Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
I think that’s because Gen is one of the few forums actually frequented by people anymore.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Surah 4 an Nisa ayah 24 and also prohibited to you are all married women except those who your right hand posseses.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Forbidding Women Already Married Except for Female Slaves
Allah subhanahu wa ta’ala said,
وَالْمُحْصَنَـتُ مِنَ النِّسَآءِ إِلاَّ مَا مَلَكْتَ أَيْمَـنُكُمْ
“Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess.”The Ayah means, you are prohibited from marrying women who are already married,
إِلاَّ مَا مَلَكْتَ أَيْمَـنُكُمْ
“except those whom your right hands possess” except those whom you acquire through war, for you are allowed such women after making sure they are not pregnant. Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri said, “We captured some women from the area of Awtas who were already married, and we disliked having sexual relations with them because they already had husbands. So, we asked the Prophet about this matter, and this Ayah was revealed,
وَالْمُحْصَنَـتُ مِنَ النِّسَآءِ إِلاَّ مَا مَلَكْتَ أَيْمَـنُكُمْ
Consequently, we had sexual relations with these women.” This is the wording collected by At-Tirmidhi An-Nasa’i, Ibn Jarir and Muslim in his Sahih. Allah’s statement,
كِتَـبَ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ
“Thus has Allah ordained for you” means, this prohibition was ordained for you by Allah. Therefore, adhere to Allah’s Book, do not transgress His set limits, and adhere to His legislation and decrees.
Please note Tirmidhi, An, Nasai and Muslim are the Sahih Sitta or truer 6 books of Hadith.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
And hadith’s outline that those women whose husbands are captured as POW’s with their wives - you cannot break those marriages and forcibly marry those women. Forcibly marrying someone or forcibly sexually attacking them is prohibited as stated in the verse I stated - “do not inherit women against their will”. So coupling those verses, the POW would 1) need to be willing and 2) there is an iddat period if her husband died in war - there is a hadith on this I came across and 3) can’t go near her if her husband is present in the booty captured from the battle - hadith on this and 4) if her husband is dead, she is no longer married.
Now if her husband is alive but elsewhere and not in the POW encampment, I’m not sure about that, but I’m not sure if that was a common instance that was encountered at that time anyway. Like I said, if she has an intact husband somewhere and wants to be reunited with him (which you can do, you can always RELEASE the slave out of kindness), then logically, she wont consent to marriage with a muslim soldier. Therefore, again, you can’t take a woman against her will. So that marriage/coinhabitation would be haraam.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Oh and to another point you made somewhere eastern - the slaves existed prior to POWs taken during the short amt of time spent in physical jihad by Prophet Muhammad SAW. References to slave treatment, etc doesn’t just apply to POW’s, it also applies to home slaves that were already owned when Rasulullah was getting revelations. People were known to be raping those slaves, passing them around like used napkins, and all this was prohibited.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Does Islam really allow muslim men to rape female slaves?
This article contains a lot of those hadith’s I refer to. I haven’t cross checked them though, I don’t own a collection of hadith, but you can always cross reference if you dont believe them.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Actually now that I think about it, is there a verse that explicitly says you don’t marry the slave first before intercourse? In other words, is there a verse that says go ahead and have intercourse, with the slaves you actually dont need marriage? I don’t think so…
Check out this article. He explains it well. The “women of the right hand” are to be chaste, so you can’t simply have sex w/ them without a commitment of some sort, like a nikkah. Otherwise they lose their chastity. They’ll lose their virginity without a nikkah, and after the guy dies, then they’ll be the girl with a past, they wont be chaste anymore. So that doesn’t make any sense. Any evidence that nikkah ceremonies were NOT being used with slaves?
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Of Islam, Boko Haram and Sexual Slavery*|*Kashif N. Chaudhry
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
I agree 100% that Islam did not introduce slavery infact freeing of slaves in repentance of sins was probably introduced by Islam itself. Prostitution of slaves was forbidden too. However, the article you linked gives the Hadith that whoever causes harm to others subjects himself to harm to God. The explainer gives that hadith’s reference as that rape of slaves was not allowed but the Hadith nowhere mentions that.
However, sex or not, keeping people as slaves by someone whether they are Muslims or not is hard to accept. Slavery is allowed in Christianity ( infact ones own daughter can be given in slavery) and Islam. I think in Judaism as well. But the Islam attackers avoid this fact. I do not think many people would willingly want to be slaves. Maid servants yes, but slaves. Yet, it was something practiced in those times and Thank God it has gone away legally. It is illegal in Saudia to posses a slave I believe. What goes on illegally in the world is another matter.
It was very hard for me to read about the atrocities committed by the Turks on Armenians in the early nineteenth century using the same " sex slaves are allowed in Islam" excuse. These were many many men not just a few. There is also a book by a survivor whose book I read ( it can be found on the internet too after some effort to be downloaded, but is very disturbing esp as it involves children). That got me thinking why we can’t just just let people live whether it’s Hitler, Gengis Khan or the awful guy who killed those three poor Muslims who were wonderful humanitarians. I am just trying to believe in the good and focusing on the good deeds of the sahaba Hazrat Umar RA provided for poor people of the book. Do you think a moulvi today would do condone such an action?
May Allah help me towards the right path and let us all live. We need more humanitarian actions than rituals but our religion has become just that. I am more pious because I wear a hijab while you are not even if you take care of 20 homeless a day.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Does Islam Permit Muslim Men to Rape Their Slave Girls?
This article will bring some comfort with actual citations. Again, they can be cross checked. I am not gonna travel to a library to do it at this time of night, I’ll just accept it. Seems well written. shrugs Gives some re-assurance regarding our discussions on slavery and sex.
And it also addresses that Quranic verse - I double checked, that verse is correct regarding having sex with slave women previously married, and there is an interesting argument made in the above article on this topic as to why this verse was revealed in the first place.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
If it’s a nikah than they are wives. Not slaves. Before sex, it’s prescribed to wait for a month to see if they are pregnant so paternity can be established. If they are virgins no such waiting period is necessary though. In all the quranic verses permitting slavery, e.g 33:50 it says we have made lawful for you , your wives and those whom your right hand possesses ( meaning slaves).
Also, in An Nisa mentioned above, in ayah 24, translation is prohibited are you are married women except whom your right hand possesses as captives or spoils of war.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
"*I agree 100% that Islam did not introduce slavery infact freeing of slaves in repentance of sins was probably introduced by Islam itself. Prostitution of slaves was forbidden too. However, the article you linked gives the Hadith that whoever causes harm to others subjects himself to harm to God. The explainer gives that hadith’s reference as that rape of slaves was not allowed but the Hadith nowhere mentions that. *
** Rape IS the inflicting of harm on a woman thru forced sex, so yes, harm to others will include anyone - you can’t inflict unjust harm. So that includes free believing and slaves, since harm was not permitted towards slaves. I don’t see your argument here **
*
However, sex or not, keeping people as slaves by someone whether they are Muslims or not is hard to accept. Slavery is allowed in Christianity ( infact ones own daughter can be given in slavery) and Islam. *
** “Slavery allowed in Islam” is a loaded statement. If all actions were meant to slowly free people, advance the rights of slaves, allow them to hold public office even in government!!, then how can we say it’s ALLOWED in Islam. It’s not that it was allowed in Islam. It already existed, and Islam gave rules about it to minimize abuses and slowly set slaves free with the ultimate goal of eventually abolishing it. This was obvious Allah’s will because this is what eventually happened. **
*
I think in Judaism as well. But the Islam attackers avoid this fact. I do not think many people would willingly want to be slaves. Maid servants yes, but slaves. *
** Read the last article I posted, there may have been an ancient phenomenon in ancient times where women dressed up ready to be taken as captives since war was a way of life in the ancient world. I mean I don’t know too much of the history of this, but ancient world doesn’t work like our world does. They were under far different stressors. If your village is repeatedly invaded every year, then maybe the women might indeed dress up wanting to get with whichever victors took over, to ensure their own chance of survival. I dunno. Again, check out the Troy movie, the idea that POW’s willfully succombed to the soldiers that captured them isn’t entirely unheard of **
*
Yet, it was something practiced in those times and Thank God it has gone away legally. It is illegal in Saudia to posses a slave I believe. What goes on illegally in the world is another matter. *
*
It was very hard for me to read about the atrocities committed by the Turks on Armenians in the early nineteenth century using the same " sex slaves are allowed in Islam" excuse. These were many many men not just a few. There is also a book by a survivor whose book I read ( it can be found on the internet too after some effort to be downloaded, but is very disturbing esp as it involves children). That got me thinking why we can’t just just let people live whether it’s Hitler, Gengis Khan or the awful guy who killed those three poor Muslims who were wonderful humanitarians. I am just trying to believe in the good and focusing on the good deeds of the sahaba Hazrat Umar RA provided for poor people of the book. Do you think a moulvi today would do condone such an action? *
*
May Allah help me towards the right path and let us all live. We need more humanitarian actions than rituals but our religion has become just that. I am more pious because I wear a hijab while you are not even if you take care of 20 homeless a day. "*
**Don’t let the Turkish-Armenian atrocities define Islam. Islam is defined by Quran, augmented by whatever evidence we have in Hadith as long as it doesn’t directly contradict the Quran. We weren’t there when a lot of this happened, so some explanations we will never have, but if you piece together what history there is plus what is in the Quran the logical conclusions are: 1) during war, taking captives is allowed - happens even today - heard of Gitmo? and 2) There are special rules about the women that get taken captive 3) they are to be protected not hurt, since we are not allowed to hurt another human 4) rape is not allowed with them 5) you can marry them and that’s the best option 6) some evidence that if those girls worshipped idols, you could not even have sexual intercourse with them 7) if the captives were people of the book and WILLING, you COULD have sex with them, it would be consentual though 8) this behavior seems to have been more of a feeling of sexual need while away from wives during wartime - and this is a reality, soldiers screw around , they just do, while they’re at war. Reference prostitution in Afghanistan and Iraq - it’s a reality. 9) if the POW’s husband is also captured and couple is together, you can’t force them to divorce and force yourself on the girl 10) if the POW is a woman, captured, her husband is elsewhere, then that nullifies that marriage, and again, if she WANTS to abandon her husband, accept Islam and coinhabit with a muslim soldier she CAN. 11) Some evidence that Rasulullah wasn’t thrilled with taking the women and kids of other communities they had conquered and would offer them to be returned if the men of that warring tribe accepted a truce. **
** 
See there is ample wealth of information that we muslims dont know about. We hear about one verse here and there or a hadith here and there that is often being taken out of context by corrupt people, and we fall for it. There seems to be ample evidence that POW’s were treated humanely, and that the treatment towards existing slaves was to justice by them, and heighten their status, and give them opportunities that “slaves” normally don’t have in other slavery systems in history. These were not cotton picking slaves of the South in America. **
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
This is a very good article. And provides lots of relief to the mind. Do try to look up the atrocities committed by the Turks on Armenians too and pray for humanity in general if you have the stomach for it. There are some smaller versions too but I doubt that many will read even that. As for me, whenever I feel I have it bad, I see things like that, I thank Allah and move on. I have it great! Allhumdulillah compared to what has happened and is going on.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
"*I agree 100% that Islam did not introduce slavery infact freeing of slaves in repentance of sins was probably introduced by Islam itself. Prostitution of slaves was forbidden too. However, the article you linked gives the Hadith that whoever causes harm to others subjects himself to harm to God. The explainer gives that hadith’s reference as that rape of slaves was not allowed but the Hadith nowhere mentions that. *
** Rape IS the inflicting of harm on a woman thru forced sex, so yes, harm to others will include anyone - you can’t inflict unjust harm. So that includes free believing and slaves, since harm was not permitted towards slaves. I don’t see your argument here **
*
However, sex or not, keeping people as slaves by someone whether they are Muslims or not is hard to accept. Slavery is allowed in Christianity ( infact ones own daughter can be given in slavery) and Islam. *
** “Slavery allowed in Islam” is a loaded statement. If all actions were meant to slowly free people, advance the rights of slaves, allow them to hold public office even in government!!, then how can we say it’s ALLOWED in Islam. It’s not that it was allowed in Islam. It already existed, and Islam gave rules about it to minimize abuses and slowly set slaves free with the ultimate goal of eventually abolishing it. This was obvious Allah’s will because this is what eventually happened. **
*
I think in Judaism as well. But the Islam attackers avoid this fact. I do not think many people would willingly want to be slaves. Maid servants yes, but slaves. *
** Read the last article I posted, there may have been an ancient phenomenon in ancient times where women dressed up ready to be taken as captives since war was a way of life in the ancient world. I mean I don’t know too much of the history of this, but ancient world doesn’t work like our world does. They were under far different stressors. If your village is repeatedly invaded every year, then maybe the women might indeed dress up wanting to get with whichever victors took over, to ensure their own chance of survival. I dunno. Again, check out the Troy movie, the idea that POW’s willfully succombed to the soldiers that captured them isn’t entirely unheard of **
*
Yet, it was something practiced in those times and Thank God it has gone away legally. It is illegal in Saudia to posses a slave I believe. What goes on illegally in the world is another matter. *
*
It was very hard for me to read about the atrocities committed by the Turks on Armenians in the early nineteenth century using the same " sex slaves are allowed in Islam" excuse. These were many many men not just a few. There is also a book by a survivor whose book I read ( it can be found on the internet too after some effort to be downloaded, but is very disturbing esp as it involves children). That got me thinking why we can’t just just let people live whether it’s Hitler, Gengis Khan or the awful guy who killed those three poor Muslims who were wonderful humanitarians. I am just trying to believe in the good and focusing on the good deeds of the sahaba Hazrat Umar RA provided for poor people of the book. Do you think a moulvi today would do condone such an action? *
*
May Allah help me towards the right path and let us all live. We need more humanitarian actions than rituals but our religion has become just that. I am more pious because I wear a hijab while you are not even if you take care of 20 homeless a day. "*
**Don’t let the Turkish-Armenian atrocities define Islam. Islam is defined by Quran, augmented by whatever evidence we have in Hadith as long as it doesn’t directly contradict the Quran. We weren’t there when a lot of this happened, so some explanations we will never have, but if you piece together what history there is plus what is in the Quran the logical conclusions are: 1) during war, taking captives is allowed - happens even today - heard of Gitmo? and 2) There are special rules about the women that get taken captive 3) they are to be protected not hurt, since we are not allowed to hurt another human 4) rape is not allowed with them 5) you can marry them and that’s the best option 6) some evidence that if those girls worshipped idols, you could not even have sexual intercourse with them 7) if the captives were people of the book and WILLING, you COULD have sex with them, it would be consentual though 8) this behavior seems to have been more of a feeling of sexual need while away from wives during wartime - and this is a reality, soldiers screw around , they just do, while they’re at war. Reference prostitution in Afghanistan and Iraq - it’s a reality. 9) if the POW’s husband is also captured and couple is together, you can’t force them to divorce and force yourself on the girl 10) if the POW is a woman, captured, her husband is elsewhere, then that nullifies that marriage, and again, if she WANTS to abandon her husband, accept Islam and coinhabit with a muslim soldier she CAN. 11) Some evidence that Rasulullah wasn’t thrilled with taking the women and kids of other communities they had conquered and would offer them to be returned if the men of that warring tribe accepted a truce. **
** See there is ample wealth of information that we muslims dont know about. We hear about one verse here and there or a hadith here and there that is often being taken out of context by corrupt people, and we fall for it. There seems to be ample evidence that POW’s were treated humanely, and that the treatment towards existing slaves was to justice by them, and heighten their status, and give them opportunities that “slaves” normally don’t have in other slavery systems in history. These were not cotton picking slaves of the South in America. **
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
It’s not just Islam, things have been done in the name of religion and race that have been awful. Why can’t we just co- exist. Sure, peacefully try to convert but don’t kill each other if someone does not belong to your sect. Look in Pakistan, the TTP and their like kill mostly Muslims because they think they are not Muslims anymore. Wow!!! And I see that mindset prevailing on a lower level elsewhere too. People in general have become less tolerant, much less tolerant. Though I have nice friends who are niqabis even, some who are hijabis, would not give me the time of the day because I don’t wear one. And don’t get me started on those who are all gloss and glamor with no substance. Sigh" where are the moderates?
Fatwa on slaves
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
That was supposed to be light hearted. I think this is a very nice thread.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Also just as an aside slavery today isn’t allowed. Scholars agree with that too.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Yes, I have read that because according to the UN conventions captives can’t be taken like that and Muslim nations are bound by that treaty. However, most scholars are of the view that it is allowable to keep slaves without nikah. And to think otherwise is haram. You may shed more light on this.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Husband and Wife are bound in a contract which is Nikkah (Marriage). And Nikkah can be done between two free opposite gender people, and Nikkah is the exchange of guardianship between the wali of bride and groom.
But in case of a captive girl from a war, she has no wali at that time and a slave to her master so she has no guardian. Due to which Nikkah is not possible, because as I said earlier that Nikkah can be done between two free people and Nikkah is the exchange of guardianship and a captive girl can not produce a guardian and neither she is free. So what happens is that, a contract similar to Nikkah which gives the slave girl every right of a wife is signed between the slave girl and her master and now they become lawful for each other. But we do not call it Nikkah as Nikkah is the exchange of guardianship and if a master marries his own slave girl then he is already the guardian of her slave girl and thus no exchange of guardianship will take place. And the slave girl is now respected as the wife of her master and Islamic Law gives her every right of a Wife.
Slave girls are not to satisfy sexual desires but rather the master has to signed a contract like Nikkah, give her equal rights and make her his wife.
And Allah knows best. Not sure why this is such a big deal anyway. When you look at the rules and boundaries Islam put down about slavery which was basically to slowly put a stop to it all together then why look at that aspect of the past anyways? There is no slavery anymore. And that was the end goal anyways. And whatever slavegirls the sahaba had were treated equal to their wives. They weren’t used as objects to satisfy their lust.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
@eastern11 I answered some of your comments in the earlier post.