Hadith & Sunnah is forbidden by Quran

Society Religion & Philosophy
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I am not a Rashad Khalifa follower and I said before I am not into the whole mathematical code thing. But its interesting that the person who made him famous was Ahmed Deedat when he included his mathematical code in his lectures.

Quranist are fragmented and are not united. But I also try to represent only the Quranic verses in my discussions. People approach the Quran differently and nobody should have the right to impose his approach over others.

As far as the two verses 9-28 and 9-29 it was picked up from hadiths that claimed some controversy surrounded these two verses.

I am always amazed at some Sunnis who make a big fuss about some of the Quranist who claim that these two verses are not authentic given the fact that hadiths themselves say many verses are not included in the Quran today and many were lost. It always amazing how Sunnis accept these stories if its in hadiths but do not accept it from anyone else.

Quranist are not united and many Quranist do not recognize the other Quranists when they discuss the Quran with others. Thats not good. I try to broaden my discussions and I realize that we all see the Quran differently and will interpret it differently. My problem with "submitmj" is he does not recognize other Quranist point of view when he discusses and thats not good and is hurting the Quranist cause. Many Quranist do that. They are not able to convince other Quranist of their point of view so they go public and face off with Sunnis and Shias but they never let them know that not all Quranist interpret the Quran their way. Thats not good and is one of the reason why the Quranist are not united. I try to include other interpretations in my discussions. The Quran is not a dogma, its not a sect and there is no set of beliefs to believe in and there is no set of standard rituals and consensus. Pluralism is a must in the Quran. There are major issues that people can agree with like shirk, lying, cheating, betrayal, stinginess, adultery) but in less major issues there will be differences and everybody has to accept the other point of view because the Quran is not private property. Thats what I love about the Quran.

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You astray people are misquoting and wrongly translating Quran. But you will never succeed.

I don’t know why you people are after…this figure nineteen??? It is very simple. Allah the Almighty has said that he has appointed 19 angels as guards of the hell???

Verse 74:27: And what will make you know(exactly) what Hell fire is?]
Verse 74:28: It spares not (any sinner), nor does it leave (anything unburned)]
Verse 74:29: Burning and blackening the skins.]

Verse 74:30: Over it are nineteen (angels as guardian and keepers of Hell)]

Verse 74:31: And we have set none but angels as guardians of the fire. And we have fixed their number(19) only as a** trial** for the disbelievers, in order that the people of scripture (Jews and Christians) may arrive at certainty [that this Quran is the truth as it agrees with their Books regarding the number nineteen (19) which is written in the Torah and Injeel] and that the believers may increase in faith. and that no doubts may be left for the people of the scriptures and the believers and that those in whose hearts is a disease (of hypocrisy) and the disbelievers may say: "What Allah intends by this curious example?"Thus Allah leads astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And none can know the hosts of your Lord but He. And this (Hell) is nothing else than a (warning) reminder to mankind.

TAFSEER OF ABOVE VERSE:** WHEN ALLAH MENTIONED THE GUARDS OF HELL IN THE ABOVE VERSE , ABU JEHAL TOLD THE QURAISH THAT WILL NOT BE A GROUP OF TEN PEOPLE OF US NOT SUFFICIENT TO OWERPOWER ONE ANGEL OUT OF THEIR JEHAL AND AWKWARDNESS AND PROUDENESS? IT IS SAID THAT ONE NAMED KALDA WHO WAS VERY PROUD OF HIS POWER, SAID THAT YOU ONLY CATCH THE TWO OF THEM, FOR THE REST 17, I ALONE IS SUFFICIENT.
THE SAME KALDA CHALLENGED THE PROPHET SEVERAL TIMES FOR WRESTLING BUT EVERY TIME DEFEATED.
**

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My friend, QUranist will NEVER, EVER be united, because, their method makes it impossible to achieve this. Because they follow their whims and not Quran. What they have done is strip away Prophet Mohammad pbuh from Islam.

This means that i am free to interpret Quran in any way i like. Hence you see one Quranist will beleive that prayer is 5 times, other will say 3 times and yet another will say there is NO prayer at all.

One beleives that heaven and hell are spirtual journeys of the soul pther beleives that it is allegory and does not exist at all. In end you do not have anything to turn to, to find who is right. Quran thence becomes itself an irrelevant thing.

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I just highlighted the translation you used. As you can see, the meaning IS THE SAME. You try to discredit me by saying I’m misleading people with the translation I use while your says the EXACT SAME THING!

As far as your tafseer is concerned, they are NOT from Muhammad’s mouth. They are hearsay 200+ years after he died. THe quran came from Muhammad’s mouth, why don’t you trust that?!

So, I ask you again…what is the function of 19 according to the Quran?! I really would like to hear what you believe this allegory means?

Peace
submit

~~~Missing Someone~~~
~~~Missing Someone~~~
165

Re: Hadith & Sunnah is forbidden by Quran

^There is no function of 19. Quran has never said anything about 19 code.

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So, what your are really saying is you do not understand the allegory used in the verse. You say you are ‘muslim’. I urge you to read function #5 of number 19 in Quran. It is in GREEN color.

[74:30] Over it is nineteen.
[74:31] We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,** (4)** to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers;** they will say, ****"What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.
[74:32] Absolutely, (I swear) by the moon.
[74:33] And the night as it passes.
[74:34] And the morning as it shines.
[74:35] This is one of the great miracles.

**GOD says it expose the hypocrites and disbelievers as they are the ones who cannot understand this allegory. It is very clear about this. I’m sure you will say I’m astray, misguided, lost, or whatever. Your insult does not bother me. The fact of the matter is that you do not understand what the allegory in Sura 74:30-35 means. Thus, you are exposed.

Peace
submitmj

](Chapter 74, The Hidden Secret (Al-Muddath-thir) Footnotes)

~Love is SweeT~
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Re: Hadith & Sunnah is forbidden by Quran

“expose” is a strong word. you too have been “thoroughly exposed”. you’re pitting your interpretation of the holy book against everyone else, yet expecting everyone else to believe what you’re saying. :mudhosh:

Oh and the little thing i said about comparing apples to oranges, how right i was. you ARE predictable, you just went and copy/pasted the whole thing again for the millionth time instead of addressing what i wrote. “exposed indeed”

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You are incorrect again. You keep saying it is my interpretation. Yet, I am simply pasting clear Quranic verses up for all to see. How can that be my interpretation?! You just refuse to acknowledge what GOD is telling you. Perhaps it is because *[Quran 39:45] **When GOD ALONE is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the Hereafter shrink with aversion. But when others are mentioned beside Him, they become satisfied.

***peace
submitmj

Hypothetical Question
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You are misguiding people. Verse 30:74 meaning [over there are nineteen (angels and guards over hell)] as Allah Almighty has explained in the following verse i,e 31:74. So in verse 30, there is hidden (angels and guards of the hell)

Now tell me what is special in this 19. They are the number of guards (angels) appointed by Allah to guard the hell. And it is also mentioned in Bible and Torah.

Yes we do believe in the sayings of the Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) because we believe that without the saying of Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) our knowledge of Quran is deficient.

Quran was also written in bookish form after the death of Muhammad (PBUH) by Khalifa Usman. Then why don't you raise doubts over it????

Although hadees were compiled many years after the death of the Prophet(PBUH), but the Tabeien were still alive. And there was very strict criteria of collections of Hadees. If you go and read that criteria, then you will never say anything. They were collected and referenced from people who were true Muslims in every respect not like you whom I don't know ever Prayed also.

You will never understand Quran without Tafseer. It depend upon the circumstances the particular Ayats were revealed, THE SHANE NUZUL. How you will know the SHANE NUZUL? You will have to look for history and the sayings of Prophet(PBUH). OTHERWISE you will misquot Quran out of context like what KUFFAR use/used to do...........

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You are WRONG! The verses says it is allegorical, which means you have to look to the secondary descriptions to understand the meaning. T

As well, HELL has not been created yet. It will be created on the Day of Judgment (Sura 89:73,69:17). So, if the 74:30-31 means the number of angels guarding hell, how is that going to have the function of:

(1) to disturb the disbelievers,
(2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture),
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and
(5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, “What did GOD mean by this allegory?”

On the Day of Judgment when Hell is created it will not matter anymore. It is too late. A person is either going to hell or to heaven. So, how can knowing there are 19 angels in guarding hell going to prove the Quran is from GOD?!?! Exactly, it doesn’t, because the description is ALLEGORICAL like it says in the verse.

Well, what came out of Prophet Muhammad’s mouth was the Quran, nothing else. Hadith & SUnnah came after he died. So, they DID NOT come from him. Thus, is another source besides the Quran. Thus, it is a satanic innovation.

Because 1) GOD says it is complete, perfect and fully detailed (6:19, 38, 114-115, 50:45) . 2) GOD says ‘19’ will prove the Quran is from GOD and is one of the GREAT miracles (74:30-35). 3) In 3:81, GOD says a messenger will come to confirm the Quran. So, I know the QUran is the complete word of GOD or the math would not work.

That is what I’ve been saying all this time! They ARE NOT from the Prophet’s mouth, only the Quran.

After acknowledging hadith and sunnah DID NOT come from Muhammad’s mouth, but from fabricated hearsay, how can you turn around and say we NEED fabrications to understand the Quran.

More importantly, your statement (or should I say your authentic hadiths) goes completely against the teachings in the QUran. GOD makes it very clear that HE is the teacher of the Quran in 55:1-2. As well, if we needed Tafseer why would GOD tell us 4 times:

[54:17] We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?
[54:22] We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?
[54:32] We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?
[54:40] We made the Quran easy to learn. Does any of you wish to learn?

It is amazing how reluctant you are in obeying GOD. You should repent, reform and submit to the will of GOD as laid out in the Quran, before it is too late.

Peace
submitmj

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Re: Hadith & Sunnah is forbidden by Quran

going round in circles i say.

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amazing part of your argument is that its contradicting your own belief. you can argue that Allah's word are above man's words (true) but Allah words were passed as Allah's words to us by a man (prophet told us when his words were a revelation (wahi) and told us when it was not) ... so if Hadith should be forbiden then automatically it nullifies Quarnic words (naoozobillah) as Quran is nothing but Hadith

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Re: Hadith & Sunnah is forbidden by Quran

^
[53:1] I swear by the star when it goes down.
[53:2] Your companion does not err, nor does he go astray;
[53:3] Nor does he speak out of desire.
[53:4] It is naught but revelation that is revealed,
[53:5] The Lord of Mighty Power has taught him,

Abu Dawud’s As-Sunan; 2/176:
..Abdullah Bin Amr: People of Quraish told me not to record every single word
said by the Prophet (peace be upon him) since he was an ordinary human who
may be erring when he is enraged. I ceased the recording and told the Prophet of
their words. He pointed at his mouth with the finger and ordered: “Record every
thing. By the Prevailing of my soul I take the oath, nothing but truth comes out of
my mouth.”

Also recorded in:

Ahmed’s Al-Musned; 2/192 and 215
Al-Hakim’s Al-Mustedrak; 1/105 and 3/528.

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Re: Hadith & Sunnah is forbidden by Quran

Paglu am I right to assume that you agree with what I said ..

excellent reference btw

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These are not the issues the Quran looks at. Some say its because the Quran is incomplete, others say because the Quran is not concerned about it. When the Quran says be good to thy neighbours, do we ask how to do so? When it says do not walk with arrogance since you will not reach the height of mountains, do we ask how to do that? The Quran says be mindful of your obligation, do we ask how? The Quran says we should pray regularly and wash before we do so and we should stand or bow or pray with humility and awe and wes hould not approach it intoxicated and we whould praise God and seek his forgiveness and ask for guidance. Now we need to ask how we pray? And is that a reason to abandon the Quran and accept everything that contradicts it? Plus how do you know that how you pray now is what the prophet recomedned and why did not God warn us to pray that way but bothered telling us how to do wadu?

Whether you walk or jog or ride a bike, excercising is excercising. It all burn calories, some do it everyday and burn more calories other do it 3 to 4 times a week. Many of your arguments are somewhat childish and give the impression that humans are babies that need to be told everything. The Quran tells us how to do wadu, so its clear it sees that it gave us everything. I have no problem but you do so thats your business. I don't see the lack of unity of the Quranist as something permanent since its still in its infancy and information is slowly spreading. But you would not see the bloodbath in Somalia and Iraq and in Pakistan from Quranist. These are things the sects do.

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Re: Hadith & Sunnah is forbidden by Quran

^Bloodbath in somalia and iraq has nothing to do with sects.

Frankly, i am done with discussion with you because, its impossible to do that with one who dodges the point and responds with somethign irrelevant or does not accept the factual. I had directed your attention that Prophet Mohammad pbuh did not just hand down the Quran to people and thats all, he also established a community based on it. A lot that you see has been consistently recorded in history for last 1400 years and only a fool can deny it. Such as Adhan, prayer, fasting, Hajj, Zakat, Nikah, Talaq etc And then someone says that all that is fabricated stories, then one shud beter beleive that Roman empire is a fabvrioctaed story also.

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SUMMUN, BUKMUN, UMYUN, FAHUM LA YARJEOÓN:

DEAR BROTHERS/SISTERS LEAVE THESE SO CALLED QURANISTS (DEVILS) AS THEY ARE. THEIR HEARTS ARE SOWN.

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Quran came from Muhammad's mouth. Hadith and Sunnah DID NOT come from Muhammad's mouth. You have even admitted they came after he died, meaning they are 'hearsay', rumor, third (even 4th & 5th) party information, yet you say I 'do not accept the factual' and that Muhammad handed down MORE than the Quran. Stop beating around the bush. You have no Quranic argument to support your upholding of lies next to Quran.

All i have been trying to tell you is to follow the Quran as decreed in Quran. Remember what Muhammad will say on the day of judgment...

[Quran 25:30] The messenger* said, "My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran."

And this is a VERY clear verse. There is no 'mistranslating' this.

peace
submitmj

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Its not the Roman empire thats fabricated but we know the doctrine of the divinity of Jesus and the trinity was introduced around 320 A.D. Also we are here talking about major contradiction between the Quran and the teachings of the sects. I have shown many examples of the difference. The prophet set up a community but thats due to the specifics of his biography. Many prophets didn't like Jesus, Lot or Noah. Your arguments tend to be fragmented and it seems based on defending the teachings of the sects rather than based on any actual adherence to the Quran. There is simply no escaping the many contradiction of between the teachings of the Quran and the teachings of the Sunnah. The hadith were themselves compiled centuries later like the trinity was introduced as a doctrine by the Church. there is nothing called trinity in the Gospel. The Jews came with the Talmud and jesus condemned the Talmudic excesses because of its abrogation of the Old Testament. By somehow Muslims believe they can abrogate the Quran. It is always some special status they expect.

As far as rituals, they are a means to an end and not an end by themselves. Tha pagans also prayed and bowed and had pilgrimages and rituals and religious ceremonies and rites. Read verse 2.177 .

22.34 To every people did We appoint rites (of sacrifice), that they might celebrate the name of Allah over the sustenance He gave them from animals (fit for food). But your Allah is One Allah. submit then your wills to Him (in Islam): and give thou the good news to those who humble themselves,-

22*.* 36-37 The sacrificial camels we have made for you as among the symbols from Allah. in them is (much) good for you: then pronounce the name of Allah over them as they line up (for sacrifice): when they are down on their sides (after slaughter), eat ye thereof, and feed such as (beg not but) live in contentment, and such as beg with due humility: thus have We made animals subject to you, that ye may be grateful. It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah. it is your piety that reaches Him: He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right.

Rituals and rites and religious ceremonies are a means to an end and not an end by themselves.

You seem unable to seperate faith from rituals and you emphasize rituals where rituals are an end by themselves. This is just some of the differences between the Quran and sectarian teachings. They are actually traditions and heritages. The Quran came to bring monotheism and faith in the in an after life and thats what the pagans refused. These rituals were probably around before Muhammad was even born. Even Sunnis say the Ka'ba was around before Muhammad and people used to make tawwaf around it but they used to serve many Gods. Your analysis seems to look at the legacy of the Quran without looking at the audience it came to. there are many rituals and temples and places of worship in the Old Testament and many rites were done by many communities. Abraham built many places of worship.

22.18 Seest thou not that to Allah bow down in worship all things that are in the heavens and on earth,- the sun, the moon, the stars; the hills, the trees, the animals; and a great number among mankind? But a great number are (also) such as are fit for Punishment: and such as Allah shall disgrace,- None can raise to honour: for Allah carries out all that He wills.

Notice also how the Quran accepts all forms of prayers:

22.26 26. Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying): "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).

This is the prayers of the Quran! People pray standing or bowing or prostarting and some do pilgrimage and do tawwaf and some slaughter animals for praise and give to the poor and eat and have a feast and praise God. This was happening long before Muhammad was even born and is virtually in every nation on earth throughout history.

You still can't seem to believe there is two Islam here. One is the Quran and the other is the sects. Anyone can see that. Muslims expect special status but there is no special status, each community will be judged based on the scriptures they inherited. Every nation has rituals and rites. But what the sects did is they claimed the prophet came with a "new Shariah" and everything and everybody has been abrogated. This is tribalism and not Islam.
Read chapter 5 verse 42-49.

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Quran = words of God spoken through the tongue of the Rasool Allah (saww)
Hadith = words spoken by Rasool Allah (saww), with each and every word containing nothing but the truth and each word representing the WILL of God.