Have you ever questioned your belief?

[ajazali]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@muqawwee123

How about this?

BTW, don;t you think ‘being better person’ is a vague term. Even those who commit atrocities consider themselves reformist.

If we cannot decide what is better then why discuss things?
This idea of subjectivity is disseminated by disbelievers.
Going by this logic your post is subjective which carries no meaning.

[Southie]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

I noticed I got a reply from hareem. Thanks. Especially for agreeing since that post was aligned with most rational people.

Same page now. Would you join me in singing kumbaya?

[Southie]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

zafra bud

The other positive trend you are surely excited about is that hug a muslim experiment.

Now, wasn’t that special? Thanks in advance for agreeing.

[Southie]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

Back on topic. There are certain beliefs I have questioned. But I remain unchanged wrt

1. equal rights for ALL - religions races sexual orientation

2. When ANY religion goes against this value, that part of that religion needs to be reformed.

3. Laws shoukd be secular. Religion got no place in govt. (Am not in favor of In God we trust. Or making everyone chant Vande Mataram)

4. Most wars unnecessary
   3 Bombs and drones kill people. Not good

5. Reduce Reuse recycle
   5)reading riting rithmetic

:highfive: x and y

[Zafra]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Southie

zafra bud

The other positive trend you are surely excited about is that hug a muslim experiment.

Now, wasn’t that special? Thanks in advance for agreeing.

Pulled a Cheney didn’t ya? LOL! Seek all my attention you wish.

[Thornewood9]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Southie

Back on topic. There are certain beliefs I have questioned. But I remain unchanged wrt

1. equal rights for ALL - religions races sexual orientation
   God gives everyone equal rights in terms of how you will be judged. The only people who will be held higher in esteem will be those who are more God conscious

2. When ANY religion goes against this value, that part of that religion needs to be reformed.
   If God lays down laws then humans don’t get a choice in saying its wrong and should be changed. God is our Master, we obey Him not the other way around.

3. Laws shoukd be secular. Religion got no place in govt. (Am not in favor of In God we trust. Or making everyone chant Vande Mataram)
   ** See comment above **

4. Most wars unnecessary Agree
   3 Bombs and drones kill people. Not good Agree

5. Reduce Reuse recycle Agree
   5)reading riting rithmetic Agree
   :highfive: x and y

Cool.

[Theorist]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Zafra

So in other words, religion in terms of reality has an equal chance of being valid and ordained from god as not correct?

Which religion?

[Theorist]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Thornewood9

@Theorist I get your point and what you’re saying but actually you can prove/disprove the “signs” of God if you will. For instance the Qur’an. One aspect of this is the actual language of the Qur’an. It is linguistically amazing. And historically it has been stated that Qur’an was orally revealed to the people and only written down in its entirety after the prophet pbuh passed away. The linguistic intricacies were only discovered after he’d passed. Look at Ayat Ul Kursi. Seriously how is it possible for an unlettered man to come up with such literary excellence? And the Quran has been studied by various people both Muslim and non Muslim. The conclusions are always the same. That this book is just perfection. I’m not trying to convert you or force my opinion on you but you don’t just reject an idea without thoroughly looking into it. Nouman Ali khan lost his faith in Islam when he was younger but found his way back and it was through studying the Qur’an. And now he teaches thousands of students Arabic. I don’t know how you lost your faith I’m not going to make assumptions but honestly it takes years to properly study a subject and that too from learned people. Our youth is only a small period of our lives. Too short to conclusively say research is done and that idea is false.

Again, referencing the Quran as proof of God is illogical at this point of the discussion. Some poetry is linguistically amazing and I can say no one else can write with such perfection, but whose idea of perfection is that? The ones who find it amazing, not the ones who don’t. There isn’t a consensus that Quran is linguistically amazing. Many ancient texts are amazing and can’t be recreated. This does not prove anything. It just proves that it’s a good work of literature. There are illiterate people who have amazing abilities. There is a blind man who can draw by sensing things. There are psychics who can sense what happened in a place just by sensing the energy in the air. If they say they hear God and have a message for mankind, would you listen? No. Could they form a cult? Absolutely! The conclusions about Quran are NOT the same. There are many inconsistencies but believers of Quran will always find a work around to make those inconsistencies come together. I have not rejected religion without looking into it. Unfortunately, that’s the assumption people instantly make. I know those scholars and I have seen their lectures but I have also seen lectures from scholars of other religions. All are extremely devoted to their religion and God and they speak with absolute conviction.

[Zafra]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Theorist

Which religion?

Lets stick to the subject and say Islam.

[Thornewood9]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Theorist

Again, referencing the Quran as proof of God is illogical at this point of the discussion. Some poetry is linguistically amazing and I can say no one else can write with such perfection, but whose idea of perfection is that? The ones who find it amazing, not the ones who don’t. There isn’t a consensus that Quran is linguistically amazing. Many ancient texts are amazing and can’t be recreated. This does not prove anything. It just proves that it’s a good work of literature. There are illiterate people who have amazing abilities. There is a blind man who can draw by sensing things. There are psychics who can sense what happened in a place just by sensing the energy in the air. If they say they hear God and have a message for mankind, would you listen? No. Could they form a cult? Absolutely! The conclusions about Quran are NOT the same. There are many inconsistencies but believers of Quran will always find a work around to make those inconsistencies come together. I have not rejected religion without looking into it. Unfortunately, that’s the assumption people instantly make. I know those scholars and I have seen their lectures but I have also seen lectures from scholars of other religions. All are extremely devoted to their religion and God and they speak with absolute conviction.

Okay.

[Theorist]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Monk

1-as an assumption, if there is some thing looked un-earthly in the message, do you have a second theory ?
like alien must have sent it, or devil some thing like that?
Or you want to stick to, there can not be any un earthly messages in the book?

2-Do you believe any thing written down about the prophet ?
from any source, starting from
He did not exist to… what ever.

Once we have a baseline we can build some thing upon it.

You can keep it short. I dont want to derail your encounter with zafra, too much.

1. Yes, aliens. Why not? 2. I believe he existed but beyond that things get questionable. I believe he was an excellent military leader and took care of his people. I can’t say anything of his morals because religious morality doesn’t align with my morals and that’s not and I am not only referring to Islam here. When I say religion, don’t assume I am only talking about Islam.

[Theorist]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Zafra

Lets stick to the subject and say Islam.

As much as any other religion.

[Zafra]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Theorist

As much as any other religion.

See that is intellectually dishonest. But eh not everybody is a saint. So to clarify you agree that Islam could be ordained by god as there is no way to prove it or disprove it?

[Theorist]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Zafra

See that is intellectually dishonest. But eh not everybody is a saint. So to clarify you agree that Islam could be ordained by god as there is no way to prove it or disprove it?

No, it’s not dishonest in any way. It’s the only logical answer to your question. I cannot leave out other religions in favor of Islam. Also, I never made the claim you are making in the last sentence of your post so not sure how you sensed that I agreed to it. Let me make it clear, it has a chance of being ordained by God as much as any other religion. Replace Islam with any other religion and my answer would remain the same.

[eastern11]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

I can believe you must have researched religion completely before rejecting it. Two people I am very close with are very knowledgable about religion and discredit it completely. Both have works of historians like Ibn Khildoon and other literary figures. I do disagree with those two people in my life in many things but do acknowledge that they are well read.

@Theorist

Again, referencing the Quran as proof of God is illogical at this point of the discussion. Some poetry is linguistically amazing and I can say no one else can write with such perfection, but whose idea of perfection is that? The ones who find it amazing, not the ones who don’t. There isn’t a consensus that Quran is linguistically amazing. Many ancient texts are amazing and can’t be recreated. This does not prove anything. It just proves that it’s a good work of literature. There are illiterate people who have amazing abilities. There is a blind man who can draw by sensing things. There are psychics who can sense what happened in a place just by sensing the energy in the air. If they say they hear God and have a message for mankind, would you listen? No. Could they form a cult? Absolutely! The conclusions about Quran are NOT the same. There are many inconsistencies but believers of Quran will always find a work around to make those inconsistencies come together. I have not rejected religion without looking into it. Unfortunately, that’s the assumption people instantly make. I know those scholars and I have seen their lectures but I have also seen lectures from scholars of other religions. All are extremely devoted to their religion and God and they speak with absolute conviction.

[Monk]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Theorist

1. Yes, aliens. Why not?

2. I believe he existed but beyond that things get questionable. I believe he was an excellent military leader and took care of his people. I can’t say anything of his morals because religious morality doesn’t align with my morals and that’s not and I am not only referring to Islam here. When I say religion, don’t assume I am only talking about Islam.

So if I showed you some thing way beyond its time, we will have an understanding that there could be one God(you and I both agree that there could be one God) BUT messages in quran are from aliens ?

I am glad you believe that prophet existed, how ever, I would like to establish a baseline, so Let me ask this,
1-You think he was illiterate ?
2-Is there a chance, after busy doing wars and running country, he some how go around all civilization, and collect knowledge ?
3-Was he other then being warrior, could he be so scholarly, that he would know which theories are right? on whole spectrum of different subjects.

Please remember, keep answers short, one we establish what prophets credentials were, we will talk about quran.

Now we are zero-ed in on some thing, if you expand discussion on big picture and mess islam created, I would assume you came with determination to will no matter how.

Also I know its boring, but I have faith in you you can put through such discussion.

Thank you.

[Zafra]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Theorist

No, it’s not dishonest in any way. It’s the only logical answer to your question. I cannot leave out other religions in favor of Islam. Also, I never made the claim you are making in the last sentence of your post so not sure how you sensed that I agreed to it. Let me make it clear, it has a chance of being ordained by God as much as any other religion. Replace Islam with any other religion and my answer would remain the same.

Absolutely its dishonest. You ask me specifically which religion. I mention Islam to address the concern. You however establish the linkage to evade the question and more specifically the answer as you unwilling to state it.

[Theorist]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Zafra

Absolutely its dishonest. You ask me specifically which religion. I mention Islam to address the concern. You however establish the linkage to evade the question and more specifically the answer as you unwilling to state it.

It was a trick question but you are right I shouldn’t be playing tricks here. I thought my latter post made that pretty clear as to why I can’t answer in favor of one religion, hence the question, “which religion?”

[Theorist]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Monk

So if I showed you some thing way beyond its time, we will have an understanding that there could be one God(you and I both agree that there could be one God) BUT messages in quran are from aliens ?

I am glad you believe that prophet existed, how ever, I would like to establish a baseline, so Let me ask this,
1-You think he was illiterate ?
2-Is there a chance, after busy doing wars and running country, he some how go around all civilization, and collect knowledge ?
3-Was he other then being warrior, could he be so scholarly, that he would know which theories are right? on whole spectrum of different subjects.

Please remember, keep answers short, one we establish what prophets credentials were, we will talk about quran.

Now we are zero-ed in on some thing, if you expand discussion on big picture and mess islam created, I would assume you came with determination to will no matter how.

Also I know its boring, but I have faith in you you can put through such discussion.

Thank you.

yawn You are right it is boring and I am not interested. Do you want to know my formed opinion of Muhammad or you want to hear what you want to hear? The answer to all of your question is a maybe.

[Zafra]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Theorist

It was a trick question but you are right I shouldn’t be playing tricks here. I thought my latter post made that pretty clear as to why I can’t answer in favor of one religion, hence the question, “which religion?”

Who said its in favour? Islam is a subset of religion and you already agreed that religion could possibly be ordained by God. So why not just change religion to Islam, or Judaism?