) Exalted him to Himself (2) exalted him to a lofty station.

Can’t you see the simple and bold differentiate between these two verses? Exalted to a lofty station that is understood but exalted his status and have given death? Yeh konsi logic use kr rahy ho

and how ‘rafa’a’ means exalted ones status? 'rafa’a means exalted. From where this ‘ones status’ came?

2:253 These Messengers** have We exalted, some of them above others**: among them there are those to whom Allah spoke; and some of them **He exalted by degrees of rank
**
4:158 On the contrary, Allah exalted him to Himself. And Allah is Mighty, Wise

The verse 4:158 is the continuation of the refutation to Jews that they killed Him on cross. One must know why jews wanted to kill Jesus(as). (so that they could say he was an accursed one (nauzubilah), and to degrade his status). Allah says jews did not succeed in killing Him or crucifying him, but in the contrary, Allah exalted his status ( they were not able to degrade his status ). Raf’aa when used for a person always means spiritually raising their status. Please see the following hadith where the word ‘rafa’a ullahu’ is used. Giving death is used in other verse that we’re discussing here, where the word ‘tawaffee’ is used.

@lethal_kamikaze

Well If I translate as per yours then the transltaion of [19:57] will be: **“And we exalted his status/rank to a lofty station” **. I think we can’t use both ‘his’ and ‘him’ at one time, right. That translation doesn’t make sense as why his “status/rank” exalted to a lofty station? why not “him”? But if we translate the same verse by using “him” than it will be “And we exalted him to a lofty station” which means he exalted to a lofty station alongwith his status/rank. Right. He can’t leave his status/rank back there.

Allah SWT exalted Hazrat Isa a.s. to Himself same as Prophet (with his status and rank i.e. prophency) and whan Hazrat Isa a.s. will come back, means when he will descendent to this earth he will be descended alongwith his status/rank i.e. the same prophency. So there is NO new Prophet After Muhammad . Like you said earlier “We both consider him to be khataman nabiyeen, the seal of the prophets” If yu consider and believe Prophet Muhammad is ‘Khataman nabiyeen’ then there should be no doubt of coming back of Hazrat Isa a.s.

I think you’re confused. I’m using both status and rank as an interchangeable term. “we exalted him to a lofty station”. That one was used for Hazrat Idris (as). Lofty station referring to some level of heaven. Yes, indeed the rank/status ( of prophethood ) was with Him and therefore due to some of his righteous deeds, Allah exalted Him to a lofty station. Allah exalt some messenger’s ranks over others as i posted a verse above. (2:253).

Yes, i do believe Muhammad PBUH to be the khaaman nabiyeen, the seal of the prophets. So do you. I am not denying the fact that Muhammad PBUH foretold about someone who will come AFTER him.. neither are you. The whole issue is, if its the same jesus(as) sent to bani israel or did muhammad pbuh mean a new prophet within His ummah? If your belief of Jesus(as) coming after Muhammad PBUH does not interfere with your belief of last prophet, why if i hold the same belief but not of the old prophet but rather new, i’m considered as not being talkin Islam, even if i provide you tons and tons of evidence from Quran ? Thats beyond my understanding.

2:129 And, our Lord, raise up among them a Messenger from among themselves, who may recite to them Thy Signs and teach them the Book and Wisdom and may purify them; surely, Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

@psyah

Yes the word "tawaffee - itself can mean physically taken up" - wake up bro - this is my claim --- "Allah (SWT) swore to Isa (AS) "I shall take you up" and that I admit can mean after death occurs ... but for sure you cannot overrule the idea that you take it just as you read it ... "that He (SWT) will take him (AS) up to heaven" ...

ok, good thing is.. you are admitting something. Your whole argument about giving one word a whole total new meaning when it comes to Jesus(as) is beyond ignorance. You fail to provide me even 1 verse in which Allah meant tawaffee as taking whole body up to heavens, other than when it applies to Jesus(as).

Tawaffee = taking up.. taking up what ? ( it doesnt say body ), so its soul !.. wen is soul taken up? death and sleep. It is as easy as that.

@psyah

If only you understood Arabic grammar my friend ...

List out the f'il (verb), faa'il (doer), and maf'ool (object) in every case this word is used and you will see what I mean by "death DOES tawaffee" ... if death DOES tawaffee then death cannot BE tawaffee ...

:)

Its not just me not understanding grammar, but rather 6 other translators who are translating the same word as 'taking up soul' or death. Either you are correct and all else wrong or they are all right and you're not.

Maududi said u cant just take that verse and conclude that Isa(as) was taken up bodily to heaven. I posted that page for you to see as well.

Death does tawaffee .. death cannot be tawaffee? what !?!

tawaffee simply means 'taking up'. Tell me the 3rd way of Allah taking up, other than death and sleep. You never seem to answer my questions.. I also asked, if in both cases, the body remains on earth or not? but then again, you are yet to show me the 3rd case in which Allah take someone up... I'm still waiting for that.

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

@lethal_kamikaze

Peace Mr.Popat,

As you wrote above: (1) Exalted him to Himself (2) exalted him to a lofty station. .

Also, see this verse
[3:56] When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself.. ( part of a long verse).

This is how the translation of it should be. In that verse, both tawaffee and rafa'a is used. It will not make sense if you say tawaffee is taking up, and then rafa'a means taking up again.

Tawaffee came before rafa'a. It means, Allah will cause him to die and then will exalt his status/rank (as a prophet), and if you read the whole verse, it says :

*
and will clear thee from the charges of those who disbelieve, and will place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve, until the Day of Resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, and I will judge between you concerning that wherein you differ.
*Therefore, Allah will clear him from the charges Jews put on him ( of being illegitimate , nauzubillah ).. how will he do that ? by raising his status/rank ( as a prophet ).. and Allah cleared his charges in Qur'an( by telling about his birth, and him being a true prophet ). And, Allah remains truthful in his promise that He will place those who follw you above those who disbelieve. ( Muslims and Christians being His followers, are above those who disbelieve in Him, i.e: jews ).

Just taking one word and interpreting it your way and neglecting the whole Quran is not the sign of a momin.

[psyah]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

@kchughtai

Yes there are hadiths but we have a precedent in the bible uncontested in the Quran that prophet malachi prophecised about the coming of Elijah the prophet. Prophet Elijah had lived around 9 B.C. Malachi lived centuries after Elijah.

The prophecy is stated as
**Malachi 3:1
“See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.
**

Malachi 4:5 “See, I will send theprophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.”

In the New Testament, it is stated as

Matthew 11:10 **This is the one **about whom it is written: "‘I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.’
Matthew 11:14 **And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
**
**Matthew 17:10-13
** 10 The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”
11 Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. 12 But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have doneto him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

In Quran, it is stated in 3:39
“And the angels called to him as hestood praying in the chamber: ‘**Allah gives thee glad tidings of Yahya, who shall testify to the truth of a word from Allah **— noble and chaste and a Prophet, from among the righteous.’
‘a word of Allah’ refers to Jesus(as). So Yahya(as) was the Elijah that was to come as a sign of the truth of Messiah ibn mariam who has been called ‘a word of Allah’.
We have a clear precendent that a new messenger could be given the name of an older one in prophecies and it doesn’t mean that the older one must come again.
Moreover, if you guys look at the prophecies of coming of an ummati messiah ibn mariam, you can easily see that these prophecies are full of metaphors. Description of dajjal is a clear example.

Peace kchughtai

Can you give me the English translations of these Arabic names of prophets?

Elyasa, Ilyaas and Yahya …

???

@brahmachari99

While I go back to school and try to learn logical argumentation, perhaps it’d be appropriate to point out that I was referring to the image in post # 133. It is the third image of the three posted there. The text is in Urdu, I am not sure if you read Urdu or not, but Maududi sahib says Quran does not say Isa (AS) was taken up bodily.

[http://www.paklinks.com/gsmedia/files/72551/maudoodi rasailomasail.jpg](http://www.paklinks.com/gsmedia/files/72551/maudoodi rasailomasail.jpg)

I only got 80% of the words here … please post translation … I understood this commentary to be about “rafa” not “tawaffee” … there is another verse on this topic.

@brahmachari99

Psyah,
You forgot to mention if “taken up bodily” would apply Prophet Muhammad (AS) as well.

From my understanding RasoolAllah (SAW) is only quoting Isa (AS) … as per the verse of the Qur’an … the premise being unaware of those he (SAW) was not witness to, rather than being taken up like Isa (AS) … and besides the word “tawaffee” holds both meanings as already mentioned and it is perfectly applicable for the Ascension as well as it will be after Isa (AS) comes back dies normally and those after him go astray again …

[brahmachari99]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

@psyah

asoolAllah (SAW) is only quoting Isa (AS) ... as per the verse of the Qur'an ... the premise being unaware of those he (SAW) was not witness to, rather than being taken up like Isa (AS)

The problem is that Prophet (SAW) not only quoted Isa (AS), but he specifically mentioned that he'll "say what Isa (AS) said." Surely if Prophet (SAW) meant something else by this, he could've chosen different words.

@psyah

... and besides the word "tawaffee" holds both meanings as already mentioned and it is perfectly applicable for the Ascension as well as** it will be after Isa (AS) comes back dies normally and those after him go astray again** ...

Pretty much your whole argument up to this time is to prove that this verse referred to the ascension after the first coming. Are you saying this verse could also actually refer to "death" after the second coming?

[kchughtai]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

[quote]
Likewise in the case of Isa (AS) his being taken to REFUTE the killing and crucifixion it is not sufficient to say that Isa (AS) will die, because the death of Isa (AS) does not REFUTE the accusation ... so we have to offer other meanings ... to adequately negate the main talking point, which is the physical taking up of Isa (AS) which is grammatically plausible from the words being used.

[/quote]

Who said that death refutes the accusation. Bodily assecension doesn't either but the assurance of 'rafah' does. I said this earlier and will say here again that the Jews wanted to prove and firmly attest that Jesus(as) was not what he claimed to be and thus they resorted to kill him on the cross, a death that both jews and christians affirm to be accursed.so Allah promised (Quran 3:55) his messenger Jesus (as) in the time of danger that
1) I will cause thee to die a natural death --- i.e., the plan of jews will fail and Jesus(as) will be saved and will live till his natural death approaches him
2) he will be exalted.. now behold carefully. this very point is a direct refutation of Jewish plan to prove him an accursed person. A lowly accursed person doesn't earn the 'Rafah' in the afterlife. does he? So Allah said to His humble servant that your enemy thinks that you are an accursed and rejected soul but I will honor you

The verse 4:157,158 depict the materialization of those promises. Jews were not able to kill him pertains to 'INI MUTAWAFEQA' in 3:55. It doesn't meant that Jews couldn't kill him and Allah made him die right there or took him to the skies but it means that plans of jews went in vain and jesus(as) lived till his natural death as planned by Allah
and he was honored in the afterlife for which Jews thought he(as) is not entitled to.

[psyah]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

@brahmachari99

The problem is that Prophet (SAW) not only quoted Isa (AS), but he specifically mentioned that he’ll “say what Isa (AS) said.” Surely if Prophet (SAW) meant something else by this, he could’ve chosen different words.

Pretty much your whole argument up to this time is to prove that this verse referred to the ascension after the first coming. Are you saying this verse could also actually refer to “death” after the second coming?

Peace brahmachari99

I have no concern with this … of course “tawaffee” can be interpreted to mean both death and taking up alive … it is you who are saying it cannot be taken as “taken up alive” …

I still have not got the full translation of that commentary that you pasted …

Surah An-Nisa - 157-158 - Quran.com

needs to be cross referenced with this verse:

Surah Ali 'Imran - 55 - Quran.com

tawafee and rafa are two different things … but are connected and for Isa (AS) when one happened the other also happened …

[psyah]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

@kchughtai

Who said that death refutes the accusation. Bodily assecension doesn't either but the assurance of 'rafah' does. I said this earlier and will say here again that the Jews wanted to prove and firmly attest that Jesus(as) was not what he claimed to be and thus they resorted to kill him on the cross, a death that both jews and christians affirm to be accursed.so Allah promised (Quran 3:55) his messenger Jesus (as) in the time of danger that 1) I will cause thee to die a natural death --- i.e., the plan of jews will fail and Jesus(as) will be saved and will live till his natural death approaches him 2) he will be exalted.. now behold carefully. this very point is a direct refutation of Jewish plan to prove him an accursed person. A lowly accursed person doesn't earn the 'Rafah' in the afterlife. does he? So Allah said to His humble servant that your enemy thinks that you are an accursed and rejected soul but I will honor you

The verse 4:157,158 depict the materialization of those promises. Jews were not able to kill him pertains to 'INI MUTAWAFEQA' in 3:55. It doesn't meant that Jews couldn't kill him and Allah made him die right there but it means that plans of jews went in vain and jesus(as) lived till his natural death as planned by Allah and he was honored in the afterlife for which Jews thought he(as) is not entitled to.

Refute the accusation of

a) Killing
b) Crucifying

Allah (SWT) is saying that they didn't even have him (AS) in their possesion ... He kept him absolved of such insult ...

for me this is what makes the most sense of the latter part of that verse ... to say that they got hold of Isa (AS) and he was put on the cross is not right ...

If you argue like you have in the past why I can't believe that Isa (AS) was not even captured let alone put on the cross and you may ask me about the hardships of RasoolAllah (SAW) had to go through ... if you do ask me that question then you would have forgotten a few things ... Muhammad (SAW) came to teach us mercy and jihad ... Isa (AS) came to fulfil the prophecy of the Messiah ... and then come back to be the best of the followers of Muhammad (SAW).

The Jews wanted at the time wanted to kill Isa (AS) and harm him in their attempt to undermine his mission, but the attacks on Muhammad (SAW) only strengthened the mission of Islam ... herein lies the critical basis for why Isa (AS) was saved and why Muhammad (SAW) suffered some harm ...

[FairysAngel]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

@Mr.Popat

Also, see this verse [3:56] When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, I will cause thee to die a natural death and will exalt thee to Myself.. ( part of a long verse).

I am a silent reader in this thread but because of your translation of this verse as "I will cause thee to die a natural death", I would like to ask who translated this verse as you wrote above and could you please translate "die a natural death" in arabic? Don't quote Quranic verse but to translate it by using any translation software. For your information I'm quoting same verse translated in many ways where I or any person who have common sense can understand that no arabic word in the same verse means 'die a natural death'.

I apologize for breaking into so please don't give me a lenghty lecture as I don't wish to derail this thread any further, so shorten your answer by giving the translation of those words.

*Sahih International
* when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

**Muhsin Khan
**And (remember) when Allah said: "O 'Iesa (Jesus)! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that 'Iesa (Jesus) is Allah's son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monotheists, who worship none but Allah) superior to those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allah, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, e.g. Muhammad SAW, 'Iesa (Jesus), Musa (Moses), etc., or in His Holy Books, e.g. the Taurat (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel), the Quran] till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute."

*Pickthall
*(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.

**Yusuf Ali
**Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.

**Shakir
**And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

**Dr. Ghali
**As Allah said, "O Isa, (Jesus) surely I am taking you up to Me, and I am raising you up to Me, and I am purifying you of the ones who have disbelieved. And I am making the ones who have closely followed you above the ones who have disbelieved until the Day of the Resurrection. Thereafter to Me will be your return; so I will judge between you as to whatever you used to differ in.

[kchughtai]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

^ I think if you have been following this thread, you must have got your answer. you have quoted translations for the verse 3:55. Let me add a few more to your list. I am unaware of their religious beliefs. so here is the list:

Muhammad Asad Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee [far] above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. In the end, unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ.

Wahiduddin Khan ** God said, O Jesus, **I shall cause you to die and will raise you up to Me and shall clear you [of the calumnies] of the disbelievers, and shall place those who follow you above those who deny the truth, until the Day of Judgement; then to Me shall all return and I will judge between you regarding your disputes.

Abdul Majid Daryabadi ** Recall what time Allah said: O 'Isa! verily I shall **make thee die, and am lifting thee to myself and am purifying thee from those who disbelieve, and shall place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection; thereafter unto Me shall be the return of you all, then I shall judge between you of that wherein ye were wont to differ.

Ahmed Ali ** When God said: "You Jesus I am, **I am making you die and raising you to Me and purifying you from those who disbelieved, and making those who followed you above those who disbelieved to the Resurrection Day, then to Me (is) your return, so I judge/rule between you in what, you were in it differing

Ali Quli Qara'i ** When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, **I shall take you[r soul], and I shall raise you up toward Myself, and I shall clear you of [the calumnies of] the faithless, and I shall set those who follow you above the faithless until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me will be your return, whereat I will judge between you concerning that about which you used to differ.

Amatul Rahman Omar ** (Recall the time) when Allah said, `O Jesus! **I will cause you to die a natural death, and will exalt you to Myself and I will clear you of the unchaste accusations of those who disbelieve. I am going to make your followers prevail over the disbelievers till the Day of Resurrection, then to Me (O people!) shall be your return, and I will judge all your differences.

Shabbir Ahmed "O Jesus! I will cause you to die of natural causes and I will exalt you in honor in My Court and I will clear you of the slander of the disbelievers. I will cause those who truly follow you to dominate the rejecters until the Day of Resurrection. Eventually, all of you will return to Me, then I will judge among you about what you used to differ."

Tahir-ul-Qadri Mohammad When Allah said: ´O ´Isa (Jesus), I will surely bring your term of life to completion; and I am about to lift you towards Myself (in the heavens), and deliver you from the disbelievers, and exalt your followers above (these) disbelievers till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me you all have to return. So I shall judge between you in the matters about which you used to dispute

[kchughtai]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Moreover, Bukhari in his Kitab- ut-tafsir quotes ibn-abbas(ra) that "Mutawafeeqa' means "Mumeetuqa'

In tafsir-e-Kashaf vol 1. by Zamakhshari commented regarding 'Mutawafeeqa' as
'Mumeetuqa hataf anfak' --> 'cause thee to die a natural death'

[Mr.Popat]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

@FairysAngel

I am a silent reader in this thread but because of your translation of this verse as "I will cause thee to die a natural death", I would like to ask who translated this verse as you wrote above and could you please translate "die a natural death" in arabic? Don't quote Quranic verse but to translate it by using any translation software. For your information I'm quoting same verse translated in many ways where I or any person who have common sense can understand that no arabic word in the same verse means 'die a natural death'. .

Like kchughtai posted the verse translation of various other translators.. you may also want to read those.

No lectures, no nothing.. all i said was, that was how the verse should be translated. To say that Allah did not say 'mawt' and not taking it as mawt but rather taking it as 'take you up' as bodily is very naive ! I've posted various verses in which the word you take it as 'take me up' is translated as death or take one's soul. Please re-read my posts and why I'm saying what I'm saying.

Jesus (as) is the only exception in the entire Quran, and only for him, the word tawaffee is given a whole total new meaning. Thats not being fair to the Quran.

Like I said earlier, the word tawaffee is used before rafa'a and if you read the entire verse.. it will make sense to you.

Tawaffee= take up

take what up? take the entire body? the soul ? Theres no other possibility.
Entire body ? well.. this is not mentioned in quran, neither can you conclude that this verse means entire body. No mention of that at all.
Soul ? yes. Thats the only thing Allah would 'take up'.

How does Allah take soul ? what are the criterias ?

1) Sleep
2) Death.

Both cases, the physical body remains on Earth. If Jesus (as) is not sleeping then He's dead ( his soul is in heaven ), ( angels 'took away' his soul ).

Many verses in Quran where the word tawaffee is used which means death. Plain and simple. You simply cannot conclude that just because it does not clearly say 'mawt' it should mean 'taken up' physically, because that is again contradictory to Quran, as I presented one verse earlier in this thread where the word tawaffee is used and not 'mawt' and still means death.

[psyah]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

^ I think if you have been following this thread, you must have got your answer. you have quoted translations for the verse 3:55. Let me add a few more to your list. I am unaware of their religious beliefs. so here is the list:

Muhammad Asad Lo! God said: "O Jesus! Verily, I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto Me, and cleanse thee of [the presence of] those who are bent on denying the truth; and I shall place those who follow thee [far] above those who are bent on denying the truth, unto the Day of Resurrection. In the end, unto Me you all must return, and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ.

Wahiduddin Khan ** God said, O Jesus, **I shall cause you to die and will raise you up to Me and shall clear you [of the calumnies] of the disbelievers, and shall place those who follow you above those who deny the truth, until the Day of Judgement; then to Me shall all return and I will judge between you regarding your disputes.

Abdul Majid Daryabadi ** Recall what time Allah said: O 'Isa! verily I shall **make thee die, and am lifting thee to myself and am purifying thee from those who disbelieve, and shall place those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection; thereafter unto Me shall be the return of you all, then I shall judge between you of that wherein ye were wont to differ.

Ahmed Ali ** When God said: "You Jesus I am, **I am making you die and raising you to Me and purifying you from those who disbelieved, and making those who followed you above those who disbelieved to the Resurrection Day, then to Me (is) your return, so I judge/rule between you in what, you were in it differing

Ali Quli Qara'i ** When Allah said, ‘O Jesus, **I shall take you[r soul], and I shall raise you up toward Myself, and I shall clear you of [the calumnies of] the faithless, and I shall set those who follow you above the faithless until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me will be your return, whereat I will judge between you concerning that about which you used to differ.

Amatul Rahman Omar ** (Recall the time) when Allah said, `O Jesus! **I will cause you to die a natural death, and will exalt you to Myself and I will clear you of the unchaste accusations of those who disbelieve. I am going to make your followers prevail over the disbelievers till the Day of Resurrection, then to Me (O people!) shall be your return, and I will judge all your differences.

Shabbir Ahmed "O Jesus! I will cause you to die of natural causes and I will exalt you in honor in My Court and I will clear you of the slander of the disbelievers. I will cause those who truly follow you to dominate the rejecters until the Day of Resurrection. Eventually, all of you will return to Me, then I will judge among you about what you used to differ."

Tahir-ul-Qadri Mohammad When Allah said: ´O ´Isa (Jesus), I will surely bring your term of life to completion; and I am about to lift you towards Myself (in the heavens), and deliver you from the disbelievers, and exalt your followers above (these) disbelievers till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me you all have to return. So I shall judge between you in the matters about which you used to dispute

Peace kchughtai

You see that is the problem ... You are posting translations ... Some of these people are still alive ... Just ask them what they believe ... Why are you posting their translations to us? A translation does not paint the whole picture ...

According to the masters of the belief system ... Isa (as) was taken up alive ... And we as followers believe that ... You are not authorities over us and if you have an issue then take it up with them.

[psyah]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Moreover, Bukhari in his Kitab- ut-tafsir quotes ibn-abbas(ra) that "Mutawafeeqa' means "Mumeetuqa'

In tafsir-e-Kashaf vol 1. by Zamakhshari commented regarding 'Mutawafeeqa' as 'Mumeetuqa hataf anfak' --> 'cause thee to die a natural death'

I'm sure there are a few respected people who had such understandings ... But I'm also quite sure you have not pasted the full extent of what is discussed above ... Please a link that I can actually follow and independently verify.

[kchughtai]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtaiYou see that is the problem ... You are posting translations ... Some of these people are still alive ... Just ask them what they believe ... Why are you posting their translations to us? A translation does not paint the whole picture ... According to the masters of the belief system ... Isa (as) was taken up alive ... And we as followers believe that ... You are not authorities over us and if you have an issue then take it up with them.

What is the problem with you? I was responding to fairyangel's question. and the question was weaved around ONE word 'Mutawafeeqa' and not the issue of life or death of Isa(as). She pointed out translations as if all are translating it that way and why we are resorting to the translation 'cause thee to die a natural death'. I presented some translations to show her other side of the picture.

Certainly, I am not an authorithy over you neither your stance has any binding on me. We are presenting our views and you are yours. why do you feel threatened. It is upto Allah to give guidance to the right path no matter how hard anyone tries. So stay cool. present your view and let me present mine.

[kchughtai]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

I'm sure there are a few respected people who had such understandings ... But I'm also quite sure you have not pasted the full extent of what is discussed above ... Please a link that I can actually follow and independently verify.

I presented what was available to me. didn't hide anything. I quoted the Tafsir Al-Kashshaaf 'an Haqa'iq at-Tanzil by persian scholar Al-Zamakhshari. I think it should be available in some library or bookstore.

[psyah]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

What is the problem with you? I was responding to fairyangel's question. and the question was weaved around ONE word 'Mutawafeeqa' and not the issue of life or death of Isa(as). She pointed out translations as if all are translating it that way and why we are resorting to the translation 'cause thee to die a natural death'. I presented some translations to show her other side of the picture.

Certainly, I am not an authorithy over you neither your stance has any binding on me. We are presenting our views and you are yours. why do you feel threatened. It is upto Allah to give guidance to the right path no matter how hard anyone tries. So stay cool. present your view and let me present mine.

Peace kchughtai

Look I don't have a problem translating it as " cause you to die" ... But then I invoke that time to still be pending. Allah (SWT) will still cause Isa(as) to die and it has not happened yet.

So take your pick ... That Isa (as) is alive and Allah (SWT) will cause him (as) to die, in the second coming or Allah (SWT) has taken him up to Himself ...

Either way ... The initial argument is about refuting the notion that "the Qur'an says for a fact that Isa(as) has died ...

[brahmachari99]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

Peace kchughtai Look I don't have a problem translating it as " cause you to die" ... But then I invoke that time to still be pending. Allah (SWT) will still cause Isa(as) to die and it has not happened yet.

So if verse refers to the second coming, Allah will cause Jesus to die and lift him up again? That's what the verse implies according to your translations of "rafa" "O Jesus, indeed I will cause you to die and raise you to Myself"

[psyah]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

So if verse refers to the second coming, Allah will cause Jesus to die and lift him up again? That's what the verse implies according to your translations of "rafa" "O Jesus, indeed I will cause you to die and raise you to Myself"

Respected person ... You were saying that rafa means "raising in rank" ... you can't have it both ways ...

Besides there is no chronological order here ... one does not necessarily come after the other ... But my primary understanding of the verse is that it IS NOT "cause you to die" despite the various translations on it ... The better understanding is "I will take you and raise you to Myself".

The taking away from harm happened - This can be reflected in the disappearance before the arrest on the mount ....
Raising to heaven - This is the actual Ascension that took place after the crucifixion of the body double.

This my preferred reading of the verse ... I was merely saying that even if you translate it as "cause you to die" there is no time limit on that verse to say that "Isa (AS) has DIED" past tense no such place - no such fact in the Qur'an ...

[Mughal1]

Re: Hazrat Isa A.S.

As I see it, there is no discussion but just reiteration of make beliefs. Debate is not possible with irrational people or on irrational issues so first thing first start debate on validity of rationality and convince the other side that if they are not rational then they have no case. Only if you are rational you have the case. It is a case of a grown debating with a baby instead of educating the baby to raise his level of thinking to bring baby to same level of rational thought. Convincing or proving is all about rationality so where there is no rationality you first need to create rationality as basis and then build the case on that using it as a common ground. So finding common ground before starting debate on any issue is vital.