Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
I haven’t watched TV in while, Monk bhi… I still don’t know who I am.
As for morals, I don’t claim to be proud of it. I am as, if not more flawed than the next guy.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Try again southie.
Do you know your self if there was not TV + news.
No disrespect just a question.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
ok last try. With believing you are not thug like others.. who hide them selves to attack.
We presented you with a fact, that as a result every women was freed as a result with exception of disable. Like result obtained.
Now you want to over look this proven/played out thing.
I want to ask you.
There was an extraordinarily circumstances, are you expert in any related field to comment on that??
I don’t assume you can assume the role of any one in situation, but at least are you expert on history of that era???
Expert on women in prison ?
Expert on racial segregation ?
Expert on slave history in us or elsewhere ?
Every thing from that time was recorded, did you may be seen statement of angry kids from that time ? Angry freed women ??? Angry ex-wives of prophet ?
What is that you know that we don’t know… do you have any thing other then your feeling ???
PS: I dont want any one to butt in.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Ok. I will try to answer seriously. (I didn’t take it as disrespect).
In order for a person to know himself, there has to be some context. Some baseline.
If there was no news, and if each of us were to be on our own, IMHO, we would have no idea who we are vis a vis others. That is an extreme case.
Without news or TV I still think it is possible to know who we are wrt our immediate surroundings. That is too narrow. With TV and news, we have a larger same size to compare ourselves with. So we know ourselves better?
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Thank you
Thank you
and
Thank you for honest answer. Respect!!
And this is self conscious man talking. Imagine cheetos eating bear drinking in-front of TV,
And what if TV + news was broken ??? as it is as we know…
@Balthier](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/members/balthier.html)
Thats F-in why… morals had to stay out of this mess what you guys live in.
That’s why ability to modify them was TAKEN AWAY from human beings…
so open your bag of chips and learn some morals from fox cnn darkins bill mahr… sam hariss…
let us be…
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Are you an expert in any of that?
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
do see why I said you wasted your student loan???
I said
"
We presented you with a fact, that as a result every women was freed as a result with exception of disable. Like result obtained. "
it translate that , strategy worked against all the human knowledge and odds.
so if I said "some one was buried " its a fact.
I don’t have to doctor for that.
But If you want to show that he was not, you have to show he was not dead but some thing else…
Do I need to make more clear for you to answer ?
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
All you desis think about is money!!! Didn’t you read when I told you I never took any loans for my studies, ever!!! Isn’t interest paid on loans haram any way or is that ok because you will make money when you get a job after you get that education?
You are extremely rude and you choose to attack me, why, because unlike some of the others, I was respectful, and you saw me as weak!!! You can call me names, uneducated and whatever but I will not answer you or engage in further debate with you. I think slavery is wrong and always will be. Now, go away, shoo, pester someone else.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Well interestingly, Rasulullah said that don’t call a slave “slave”, call them “brother”, “sister”, etc, use terms of respect.
The thing is the “slave” wasn’t getting a wage. In today’s time, we think that’s inhumane, how can you force someone to work and not pay them?
In that time period though, the position was more like that of an indentured servant in a way. You did get paid technically, through housing and clothing and access to food, and protection.
In a harsh survival climate like a desert with warring tribes, where violence was norm, where, remember the atrocities of the “kuffar” - burying female babies alive and that sort of thing - it’s hard not to imagine that being a “slave” of a muslim was probably accepted by many.
Because the alternative is far worse.
Like I said, we have seen the results of emancipation here in the US, and it’s effect is STILL SEEN today in black neighborhoods, and situations like Ferguson. Racial mistrust still exists today. I’ve seen it. I’ve grown up seeing the animosities between blacks and whites in the South.
And that’s like how many decades to centuries after Abe Lincoln’s emancipation of the slaves?
Even to this day, they don’t have the same rights. It’s because white americans never made black americans their family. They’ve always been “the others”.
By marrying slaves and fine, even if the nikkahnama was not technically the same, but making a FAMILY bond (not just a sexual bond), with someone who was a “slave” → that person’s future kids were guaranteed to not be bonded labor.
If you have a small town, about 100 slaves working in that town, then if 50 of them get married to civilians, then you’ve cut down slavery by at least 50%.
And that 50% doesn’t need to worry about discrimination, Jim crow laws, and sitting at the back of the bus.
So yeah, I can seriously honestly see that for women at THAT TIME, living in THAT ANTI-SOCIAL climate where the Kuffar acted like how you see ISIS acting today, you can imagine that people did make those kinds of decisions.
Let’s turn the tables so we can relate.
Let’s say you are married to an ISIS fighter. You married a regular guy, and he goes off and joins ISIS. Now there is no official divorce, in American / UK court, you are still married to that person. But they’ve essentially become a different person. Let’s say 5 years go by, and he’s still not coming home, and he still keeps in touch by text, but he’s not the same person anymore, and you can’t convince him to come back home and be a normal civilian.
Now a regular muslim, a non-ISIS fighter, comes up to you and wants to marry you. But there is no way to get an official divorce because your husband refuses to sign divorce papers and lets just imagine for arguments sake, there is no legal way around this.
Remember in 500 AD, there were no official courts that could grant divorce in these kinds of situations that would be recognizable thru all of Saudia Arabia. This was a nomadic society with some towns spread apart, and no major sophisticated legal systems.
So don’t you think in a situation like that it would be UNDERSTANDABLE for a wife married to an ISIS fighter to just give up and accept marriage with another muslim man who is non-ISIS , non-extremist?
Is that muslim guy a rapist? Is he gonna go to hell?
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
I just think we forget who these women were, i.e. these concubines.
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concubine culture was common and accepted by the masses, not just in Arabian towns, but in all over the world, in europe even the idea was common.
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they were married to men who were fighting Rasulullah and his followers. If you backtrack events, these battles weren’t instigated by muslims. It was the Kuffar led by Quraysh tribes and nearing townships that made treaties with the Quraysh that fought the muslims. Many towns made peace treaties with Muhammad - their people were left alone. Quraysh were committing a genocide of the early muslims, so it follows that the people who fought Rasulullah were probably not great people to begin with.
If you are married to a guy who supports genocide, and your husband’s tribe loses a battle, and you’re caught up as party of war “booty”, and you’re taken as a “captive” and you land in Rasullullah’s camp, and ON TOP OF THAT, they’re being nice to you, they’re using terms of respect, they’re not forcing themselves sexually on you, they’re feeding you, keeping you safe and warm, and treating you properly, and down to even agreeing to negotiate with whatever is left of your town so you can be returned to your people… I think at best in all this, you could have a stoic respect for the muslims, or you could simply fall in love with them. And even if despite all this nice treatment you STILL hate the muslims, and want to go back to your wife beating, female baby burying, slave beating, angry non-muslim Arab pagan husband, then I can’t imagine that the original muslim army would have stopped you. Eventually, you would have been released, since most of the area came under muslim rule anyway.
So these captives were not kept captive forever, I would think they were eventually released back. Because HOW MANY captives would have been kept then by the time Abu Bakr became a caliph you think? Just think of how many towns fought Islam, and then succumbed to the rule of Islam and Muhamad’s leadership?
Does that make sense? If town X fought the early muslims, lost, muslims take over the town, eventually town comes to accept Islam, then I think they would have handed the women and children taken captive back. I doubt that the town X would have supported Islam if their women and kids were NEVER handed back to them.
So I just don’t see that the “sex with slaves” bit was something everyone was doing, and that married women were COMMONLY being taken, and that this was all being done against the will of the women. Islam just wouldn’t have spread THAT fast if there was this much bestiality on non-muslims by muslims.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Ah…the bubble we live in.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
^^ This is what I like about you PCG, you lead a civilized discussion unless of course the other person is brusque. I agree with what you say, though I do think that as Muslims we are or were required to invite people to Islam and if they did not convert they had to pay jizia or lands were taken over. Nothing wrong with that. This is what happened all over. And empires were built that way. Not that just that the other side attacked the Muslims.
Yes, the way the other side treated slaves was much worse. I did write that in previous posts. That is their rules are much worse like a father could sell his daughter into slavery ( not sure if it’s Old Testament or New).
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Yes, thats exactly the message I was conveying. Or perhaps it was man willing to learn from his mistakes?
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Can you prove to me that Qur’an is from the divine? If not then whatever it says about the prophet is invalid because he is the one it was supposedly revealed to. For every source you post, I can post two debunking its claim just like any other scripture..
I am not going to get into his character but just want to say one thing. An honest and trustworthy person isn’t necessarily merciful or good. Many military leaders were known for being honest and trustworthy but they were also cold hearted and guilty of war crimes.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
The bubble where we think its ok to oppress minorities as long as said oppression is sanctioned by laws made by the majority.
Egalitarianism for me and my kin when in minority, inequality for others?
7th century norms are causing lack of respect for human rights. Its so bad that some nations made their own declaration, because they were not willing to abandon certain principles from the 7th century. Guess in which societies you find more inequality, or which societies contributed more to the benefit of mankind the past few decades?
These are all diversions anyway, and not relevant to the point being made; trying to implement norms of the 7th century in today’s societies is not recipe for success, but rather opposite. Then we can all argue its not been done properly, which would lead to more questions than answers.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
..what proof do you have that it was written by a higher power? I didn’t say no sources written by humans can be accepted as facts. I said it must be proven true by other means than just saying it’s the word of God. That is actually quite illogical thing to say
I don’t need to prove Qur’an wrong…you need to prove it right. The burden of proof lies with the one who declares not the one who denies…
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Evolution of man and his surroundings is inevitable. Hence why man must be willing to be progressive. Going in a tagent on the atrocities of the west still does not change the fact that implementing norms of the 7th century in today’s society will generally not yield good results.
Also If west has commited or is committing atrocities, then there are people within the western societies, who says it is wrong and must stop. Man must be willing to accept his wrongdoings, much of what went on in the middle ages was wrong, man now knows this.
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Exactly! At least no one is justifying those crimes against humanity with such conviction as if it is something good. There is a reason political systems are corrupted and things are done discreetly because even they know the difference between right and wrong. They know what they are doing is wrong…that is why we have conspiracy theories about what the world governments are doing and it is not out in the open. Consciousness has evolved..
Re: Have you ever questioned your belief?
Those are only a few. You cannot take sincerity of a few people to generalize it like majority does not support their atrocities. After all silence is consent, even they elect them.