Have you ever questioned your belief?

[hareem01]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Balthier

The bubble where we think its ok to oppress minorities as long as said oppression is sanctioned by laws made by the majority.

Egalitarianism for me and my kin when in minority, inequality for others?

7th century norms are causing lack of respect for human rights. Its so bad that some nations made their own declaration, because they were not willing to abandon certain principles from the 7th century. Guess in which societies you find more inequality, or which societies contributed more to the benefit of mankind the past few decades?

These are all diversions anyway, and not relevant to the point being made; trying to implement norms of the 7th century in today’s societies is not recipe for success, but rather opposite. Then we can all argue its not been done properly, which would lead to more questions than answers.

I guess you are referring to Saudi Arabia again. Let me tell you that Saudi Arabia’s wahabism has nothing to do with the 7th century. The Wahabism is less than 150 years old…a modern phenomena supported and implemented by the West in order to defeat and destroy the Caliphate of Ottomans.

May be Saudi should’ve used nuclear weapons like US…that would’ve earned them your respect.

[hareem01]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@ajazali

Those are only a few. You cannot take sincerity of a few people to generalize it like majority does not support their atrocities. After all silence is consent, even they elect them.

The sense of freedom and free speech in the West is false. They would go to any limits to silence real threats like in the case of Snowden.

[Zafra]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Balthier

Yes, thats exactly the message I was conveying. Or perhaps it was man willing to learn from his mistakes?

Let me get this straight. 7th century islam is bad but the 200 year cross atlantic slave trade is an improvement?

[Balthier]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@ajazali

Those are only a few. You cannot take sincerity of a few people to generalize it like majority does not support their atrocities. After all silence is consent, even they elect them.

There are many who are opposed to these wars. Which is why many countries refrained from invading Iraq.

This is all beside the point. We are talking about how well societies function from within. There is more equality and sense of true justice in societies, where people are willing to acknowledge evolution of man and his surroundings. If something is wrong, then it will, with time, be deemed wrong.

Don’t see how western foreign policies are related to the muslim world not deeming norms of 7th century as unsuitable for the 21st century.

[Zafra]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Theorist

..what proof do you have that it was written by a higher power? I didn’t say no sources written by humans can be accepted as facts. I said it must be proven true by other means than just saying it’s the word of God. That is actually quite illogical thing to say
I don’t need to prove Qur’an wrong…you need to prove it right. The burden of proof lies with the one who declares not the one who denies…

And you conveniently ignore my question. Care to answer it?

[Zafra]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Theorist

Can you prove to me that Qur’an is from the divine? If not then whatever it says about the prophet is invalid because he is the one it was supposedly revealed to. For every source you post, I can post two debunking its claim just like any other scripture..

I am not going to get into his character but just want to say one thing. An honest and trustworthy person isn’t necessarily merciful or good. Many military leaders were known for being honest and trustworthy but they were also cold hearted and guilty of war crimes.

LMAO! What sources please? Its been 2 days and I have yet to see you provide any of these wonderful sources. Remember you do not believe any sources written by an individual human being as they are based on an agenda. So please what are these sources?

[Balthier]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@hareem01

I guess you are referring to Saudi Arabia again. Let me tell you that Saudi Arabia’s wahabism has nothing to do with the 7th century. The Wahabism is less than 150 years old…a modern phenomena supported and implemented by the West in order to defeat and destroy the Caliphate of Ottomans.

May be Saudi should’ve used nuclear weapons like US…that would’ve earned them your respect.

No I was not talking about Saudi, I was rather mentioning your lack of priciples on matters of equality, claiming rule of the land on matters of equality which does not suit you, since you had the audacity to claim that I was living in a bubble.

Cairo declaration on human rights was adopted in 1990, long after colonization ended. It upheld inequality.

And yes I know its always the west’s fault, muslim world nust never take any responsibility whatsoever on deterioration of their societies from within, cause such introspection might actually lead to improvements. Better to blame the west and claim rule of the land when problems arise. Or better yet, even blame rule of the land on the west.

[Balthier]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Zafra

Let me get this straight. 7th century islam is bad but the 200 year cross atlantic slave trade is an improvement?

And who is using this slave trade as the guiding light for now and eternity? The sole point here is man recognising his mistakes and learning from them.

Instead of diverting it further, do you believe 7th century norms should be adopted at large, yes or no?

No? Why are we having this discussion at all.

Yes? Result is for all to see.

Accept mistakes made in the past, work towards improvement.

[Zafra]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Balthier

And who is using this slave trade as the guiding light for now and eternity? My sole point is man re

Errr…you guys are. I mean lets at least be honest. For the past 3 pages, the entire discussions has revolved around Islam, women and slavery. However when I use the same example its suddenly a faux pas.

Back to my questions. So you consider the 200 year old slave trade where they basically committed mass murder, violate every known human right, raped and abused women from Africa, eradicated tribes completely and millions perished as an improvement compared to 7th century Islam?

Edit: You stated 7th Century Islam is the point of origin. And since then there have been improvements. I am merely testing your theory with reality and facts.

So back to my question or are you gonna evade?

[Balthier]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Zafra

Errr…you guys are. I mean lets at least be honest. For the past 3 pages, the entire discussions has revolved around Islam, women and slavery. However when I use the same example its suddenly a faux pas.

Back to my questions. So you consider the 200 year old slave trade where they basically committed mass murder, violate every known human right, raped and abused women from Africa, eradicated tribes completely and millions perished as an improvement compared to 7th century Islam?

Does the west at large think those guidelines should be upheld for all eternity?

Discussion is on acceping mistakes made in the past, and acknowledging that these principles are not suitable for today’s age.

Problem arises when one continue to uphold certain norms despite knowing that they are not beneficial for the society. I think I’ve repeated this in various forms now.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

Here we go again. Islam doesn’t approve or encourage slavery. It eradicates it , just by a more humane method than dumping millions on the streets without any form of help in transitioning to a normal life. It eradicates by incorporating the slaves into the free population so then eventually over time everyone is free.

We have not even studied details of the early Islamic empire. Prophet had a slave. Zaid. Became one of the Sahabah and fought and was a prominent figure. People went on to hold public offices in the government from being slaves. So how can we say Islam permitted a slave system? This is semantics. Not banning something outright doesn’t mean that thing is encouraged.

Weeding out social Evils slowly is a totally valid method compared to outright bans.

Abusing alcohol dramatically decreased in early Islam, meanwhile what did the Prohibition do in the US?

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

And it’s a fallacy to say third world countries are holding onto 7th century values. Islamic values are more or less judeo-Christian values with the latter being even more ancient.

US, UK and other civilized countries do more to incorporate those values in laws and actually implementing them than countries like Pakistan where religion is a facade but behind closed doors all irreligious things are happening. Pakistan is the antithesis of 7th century values ironically.

Saudi has laws that are barbaric and have no basis in Islam, such as women driving and the reasons for which they behead.

[Balthier]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Zafra

Edit: You stated 7th Century Islam is the point of origin. And since then there have been improvements. I am merely testing your theory with reality and facts.

So back to my question or are you gonna evade?

No, I stated that man is constantly evolving and learning from past mistakes, which needs to be recognised. Its a continuous process. And yes the norms of today’s society are generally more humane than the ones found in the 7th century.

Man is more enlightened now than he was back then. The sole reason you are arguing this is because you view it as an attack on your religion, which it is not.

You know as well as I that inserting norms of middle ages into today’s societies has not yielded favorable results.

[Zafra]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Balthier

Does the west at large think those guidelines should be upheld for all eternity?

Discussion is on acceping mistakes made in the past, and acknowledging that these principles are not suitable for today’s age.

Problem arises when one continue to uphold certain norms despite knowing that they are not beneficial for the society. I think I’ve repeated this in various forms now.

Irrelevant and evading. You stated that morals are not timeless and constantly changing. You set 7th century Islam as the point of origin and stated that things have improved. I am testing the validity of your statement.

Now answer the question.

So you consider the 200 year old slave trade where they basically committed mass murder, violate every known human right, raped and abused women from Africa, eradicated tribes completely and millions perished as an improvement compared to 7th century Islam?

[Zafra]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Balthier

No, I stated that man is constantly evolving and learning from past mistakes, which needs to be recognised. Its a continuous process. And yes the norms of today’s society are generally more humane than the ones found in the 7th century.

Man is more enlightened now than he was back then. The sole reason you are arguing this is because you view it as an attack on your religion, which it is not.

You know as well as I that inserting norms of middle ages into today’s societies has not yielded favorable results.

No. You did not say that at all. This is what you said and i quote.

In the context of time, morals generally improve, rather than deteriorate.

*You also state very clearly that

*We already established a point of origin (7th century) in this context. Morals of man has improved and not deteriorated from the 7th century to today (21st century). Because man’s conditions, enlightenment and intellect have progressed between those two time periods.

[ajazali]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

One who know that following the religion makes him/her a better person would not question his/her faith. Means, he would not need to question his faith in first place.

[Southie]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@ajazali

One who know that following the religion makes him/her a better person would not question his/her faith. Means, he would not need to question his faith in first place.

And we have now come a full circle.

[Southie]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

7th century point of origin
Morality evolving and improving
200 yr slave trade (one step back)
Emancipation (2 steps forward)
Institutionalized racism (1 step back)
Affirmative action (2 steps forward)
Stop and frisk (1 step back)
Justice dept beginning to crack down. (2 steps forward)
Gay bashing (1 step back)
Gay rights including marriage and civil unions (5 steps forward)

Yes. Trend is upward. Doesn’t mean things progress in a straight line.

Cheers!

[Zafra]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Southie

7th century point of origin
Morality evolving and improving
200 yr slave trade (one step back)
Emancipation (2 steps forward)
Institutionalized racism (1 step back)
Affirmative action (2 steps forward)
Stop and frisk (1 step back)
Justice dept beginning to crack down. (2 steps forward)
Gay bashing (1 step back)
Gay rights including marriage and civil unions (5 steps forward)

Yes. Trend is upward. Doesn’t mean things progress in a straight line.

Cheers!

I am sorry the slave trade over 200 years is only a step back? Millions killed one step back? Entire societies eradicated one step back? Seriously?

[ajazali]

Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?

@Southie

And we have now come a full circle.

it was tough to handle na?