I like to think of Islam as a religion of science and peace, where the prophet Mohammed recognized all humanity as Gods own children so that we are all brothers and sister in his eyes but recently I have read one way or another alot about tolerance in Pakistan and other Muslim countries (or rather lack of it) girls getting kidnapped then changing religion, blasphemy and apostasy laws, rights of minorities etc etc.
Many Pakistanis and Muslims in general will say there is no compulsion in religion and encourage the conversion of non-Muslims but then this does not work both ways. How much freedom is there for say a Hindu Pandit to openly encourage Muslims to leave their religion? In a country where a child can be almost lynched for alleged blashemy I cannot see how any preacher will be given any freedom to say your religion i.e. Islam is wrong but mine is right something which many Muslims take for granted around the world. Then there are apostasy laws which say a Muslim leaving his Islamic faith must be punished by death, if that is not a mockery of “THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION” I really don’t know what is?
It has nothing to do with religion, it has to do with lack of edicuation. Similar things used to happen in christian society of old Europe. Religious intolerance is also practiced in India too, both by Hindus as well as Muslims.
Intolerance is certainily everywhere, I am not here to defend India but their laws are pretty clear when it comes to tolerance but this is written in the statute books in Muslim countries around the world.
Christian countries also had these laws but then realised it was wrong and did something about it and abandoned laws written in the bible.
I'm going to be clear and open so please be attentive ...
It is good to hear that you want "Muslims to be as peaceful as the religion stands for" - but and this is a big BUT ... you don't actually understand the premise of peace that Islam stands for, which is why you raise such contentions hoping that Muslims will become not peaceful but pacifistic.
It may appear as a big blow to some here but the phrase "There is no compulsion in religion" is a bit misleading.
The phrase in Arabic is "La ikraha fiddeen" - No (don't) compulsion in (to) the Deen -
Now Deen is not just any word ... it is the order of Islam ... So the phrase here is "There shall be no compelling people to accept Islam" ... It doesn't technically say that "There shall be no compelling Muslims to remain Muslims" ...
What is quite annoying is that you want us to recognise some sort of contradiction and take your idea of a positive take on that ... I actually think it is the best way to be ... Islam is harsh on it own adherents and very lenient on others ... It allows people to accept it on their own accord, but there is a great warning - that if they so choose it, then to be sure they really want it - because leaving it will not be tolerated.
And it is not tolerated ... otherwise the religion would become a game ... Farcical!
It is more important to be consistent ... than portray ourselves to be something that we are not ... Yes, we prefer "peace" - it is the state of peace that people gain with respect to their relationship with their Lord ... There will always be dissent - voices who want evil to prosper for selfish gain ... Such people have to be stopped with force - that force appears like hatred or opposing peace - but it is not ...
Having said that ... I couldn't find the actual Apostasy Bill/Act 2006 of Pakistani Legislation - Can you care to dig it out for us all to read?
So simply put a person who was in born in a family which happens to be Muslim has no choice to change religion, he or she has to stay in that religion becuase that is Islam and if they decide to leave then they need to be punished?
Do you know the highest number of books written against a religion is written against Islam every year? Where is the tolerance? Show me?
With all due respect when somebody shows you disrespect does that in turn mean you need to do the same. I do agree there is much discrimination in parts of the world media but that does not mean all discussion about Islam should be deemed as racist or propaganda.
So simply put a person who was in born in a family which happens to be Muslim has no choice to change religion, he or she has to stay in that religion becuase that is Islam and if they decide to leave then they need to be punished?
Its not just in Islam. Bible says the same thing.
Deuteronomy 17
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshiped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
So simply put a person who was in born in a family which happens to be Muslim has no choice to change religion, he or she has to stay in that religion becuase that is Islam and if they decide to leave then they need to be punished?
Punishment? That depends on each individual case ... All I said was that it should not be tolerated ...
Yes TLK I realise that but like I said Christian countries mostly abandoned these laws and do not make them a part of their legal system unlike many Islamic countries around the world.
Yes TLK I realise that but like I said Christian countries mostly abandoned these laws and do not make them a part of their legal system unlike many Islamic countries around the world.
Do you want us to abandon the truth from Allah (SWT)? The gesture of abandonment is akin to losing faith ...
Punishment? That depends on each individual case ... All I said was that it should not be tolerated ...
What sort of case would you deem needs to be punished and when should it just not be tolerated?
Say a young Muslim lady, a 20 something wants to become a Buddhist her family try to encourage her to stay in Islam but she has no intention of it, and now her younger siblings want to follow her example, how does one not tolerate it or punish it? Should her family refuse to see her anymore? I appreciate this is just a made up example
The point is does the religion really teach this or it just misinterpretations of Gods actual teachings created by those who wish to manipulate religion to suit their own ends.
I mean does Islam really need to ban Christian people briging a bible to Saudi Arabia or is that a law created by the Saudis which mocks the teachings of Islam. Maybe Islam is in contradiction to the modern view of basic human rights, or maybe it actually is a pioneer of that system, it all depends on ones interpretaion of the religion.
What sort of case would you deem needs to be punished and when should it just not be tolerated?
Say a young Muslim lady, a 20 something wants to become a Buddhist her family try to encourage her to stay in Islam but she has no intention of it, and now her younger siblings want to follow her example, how does one not tolerate it or punish it? Should her family refuse to see her anymore? I appreciate this is just a made up example
First such a family would need to consult someone who can help discuss the reasons for her faith change and try to convince her of her would be folly.
Failing that there should be pressure towards her not to disclose her newly found faith
They may choose to have nothing to do with her
She would not be able to marry any Muslim man as a Buddhist
If she influences other to convert then it is more serious and she should be put on trial to swear an oath to remain silent in her faith
She should be given the option to leave the country if she wants to converts others
If she continues to undermine the country and Islam by spreading either hatred falsehood about Islam and/or her new faith, then that would be treason ... And treason is usually met with a death penalty, by the courts alone.
{Basically it should be made very hard for a person to feel easy converting out of Islam without really weighing up the options}
The point is does the religion really teach this or it just misinterpretations of Gods actual teachings created by those who wish to manipulate religion to suit their own ends.
I mean does Islam really need to ban Christian people briging a bible to Saudi Arabia or is that a law created by the Saudis which mocks the teachings of Islam. Maybe Islam is in contradiction to the modern view of basic human rights, or maybe it actually is a pioneer of that system, it all depends on ones interpretaion of the religion.
Much of Islam is based on human interpretation ... What is consensus amongst the scholars is what counts ... a country's law should be respected, that means followed even if you disagree with it ... If you can't follow it - then don't go there or stay there ...
The laws are made so that Islam is placed at the pinnacle of the value structure ... If a motion is proposed they will evaluate it against the principle of it being in greater favour of Islam or not ... and this may or may not render different answers in different societies ... What counts is the "intention" and the honesty in bringing out the answer ... in which case two Islamic countries with two different results may both be correct and rewarded for their application of the Islamic law ... And Allah (SWT) Knows Best.
Thank you for they honest answer, but say a Muslim did those things to non-Muslims in Pakistan i.e told a Hindu that their religion is incorrect and their prophets were false (something which could be seen as blasphemous if a Hindu said that about the prophet Mohammed) that should be encouraged by Islam as that person would be brought into the house of Islam?
Every religion is "cult-ish" (IMO) to some extent. Islam's aggressive expansion resulted in an inevitable clash with Christiandom. However, Europe underwent industrialization and it's around that time that you begin to see the influence of the more aggressive forms of Islam. Basically, people turned to religion when a historical rival began to surpass their civilization, becoming more fundamentalist in the process, the mockery you speak of. I'm certain that political stability and economic prosperity, which inevitably leads to higher education, would result in Muslims following the spirit of Islam, rather than the letter.
You are welcome … and not at all … There are strict guidelines for discourse with non-Muslims … the gist of them can be found in the Qur’an
And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do. Surat Al-'An`am [6:108] - The Noble Qur’an - ??? ???
Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided. Surat An-Nahl [16:125] - The Noble Qur’an - ??? ???