Have you ever questioned your belief?

anya · February 17, 2015, 2:02am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

Help me understand how and why was consensual act allowed with slaves (spoils of war or not) without marriage? How come that does not come under zina?

Monk · February 17, 2015, 2:17am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

That is an easy one
Same reason its not zina when you are married.

She is under your roof, your protection, and its known!!
She is your responsibility, food clothing etc…
She can have children and those kids would have slave owner name as father, and
those children would get part of inheritance, sound like marriage??

Plus because of those exemption, all the slave women were able to work their way to freedom.

Imagine that in 50 year ago in us, slave owner making kids with black women, give his property to her kids… and eventually she lives like her wife…

Pretty cool.

anya · February 17, 2015, 2:25am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

^yeah then why not marry them first and then commit the act?

Monk · February 17, 2015, 2:31am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

define me how such relation is different them marriage ?

marriage is announced because woman leave house and go to other persons protection/care.
But this unlucky women is already in care and protection of this man.

And please pay attention, this not a far fetched theory, it has played out.
All the women worked their way to free life, only ones left were disable and such women.

I mean it would be easy let out a disable women and not taking care of her, and feel good about your self for “freeing” her ?

Monk · February 17, 2015, 2:34am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

I would really every one if you read like 3 mins about islam before making us all work
When there is a choice there is judgment, one cell organism dont have choice the way you do.
See you making a choice not get off internet and read basics of islam.

If I have to guess, men by nature look for comfort first then responsibility. Perhaps if they were told MARRY before touch… probably they wont. In this case they seek comfort but end up taking responsibility. (all my assumption-- not for debate as islamic principle. Thank you)

Theorist · February 17, 2015, 2:44am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

What makes us recognize that we have a choice? A Mind? So a mind has soul? What is a mind? Are all minds created equal? No. How can our choices be equal? If options are not equal then how can consequences be predetermined?

Islam isn’t the only religion deserving of extra reading, all religions do. All religions make similar claims. They can’t all be the truth right? But then again, it is so easy to say that Islam is the final perfect version of all revelations and prophecies of every religion so it is the only truth. Says who? the last prophet, a person, a man. Well, others don’t agree so what to do? They are people too and many of them are holy and self proclaimed prophets, highly psychic individuals who claim to have performed “miracles”. So then what? Who do you believe? They may all make sense to a gullible individual. Why should a person be punished for being born into a non-muslim family or making a conscious choice to follow a religion that makes sense to him? Why must other religions condemn his actions because he didn’t choose their religion? Sounds like a sale pitch, doesn’t it?

I will stop here before I say something that may offend some posters here.

Monk · February 17, 2015, 2:49am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

Well this all religion thing is lame excuse and quite disrespect full.
Intellectually its equivalent to say, a circle does not fit its curve with triangle that is way i am not a muslim. and till Try angle have curve fitting with square I wont believe.
Its sort of mental block, you your self have to work on.

Southie · February 17, 2015, 3:00am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

What is disrespectful in saying other religions may have views that are different? I think you are saying for a muslim to say this is disrespectful?

The circle square triangle splanation took the outside edge. Luckily Kamran Akmal was keeper. And Umar the lone slip.

Theorist · February 17, 2015, 3:07am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

Not an excuse nor disrespectful. What is disrespectful is to ignore all religions for one. To find the truth one must reject it all first then pursue everything from a new set of eyes and mind. Your circle analogy is seriously ridiculous, monk. Try fitting a circle into another circle, not a triangle in a circle or a circle in a triangle. All religions are circles just different sizes.

Monk · February 17, 2015, 3:10am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

saying that till we put Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism and Islam, on top of each other, and we see corners coming out and not matching, we wont consider your argument, is very stupid to say the least.
Its more disrespect full to discussion and to person who put forward.

Till we have amir(fast baller/bawler) back, no point talking cricket.

Monk · February 17, 2015, 3:12am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

Glad you could feel what we feel reading such arguments, which being put forth above.

Southie · February 17, 2015, 3:16am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

We will meet up again in September then.

eastern11 · February 17, 2015, 3:21am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

Because it says so in the Quran Surah Anisa third ayat, that it is permissible to have sex only with wives and those that your right hand posseses ( meaning slaves). However, these slaves can only be non believing women who are taken only during times of war that’s why it’s not zina. All scholars rule that it’s permissible and it’s not allowed to be called haram. Hazrat Umar ( RA) had many children from his slaves as well. He was the one who forbade the selling of female slaves who had given birth as well showing kindness. The Quran also says that the marriage of non believing women dissolves when they are captured so they are halal.

It is wrong to say that the companions and the Muslims of the time did something wrong as they did whatever was sanctioned by Islam.

eastern11 · February 17, 2015, 3:30am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

These are verses of the Quran and Hadith books ( Bukhari is part of the correct six books of Hadith). The anti Islam sites are vile and conveniently leave out the fact that Christianity rules about slavery are way harsher and slavery was around before Islam any way. Rihana ( RA) became a Muslim later on so I doubt she was unwilling, however, she was offered marriage by the holy Prophet and refused saying that she did did deserve it. Safia ( RA) also was captured as a slave first but the holy Prohept ( SW) married her and her tribe was granted amnesty. That is why they all became Muslims.

Hazrat Umar Farooq ( RA) banned the selling of a female slave who had given birth so female slavery was very much going on.

Regarding all women would gave become slaves, no, non believing women could only be captured during war not otherwise and if they became Muslims before that obviously they could not be captured. But yes, if they became Muslims after becoming slaves they would still be slaves.

PyariCgudia:

Where did you get some of this stuff from? An anti Islam website? There are many that pretend to be muslim websites and they aren’t.

There are some good articles you can find on this and I went thru a number of Hadith that support the sexual relationship with a slave is to be under the woman’s consent. I’ll have to dig up that article. Not to mention the clear verse in the Quran that talks about mating only if women are consenting. Rape is not allowed not even with a concubine or POW of war.

The story of Maria exemplified this. She was taken as a POW, and in the caravan ride back home after the battle she expected the Prophet would just take her like anyone does after a battle. He didn’t. She instead heard his sermons and lectures etc and on the caravan ride he treated her with kindness. She got interested in him and then they eventually mated. And you don’t just Mate and move on , you are responsible for that woman like your wife. That’s why the Quran pairs the two in sentences such as your wife AND that which your right hand possesses meaning they are elevated to a level of your wife essentially. You dont hand her off to another man for him to use, you’re responsible for her etc.

I haven’t studied uhud much but maybe the fact that the guys were lusting and not following orders is why they lost. Allah showed he did not like this sort of lust towards females running away from a village about to be taken over.

Yes I don’t think most women would be willing if their husbands etc got killed but if you look at the amount of bloodshed during these battles overall life lost was low in number, compared to traditional warfare at the time. So it’s not like we’re talking millions of sex slaves. If a POW was taken and she was married you couldn’t sleep with her! And like I said there is an element of consent. Haven’t seen any hard evidence that shows a no consenting woman was forced to sleep with a muslim convert and seeing how good natured the Quran and Prophet were in general it’s hard to believe of such cases. I think Islam spread fast and people were actually willing to convert and join in the new movement.

Is there evidence rehana was nonconsenting?

Marrying the slave probably would have been better at the time because freeing a slave meant she is now on her own. Like I said with no resources or skills freeing slaves en masse has its drawbacks. It’s not that Allah doesn’t prefer freedom for slaves. It’s a question of how to do it. You can just free them ie dump them out of your homes onto the road with no source of food, shelter, clothes, etc and just hope they find employment or you can slowly one by one integrate them into the community. For females finding them a husband is probably more humane.

This agreement of sex with slaves without consent is probably the work of nice dodgy scholars who also gave us nonsense like it’s ok to kill Shias and gays and the Hudood ordinance and all kinds of fun stupidity in the name of Islam that if you actually read the Quranic text you will know is actually all haraam behavior. I have read the verse that clearly states a woman must be willing to be with you. Rape is rape and scholars agree on the definitions. Barring property ownership and wages the status of slaves was brought up equal to that of a wife’s. So consent in sexual relations is one of those rights. Consent to the relationship in the first place is a right.

if Allahs ultimate intention was to abolish slavery slowly by integrating slaves as citizens and family members of the new muslims, logic follows the slavery should have been abolished soon. But the fact it took centuries is not Allah’s fault. Like I said you can’t look at what happened after Prophets life as examples. Because they were not infallible the Sahabah or the future muslim dynasties. They had their corruptions and I don’t doubt they kept slaves when they could have been free.

Maria eventually was freed. She bore a son. Any slave bearing a child → immediately freed by default.

If this were the type of sex slave you hear about in newspapers in the US - some creep who kidnaps girl and puts her in his basement and gives her a doggy pot to crap in and feeds her scraps then rapes her daily and she never sees sunlight again - no that’s not the type of “sex slave” we are talkin about. Hence I think term sex slave is totally wrong and concubine is more accurate.

Culture of concubines no longer exists and I don’t think Allah misses it either. Like Allah says in the Quran, lust is a sin. So having concubines in the traditional sense is just manifestation of lust. So no that’s not allowed. Nor is domination or power or humiliation of POW and their people. Hence the loss at Uhud.

But developing a relationship equated to marriage (ok fine no fancy Nikkah paper), and having responsibilities of marriage with the acknowledgement that she is freed and to be then called wife If she bears a kid or converts to Islam is just incentivized conversions and giving women of towns taken in war an alternative to prostitution. Once towns came under muslim control, it’s inhabitants were always free to return to it once peace treaties were signed so not even most women were taken captive. They just resumed their usual lives in their towns except often as muslims rather than nonmuslims.

Otherwise think about it. Every Arab woman outside Makkah and Madina would have practically been taken captive and kept as slaves. That makes no sense.

PyariCgudia · February 17, 2015, 3:33am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

I think the distinction is that it’s a known relationship. Your wives know, the concubines know. What differentiates it from rape is the consent of both parties. Rape by definition is the victim did not consent and was violently acted upon. There is no violence here.

Let me refer you to a movie called Troy with Brad Pitt and the scene where he shacks up with the King’s daughter, the princess. These things happened in the real world. Brad Pitt’s character doesn’t rape her or force her, but things happen and the two fall for each other.

I don’t think pre-Islamic arabia was an easy place to live. On all accounts, it was violent, unjust, and barbaric. A group like the early muslims with their morals and good leadership, and proper treatment of POW’s - I can imagine some women might have been surprised. If you can accept that women and men converted in rapid numbers in those early days, then it’s not surprising if girls kidnapped got interested in Islam, in muslims, and fell for some early muslims who probably treated them better than their own men.

And like I said, I think there were some rules about whether the girl was married. You couldn’t shack up with her. If her husband was taken as POW - for sure you couldn’t take her. And if her husband died, she had a period of iddat assigned to her for her mourning, and then after that the question would come up of her being assigned to a muslim man as a potential partner. Again, these were more like setting these women up to men to be their families, rather than a sex slave as we think of the concept today.

A zina act is often hidden, it’s consentual, but it’s hidden from the community. Now let’s say a POW decides to convert to Islam, because she likes the sermons of Muhammad SAW, etc. Now, you have to enter into a nikkah with her, it’s not a “right hand possesses” situation anymore.

And like I said , I think the example to look at would be Maria’s example with Rasulullah SAW. He didn’t even touch her, and that surprised her. She listened to his sermons, learned from him, and then willfully entered into a relationship with him. She had a child, and he showered praise on her and the son, that her son has now has torn her bonds of slavery, and so she was freed. I am not sure if she ever converted to Islam fully though. She was Christian in origin. Her son died in infancy.

If sex slaves were a part of Islam, Rasulullah would set the example by not taking a grand total of TWO, but he would have had hundreds of slaves that were assigned to him only for purpose of sex - the women would hate him, and they would certainly not sire children to become Islamic scholars and live in peace with the other women and his other wives.

I know it’s a hard pill to swallow for us women, but polygamous and polyamorous relationships were a norm in the ancient world, and the concept of concubines existed even into the ottoman empire, and previously existed in various civilizations in ancient history. Common in ancient egypt, greece, roman empires, byzantine empires, etc.

Even Abraham, had a concubine and it was Haager / Hajira. So even the Christians and Jews have to answer these same complicated questions on whether you can have “sex” with your slaves. Because that’s exactly what was done with Hajira, that’s why it was very easy for Sarah to ask Abraham to go and abandon her in a desert somewhere where she literally was starving and thirsty (hence Zam Zam water). So why don’t Christians and Jews ask themselves if the father of their religion was a reckless dad?

eastern11 · February 17, 2015, 4:18am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

Yes, true, Hazrat Hajrah ( RA) was a slave. But married women are allowed as slaves as mentioned in surah 4 verse 24 as their marriage annuls if they are captured.

Monk · February 17, 2015, 4:33am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

kidnapping and ransom of any one was strictly prohibited in quran. Only after a through war it was allowed to take prisoners.
why? that I don’t know. People have theories.
If I have to look, I would start from the women and their condition in war torn areas.

Southie · February 17, 2015, 4:49am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

Got to give kudos to OP. Brought Religion to General. Something about bringing the Mountain to Mohammed, as the old saying goes.

PyariCgudia · February 17, 2015, 6:00am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

Um I just opened the Quran and read that verse and surrounding verses in Sarah Nisa. Nothing about automatic annulment of a marriage If a nonmuslim girl is captured as a POW.

Two things happen as a POW. Either your husband is captured with you or he is killed in battle. Yes then there are exception cases for ex. Your husband is somewhere else when the battle happens and he is neither dead nor captured as a POW. I’m sure the jurisprudence on that would simply be different.

There is a Hadith about POW’s captured as couples - marriages are not broken forcefully when the husband is alive and captured as well.

If husband has died or girl is single to begin with then she is not “distributed” as property but rather she is invited to be a part of a muslim family. She can choose not to. And a muslim man would be brutal to force himself on her.

Verse 19 in the same Surah: you are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should you treat them with harshness.

PyariCgudia · February 17, 2015, 6:02am

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

That verse doesn’t distinguish free believing from non believing women.