Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

[psyah]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

^ Does there have to be a conspiracy involved in everything?

Similarly, you can be told to become a scientist first and then preach what evolution should mean. Has your lack of formal credentials stopped you from confidently asserting your opinions on complex modular biological networks? Yay for freedom of expression. Why begrudge Sanjsingh's curiosity? Many Muslims around the world raise the same concerns ; they don't understand what is being said and done in their name. These topics are rigorously debated by Muslim academics, lawyers, and theologians. Contrary to popular misconception, Islamic history testifies to a tradition of debate and disagreement. Everyone has a right to ask questions, no matter how uncomfortable they make you feel. You may want to present the ummah as a unified monolith of homogeneous ideas, but please note that many Muslims on this forum alone do not subscribe to your school of thought. Acknowledging this diversity of opinion may help alleviate your paranoia. If Sanjsingh has an "agenda," I must be a CIA-Mossad-RAW agent. I also have an Uncle Sam tattoo on my arm. I do.

Peace chaibiskut

I have a sincerity regarding my views and in discovering the truth of a matter. It has nothing to do with being qualified to speak about a matter. I believe ... It is a different matter to say that I do not believe in evolution and comment on so called complex biological processes ... And in order to do so I should be qualified. Yes, if I make up the ideas and concepts, cast my own mechanistic alternatives, but I don't ... My only claim is that evolution is not proven and those that say it is proven are deceived by the ones who want everyone to accept evolution.

This is a completely different kettle of fish to being sincere about how Islam SHOULD be established as a belief system. In one case you want me to study to become a biologist ... But I on the other hand do not want sanjsingh to accept Islam as though it is an academic qualification, but I'm calling on his views to show how Islam should be implemented by at least becoming a Muslim. Do you think he will accept Islam if Muslims start doing what he recommends?

I am not presenting an argument, I am merely contesting it for what it claims to be ... However, sanjsingh is going one step further he is postulating a version of Islam ... Something only scholars would be doing.

Furthermore I think in this instance you speak on his behalf and he likes your post because you two are aligned ... In the matter of his interpretation ... Well if you want to agree with him that is fine ... His words reflect a position that is not the consensus and although I love every Muslim, those who agree with him will find me disagreeing with them in such contentious matters. It is true there are many opinions in Islamic implementation ... It is also true that the consensus is not reflected in the person of sanjsingh ... I hope this clears my position.

[psyah]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

I think you are half-asleep

In which case you have a better opinion about me than I thought. :)

Analyse the treaty ... Carefully ...

Obligation of Muslims ... Honour treaty by not letting MUSLIMS from Makkah join the Medinites, but to return them.

Obligation of Pagans ... Nothing (but peaceful annual passage for Muslims to do Hajj.)

The obligation was what both parties set upon one another ... In this treaty ... The ones who were changing faith were the pagans, the Muslims were returning home to their families in Makkah ... Not becoming pagans as you would like this to be interpreted. Muslims had businesses and loved ones in Makkah and as a result and through dawah pagans in Makkah were also becoming Muslims ... After the treaty was made, the Muslims were dealt with strictly, by preventing them from joining the Muslims in Madinah, but the side-effect of that was more dawah was possible with Muslim presence in Makkah.

The pagans thought that by not having Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) to watch over them they would become pagan again ... But the reverse was happening ... Which through frustration led to the massacre and breaking of the treaty by the pagans.

[psyah]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

What is my agenda? Can you not be more clear?

I can be clear as rain ... But that question is exactly what I would like to ask from you here ... Is it not true that your line of questioning and comments that follow in responses take the shape of you promoting the idea that Islam is a philosophy that requires us to avoid violent action at every cost ... It sounds good ... But unfortunately (for you) Islam does not do that ... It requires us to avoid violence, yes, and use it in circumstances when NOT using it presents a greater problem.

[sanjsingh]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

I can be clear as rain ... But that question is exactly what I would like to ask from you here ... Is it not true that your line of questioning and comments that follow in responses take the shape of you promoting the idea that Islam is a philosophy that requires us to avoid violent action at every cost ... It sounds good ... But unfortunately (for you) Islam does not do that ... It requires us to avoid violence, yes, and use it in circumstances when NOT using it presents a greater problem.

You are thinking a lot into it, I am simply tring to ascertain how tolerant Muslims feel Islam is. Its clear from your posts that you think Muslims have no right to change their religion, and if they do so they may face punishment.
I am glad to see though other Muslims do not think this way, but most Muslim countries do, that much is clear due to their strict laws on the matter.

[shardmanny]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

@sanjsingh

You are thinking a lot into it, I am simply tring to ascertain how tolerant Muslims feel Islam is. Its clear from your posts that you think Muslims have no right to change their religion, and if they do so they may face punishment. I am glad to see though other Muslims do not think this way, but most Muslim countries do, that much is clear due to their strict laws on the matter.

actually this thread title contained buzz words which resonate with a tiny minority faith, not considered muslim, it had a pied piper effect on them coming to this thread and its them who have agreed with you and you with them

[sanjsingh]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

[QUOTE]
actually this thread title contained buzz words which resonate with a tiny minority faith
[/QUOTE]

Which faith is that? I take it you agree with psyah opinions and not say Lethal Kamikazees?

[kchughtai]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

@psyah

In which case you have a better opinion about me than I thought.

Ahh I wish I could agree to you. :). I hope for better in the future:hypo:

Analyse the treaty … Carefully …

Obligation of Muslims … Honour treaty by not letting MUSLIMS from Makkah join the Medinites, but to return them** and not demanding return of those who leave muslims and join makkans **

Obligation of Pagans … Nothing (but peaceful annual passage for Muslims to do Hajj.)

The obligation was what both parties set upon one another … In this treaty … The ones who were changing faith were the pagans, the Muslims were returning home to their families in Makkah … Not becoming pagans as you would like this to be interpreted. Muslims had businesses and loved ones in Makkah and as a result and through dawah pagans in Makkah were also becoming Muslims … After the treaty was made, the Muslims were dealt with strictly, by preventing them from joining the Muslims in Madinah, but the side-effect of that was more dawah was possible with Muslim presence in Makkah.

The pagans thought that by not having Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) to watch over them they would become pagan again … But the reverse was happening … Which through frustration led to the massacre and breaking of the treaty by the pagans.

What was happening is a different story. I was talking about what was in the treaty. you presented half the truth. didn’t talk about the clause where a person leaving the ranks of muslims and going/joining makka will not be returned.

[shopping_fan]

Its funny how non muslims like the OP, having no knowledge of deen Islam should shed such "scholarly" light on it. and many muslims so keen to join the bandwagon.

[psyah]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

@kchughtai

Ahh I wish I could agree to you. :). I hope for better in the future:hypo:

What was happening is a different story. I was talking about what was in the treaty. you presented half the truth. didn’t talk about the clause where a person leaving the ranks of muslims and going/joining makka will not be returned.

I did talk about it, but the people didn’t leave Islam, they just left Madinah. That was the intent of the treaty.

it was you who presented the half-truth … You didn’t mention the condition of the Hajj and you are making it out that the treaty is about conversion to paganism or Islam, but it is not, it is about keeping people in their place, once they have decided to become Muslim after the treaty they remain Makkans …

[lethal_kamikaze]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

@kchughtai

:) you very shrewdly shrugged off the question I asked . As to your question. I am not implying anything and being a muslim am upto bringing to light the REAL teachings of Islam in this regard. I will try and learn as well. There are many scholars or I would not be wrong to say that majority of them are of the view that Apostate must be killed. Some say if he 'propogates' his new religion then the sentence apply. some say that he should be apprehended to recant or if he doesn't, he must be given capital punishment. now tell me who will stand ground in the face of death. only the one who has strength of character and firmness of his beliefs and these guys will punish him for showing integrity. does that ring the bell for you and remind the approach adopted by kuffar during initial days of Islam. Bilal(ra) was severly punished while he kept uttering 'Ahad' 'Ahad'. Islam is light and its torch bearers must not behave as if they are torch bearers of darkness.

In my view, punishment applies if anyone tries to sabotage the peace of the society one way or the other. This person could be an apostate, a blasphemer, a muslim, non-muslim etc. Punishment applies if one pledges alegience to a state and then does treason against it. In religion, a person doing the same is called a munafiq and is not brought under punishment by default. so you guys must understand that deen-e-Islam should not be treated as a state. Punishment may or may not apply (as situation suggests) for a person who changes sides openly. In religion a person doing the same is an apostate and is not given punishment by default.

Peace kchughtai,

For a while lets leave a side the majority of those pplz who says/view that Apostate must be killed. Share ur views in the light of Quran and hadith what both orders us?

I am searching for common ground LK but from another angle. It is good to see that Muslims like you are tolerant of such matters but the fact does remain that the majority of Islamic countries have laws which do not allow freedom of religion and they do this because of their interpretation of Islam.

Peace sanjsingh,

What your belief/religion says about if one act same as it?

[kchughtai]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

[QUOTE]

Peace kchughtai,

For a while lets leave a side the majority of those pplz who says/view that Apostate must be killed. Share ur views in the light of Quran and hadith what both orders us?

[/QUOTE]

Kindly go through my posts (they are not many may be 4-5) and you will know what is my stance. I quoted quranic verses and sunnah as well. will try to find more on this issue. it is your turn to do the same. Kindly quote quranic verses and incidents from the life of the holy prophet (pbuh) where he ordered someone to be punished just for changing his faith.

[sanjsingh]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

[QUOTE]
Peace sanjsingh,

What your belief/religion says about if one act same as it?
[/QUOTE]

If you are asking me what my religion says on this matter,then it is clear that Sikhi allows a person to follow the path they think is right. Enforcing religion upon some one is madness and to punish them to leave is little more than blackmail. It is like joing he mafia, they allow you to join but you cannot leave because if they allow one man to leave then others will follow suit. Thus keeping the collective structure in force enables the destruction of the house to be avoided.

[rommel]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

@sanjsingh

I like to think of Islam as a religion of science and peace, where the prophet Mohammed recognized all humanity as Gods own children so that we are all brothers and sister in his eyes but recently I have read one way or another alot about tolerance in Pakistan and other Muslim countries (or rather lack of it) girls getting kidnapped then changing religion, blasphemy and apostasy laws, rights of minorities etc etc.
Many Pakistanis and Muslims in general will say there is no compulsion in religion and encourage the conversion of non-Muslims but then this does not work both ways. How much freedom is there for say a Hindu Pandit to openly encourage Muslims to leave their religion? In a country where a child can be almost lynched for alleged blashemy I cannot see how any preacher will be given any freedom to say your religion i.e. Islam is wrong but mine is right something which many Muslims take for granted around the world. Then there are apostasy laws which say a Muslim leaving his Islamic faith must be punished by death, if that is not a mockery of “THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION” I really don’t know what is?

PAKISTAN New apostasy bill to impose death on anyone who leaves Islam - Asia News

Freedom of religion in Malaysia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Saudi jailed for discussing the Bible - Washington Times

Pakistan is secular state just have to study government laws for evidence of this it is not ruled by islamic laws even if population is over 90% muslim.

Secondly proof of their is no compulsion in the deen is found in your country India over 800 million hindus who where ruled by the muslims why was these hindus not forced to change their belief?

With no islamic state you will find muslims who have made mockery of islam i agree with you trying a young girl who is disabled called blasphemer, blaming young kids of stealing without evidence sialkot incident and lynching them. This is muslims who are wrong not islam itself.

[lethal_kamikaze]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

Peace All,

Kindly go through my posts (they are not many may be 4-5) and you will know what is my stance. I quoted quranic verses and sunnah as well. will try to find more on this issue. it is your turn to do the same. Kindly quote quranic verses and incidents from the life of the holy prophet (pbuh) where he ordered someone to be punished just for changing his faith.

oky will work on it, Sir! :)

If you are asking me what my religion says on this matter,then it is clear that Sikhi allows a person to follow the path they think is right. Enforcing religion upon some one is madness and to punish them to leave is little more than blackmail. It is like joing he mafia, they allow you to join but you cannot leave because if they allow one man to leave then others will follow suit. Thus keeping the collective structure in force enables the destruction of the house to be avoided.

Is it your personal opinion or a collective affirmation that one can choose any path if they think is right?

[sanjsingh]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

[QUOTE]
Pakistan is secular state just have to study government laws for evidence of this it is not ruled by islamic laws even if population is over 90% muslim
[/QUOTE]

Good to hear that.

[QUOTE]
Secondly proof of their is no compulsion in the deen is found in your country India over 800 million hindus who where ruled by the muslims why was these hindus not forced to change their belief?
[/QUOTE]

Many Muslim rulers,(not all) were intolerant of non-Muslims but that can be down to interpretaion of the religion, so they could be bad Muslims rather than it being a case of Islam being bad.

I do not think I have got a clear cut answer to my question, many Muslims here do accept that Muslims should be free to leave their religion and that non-Muslims can preach their religion in a peaceful manner. Others share the view that apostasy and blashemy laws are correct and thus are intolerant to minorites, which is the case in most Muslim countries.

[sanjsingh]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

Is it your personal opinion or a collective affirmation that one can choose any path if they think is right?

a

I have never come across a Sikh in a Gurdwara or on the street, nor have I read or heard anything to the contrary. Here is a link for you if you’re interested.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Freedom_to_choose

peace LK

[shardmanny]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

@sanjsingh

a

I have never come across a Sikh in a Gurdwara or on the street, nor have I read or heard anything to the contrary. Here is a link for you if you’re interested.

http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Freedom_to_choose

peace LK

seems like you are trying apply sikh philosophy to islam, thats just wrong. you should learn about islam independently

we are more intensive in our submission, based on a more intensive need to submit. we believe in heaven and hell, and a worldly conduct inline with commandments given to us by God

as a general rule, not as answer to any questions posed here on this thread, we believe

we must not kill anyone, except for a good cause

when circumstances permit we choose leniency however at the basic level killing for the propagation or protection of islam can be permissable.

this is in many ways similar but opposite of the non believers, who believe in killing for the protection and propagation of their way of life (deen?), im sure you would have heard the phrase before from being the cause of current/past wars, also the cold war

also since you are sikh: what are the circumstances in which the dagger(the one that must tainted by blood before it returns) comes out? and do you believe in hell?

[sanjsingh]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

[QUOTE]
seems like you are trying apply sikh philosophy to islam, thats just wrong. you should learn about islam independently

[/QUOTE]

I really wasn't trying to bring Sikhi into it, rather I was just answering a question raised by LK

[QUOTE]
we are more intensive in our submission, based on a more intensive need to submit. we believe in heaven and hell, and a worldly conduct inline with commandments given to us by God

as a general rule, not as answer to any questions posed here on this thread, we believe

we must not kill anyone, except for a good cause

[/QUOTE]

That is indeed commendable.

[QUOTE]
when circumstances permit we choose leniency however at the basic level killing for the propagation or protection of islam can be permissable.

[/QUOTE]

The point is though when is such killing permissible? That is down to interpretaion of blashemy laws and Islamic teaching.
Say a man born to Muslims becomes disillusioned with Islam and decides he no longer believes in the teachings of Islam and thinks the prophet Mohammed was wrong. He tries to expalin that to his colleagues in a peaceful manner in an attempt to show them the light , but somebody finds his suggestion that Mohammed was wrong as blasphemous. Should such a person be arrested for his crime? Should he punished for his apostasy?

[sanjsingh]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

[QUOTE]
also since you are sikh: what are the circumstances in which the dagger(the one that must tainted by blood before it returns) comes out? and do you believe in hell?
[/QUOTE]

That is abit of an urban legend, it is not the case that once the Kirpan is drawn that it must make contact with blood. The actual teaching is the Kirpan should not be drawn untill it absolutely needs to be used and thus would make contact with blood anyway.

Sikhs do believe in Hell but not in the way Christians Muslims and Jews think of Hell as a literal place to be punsihed for an eternity. The "Sikh" hell is on this world and and we enter it through reincarnation.

[Raj_ind]

Re: Have Muslims made a mockery of Islam?

Pakistan is secular state just have to study government laws for evidence of this it is not ruled by islamic laws even if population is over 90% muslim.

Secondly proof of their is no compulsion in the deen is found in your country India over 800 million hindus who where ruled by the muslims why was these hindus not forced to change their belief?

With no islamic state you will find muslims who have made mockery of islam i agree with you trying a young girl who is disabled called blasphemer, blaming young kids of stealing without evidence sialkot incident and lynching them. This is muslims who are wrong not islam itself.

[QUOTE]
Pakistan is secular state just have to study government laws for evidence of this it is not ruled by islamic laws even if population is over 90% muslim.

[/QUOTE]

I wonder why muslims who are so true to their faith need to take pain in writing down laws for themselves, in Pakistan and the rest of muslim world. Have they lost faith in ALLAH? dont they find holy quran enough for themselves? Is there any excuse for this act of blasphamy by muslims en masse?

[QUOTE]

Secondly proof of their is no compulsion in the deen is found in your country India over 800 million hindus who where ruled by the muslims why was these hindus not forced to change their belief?

[/QUOTE]

Over 800 million hindus ruled by how many milllion muslims? Is this point really that much valid and shining as it if often presented to show the tolrent face of muslims of past? Was it really possible for handful of reverted muslims to forcefully revert hindus?

And plz someone throw some light upon the mushrikeen of makkah who overnight embraced islam right after fateh makkah??? Could it be termed as the biggest U-turn in history in terms of religlion??? We have pious muslims like Abu-Sufiyan and company who enjoys the image of Islam haters and Pious muslim in one breath, doesnt this sound strangly funny??? If proof of no compulsion in religion is found in India with 800 million strong hindu population, than what Pakistan has to offer in this regard where minorties kept shrinking right after its creation???

[QUOTE]
With no islamic state you will find muslims who have made mockery of islam i agree with you trying a young girl who is disabled called blasphemer, blaming young kids of stealing without evidence sialkot incident and lynching them. This is muslims who are wrong not islam itself.

[/QUOTE]

Holy quran speaks volumes about munafiqeen who swore by the name of Islam with every breath. Were always keen to take advantage Islam offered to them, but were reluctant to take any pain in the name of Islam.