You can try to flip it on me all you want, but you know full well what I meant by posting those hadith. I was showing the irony that you claim you need hadith & sunnah in addition to Quran, yet when there is a hadith condemning what you are doing, AND is in perfect sync with Quran, it is completely disregarded. It just goes to show that not only do you disobey the Quran by upholding ‘other’ sources of religious guidance, but you don’t even follow the fabrications your claim are needed.
I reject all other sources of religious guidance. I follow only the Quran. Why?
The Quran says that Muhammad was forbidden from giving his own explanations of Quran, or from issuing any other teachings - or he would have been punished.
God is the teacher of Quran
[55:1] The Most Gracious.
[55:2] Teacher of the Quran.
Muhammad forbidden from giving his own explanations
[75:16] Do not move your tongue to hasten it.
[75:17] It is we who will collect it into Quran.
[75:18] Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Quran.
[75:19] Then it is we who will explain it.
Muhammad Forbidden from Issuing Any Religious Teachings
[69:40] This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
[69:41] Not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
[69:42] Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
[69:43] A revelation from the Lord of the universe.
[69:44] Had he uttered any other teachings.
[69:45] **We would have punished him. **
[69:46] We would have stopped the revelations to him.
[69:47] None of you could have helped him.
What Muhammad did was, when asked, give the correct understanding of the Quran by studying the Quran itself, not any other source.
Muhammad was responsible for delivering the Quran which means bringing and giving the correct message. He could not guide anyone. The Quran was sufficient for him, and should be for any muslim. I have show many verses to support ONLY Quran, and no other sources. So, I ask again……show me one verse in the Quran, Old Testament, or the New Testament that says it is OKAY to uphold OTHER sources of religious guidance instead of GOD’s words.
Peace
submit, let us stop this hide and seek game and answer my simple questions:
why do you trust the Qur'an, meaning it is persevered? Is it because the Qur'an says that trust me? If so, how do you know what Qur'an says in fact is correct and not written by men?
And
^Are you knowledgeable enough to understand and interpret the Qur'an?
AND
Were ahadith written after 200 years of Prophet's (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam) death? Yes or no?
submit, let us stop this hide and seek game and answer my simple questions:
And
AND
Were ahadith written after 200 years of Prophet's (sal-allahu alayhi wa sallam) death? Yes or no?
I'm not playing hide and seek. I have answered your questions already.
1) YES, hadith were written approx. 200 years after Prophet Muhammad's death.
2) As decreed in Sura 74:30-35, the math miracle of Quran which described as 'One of the Great miracles (74:35)' proved 1) the Quran is from GOD, and 2) it is complete and fully detailed.
I was clear in prior posts. Now, I do not know how much more direct I can be than this. Unless you still consider this playing 'hide and seek'.
Muhammad Forbidden from Issuing Any Religious Teachings
[69:40] This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
[69:41] Not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
[69:42] Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
[69:43] A revelation from the Lord of the universe.
[69:44] Had he uttered any other teachings.
[69:45] We would have punished him. **
[69:46] We would have **stopped the revelations to him.
[69:47] None of you could have helped him.
Peace
submitmj
Peace again submitmj
This passage in the Qur'an is the response Allah (SWT) gave to those rejectors who accused Muhammad (SAW) of attributing to God his own words.
So the context of this is the Words of the Qur'an itself, it is not the teachings that support the Qur'an. You have posted verse 69:44 erroneously and hence are making it seem that ANY OTHER TEACHINGS are what Muhammad (SAW) would have been punished for doing, but really the Qur'an says in this verse:
"wa law, taqawwala, 'alaina, ba'da-al-aqaaweel"
"And if, he forged, CONCERNING US, some false sayings"
i.e. if Muhammad (SAW) attributed his own words passing them off as those of the Words of Allah (SWT) then ... however, your false translation is making it out that ANY OTHER TEACHING is the condition for punishment here.
ALL PLEASE BE MINDFUL OF THE TRANSLATION THIS PERSON IS USING .... USE THE ARABIC OR CREDIBLE TRANSLATION TO DEFLATE HIS ARGUMENTS <<<<<<<<
I’m not flipping anything on you. Clearly you’re just parroting the same over and over despite others having raised some valid questions which you refuse to answer. Instead you go in circular arguments, but in the process of doing so you are not only doing yourself a disservice, but a great disservice to your “message” that you seem to want everyone to understand. Misquoting and taking verses out of context will not prove your point.
1) YES, hadith were written approx. 200 years after Prophet Muhammad's death.
and your evidence for this is?
2) As decreed in Sura 74:30-35, the math miracle of Quran which described as 'One of the Great miracles (74:35)' proved 1) the Quran is from GOD, and 2) it is complete and fully detailed.
I am not asking you what is written in the Qur'an. I am asking you how can you trust the Qur'an when it was also compiled and transmitted by men? How do you know that men did not write these ayaat in the Qur'an? You say ahadith are men-made and we cannot trust them but how can you trust the Qur'an when it was compiled, memorized, transmitted by same men who compiled, memorized and transited the ahadith. In fact, it is through ahadith that we know which is the Qur'an and which is not. Unless you were to say that Prophet (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) or Allah Ta'ala came to your home to give you the Qur'an. If we were to use your logic and argumen then why do you heretics NOT discard the Qur'an?
The argument that "Qur'an is persevered because the Qur'an says so" is the utmost stupid argument.
I was clear in prior posts. Now, I do not know how much more direct I can be than this. Unless you still consider this playing 'hide and seek'.
it is hide and seek because you are avoiding the simplest questions and running away.
I am not asking you what is written in the Qur'an. I am asking you how can you trust the Qur'an when it was also compiled and transmitted by men? How do you know that men did not write these ayaat in the Qur'an? You say ahadith are men-made and we cannot trust them but how can you trust the Qur'an when it was compiled, memorized, transmitted by same men who compiled, memorized and transited the ahadith. In fact, it is through ahadith that we know which is the Qur'an and which is not. Unless you were to say that Prophet (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) or Allah Ta'ala came to your home to give you the Qur'an. If we were to use your logic and argumen then why do you heretics NOT discard the Qur'an?
The argument that "Qur'an is persevered because the Qur'an says so" is the utmost stupid argument.
it is hide and seek because you are avoiding the simplest questions and running away.
Because the Quran is beyond the work of human. Hadith are hearsay.
First of all, I have answered all your questions. All you have to do is read the verses to see that ‘other’ sources of religious guidance next to Quran are forbidden for muslims. You can claim it is my argument all you want, but it is the clear verses you are disregarding, not me.
The first revelation was “Read,” and included the statement “God teaches by means of the pen” (96:1-4), and the second revelation was “The Pen” (68:1). The only function of the pen is to write.
Ignorant Muslim scholars of the first two centuries after the Quran could not understand the Quran’s challenge to produce anything like it. They had no idea about the Quran’s mathematical composition, and they knew that many literary giants could have composed works comparable to the Quran. In fact, many such literary giants did claim the ability to produce a literary work as excellent as the Quran. The latest claim came from Taha Hussein, the renowned Egyptian writer.
The ignorant Muslim scholars then decided to proclaim Muhammad an illiterate man! They figured that this would make the Quran's extraordinary literary excellence truly miraculous. The word they relied on to bestow illiteracy upon the Prophet was "UMMY." Unfortunately for those "scholars," this word clearly means "Gentile," or one who does not follow any scripture (Torah, Injeel, or Quran) [see [2:78](http://www.submission.info/quran/noframes/ch2.html#78), [3:20](http://www.submission.info/quran/noframes/ch3.html#20) & [75](http://www.submission.info/quran/noframes/ch3.html#75), [62:2](http://www.submission.info/quran/noframes/ch62.html#2)]; it does NOT mean "illiterate."
The Prophet was a successful merchant. The “Muslim scholars” who fabricated the illiteracy lie forgot that there were no numbers during the Prophet’s time; the letters of the alphabet were used as numbers. As a merchant dealing with numbers every day, the Prophet had to know the alphabet, from one to one-thousand.
The Quran tells us that Muhammad wrote down the Quran - Muhammad’s contemporaries are quoted as saying, “These are tales from the past that he wrote down. They are being dictated to him day and night” (25:5). You cannot “dictate” to an illiterate person. The Prophet’s enemies who accuse him of illiteracy abuse Verse 29:48, which relates specifically to previous scriptures.
On the 27th night of Ramadan 13 B.H. (Before Hijerah), Muhammad the soul, the real person, not the body, was summoned to the highest universe and the Quran was given to him (2:97, 17:1, 44:3, 53:1-18, 97:1-5). Subsequently, the angel Gabriel helped Muhammad release a few verses of the Quran at a time, from the soul to Muhammad’s memory. The Prophet wrote down and memorized the verses just released into his mind. When the Prophet died, he left the complete Quran written down with his own hand in the chronological order of revelation, along with specific instructions as to where to place every verse. The divine instructions recorded by the Prophet were designed to put the Quran together into the final format intended for God’s Final Testament to the world (75:17). The early Muslims did not get around to putting the Quran together until the time of Khalifa Rashed `Uthmaan. A committee was appointed to carry out this task.
^ 'Submitters' are not even content with the Qur'an ... they want to suggest that there are two verses in addition in the Qur'an only to make the magic 19 number fit with the patterns. This is the level of faith they have in "preserved" Qur'an.
Because the Quran is beyond the work of human. Hadith are hearsay.
answer the questions. How do you know the Qur'an is preserved!? It is a very simple and straight froward. How come you guys cannot answer this simple question and running away. Just because the Qur'an is beyond the work of humans is not an evidence that it is fully preserved and nothing was lost or added.
WRONG: the Qur'an was put together during the time of Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him). Heretic, this is another evidence for your ignorance of history. Even if I agree with you, where did you get this fact? Did Uthman (radiAllahu anho) come to your home to tell you? How do you know they compiled the Qur'an perfectly and did not make a single mistake!? Nither they wrote down their own words in it, like they did for ahadith (according to you)!?
I am still waiting for these:
[quote]
1) YES, hadith were written approx. 200 years after Prophet Muhammad's death.
and your evidence for this is?
2) As decreed in Sura 74:30-35, the math miracle of Quran which described as 'One of the Great miracles (74:35)' proved 1) the Quran is from GOD, and 2) it is complete and fully detailed.
I am not asking you what is written in the Qur'an. I am asking you how can you trust the Qur'an when it was also compiled and transmitted by men? How do you know that men did not write these ayaat in the Qur'an? You say ahadith are men-made and we cannot trust them but how can you trust the Qur'an when it was compiled, memorized, transmitted by same men who compiled, memorized and transited the ahadith. In fact, it is through ahadith that we know which is the Qur'an and which is not. Unless you were to say that Prophet (sal-allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) or Allah Ta'ala came to your home to give you the Qur'an. If we were to use your logic and argumen then why do you heretics NOT discard the Qur'an?
**
The argument that "Qur'an is persevered because the Qur'an says so" is the utmost stupid argument.**
[/quote]
*In the meantime, 'Umar sat on the pulpit and when the callmakers for the prayer had finished their call, 'Umar stood up, and having glorified and praised Allah as He deserved, he said, "Now then, I am going to tell you something which (Allah) has written for me to say. I do not know; perhaps it portends my death, so whoever understands and remembers it, must narrate it to the others wherever his mount takes him, but if somebody is afraid that he does not understand it, then it is unlawful for him to tell lies about me. Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah’s Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him. *
*I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, ‘By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah’s Book,’ and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed. And the punishment of the Rajam is to be inflicted to any married person (male & female), who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if the required evidence is available or there is conception or confession. **And then we used to recite among the Verses in Allah’s Book: ‘O people! Do not claim to be the offspring of other than your fathers, as it is disbelief (unthankfulness) on your part that you claim to be the offspring of other than your real father.’ **Then Allah’s Apostle said, ‘Do not praise me excessively as Jesus, son of Marry was praised, but call me Allah’s Slave and His Apostles.’ (O people!) I have been informed that a speaker amongst you says, 'By Allah, if ‘Umar should die, I will give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-such person.’ One should not deceive oneself by saying that the pledge of allegiance given to Abu Bakr was given suddenly and it was successful. No doubt, it was like that, but Allah saved (the people) from its evil, and there is none among you who has the qualities of Abu Bakr. Remember that whoever gives the pledge of allegiance to anybody among you without consulting the other Muslims, neither that person, nor the person to whom the pledge of allegiance was given, are to be supported, lest they both should be killed. *
So it seems your own hadith talk about verses missing. Ibn Hanbal recorded a hadith by Aisha regarding this missing verse about stoning adulterers:
Aisha reported:
“When the verses “Rajm” [Stoning] and ayah “Rezah Kabir” descended, they were written on a piece of paper and kept under my pillow. Following the demise of Prophet Muhammad (S) a goat ate the piece of paper while we were mourning.”
Another translation says:
“The verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah (SAWW.) expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.”
So it seems Sunnis believe the Quran we have today is missng. I even read a fatwa by a Sunni cleric proudly confirm this. And you are asking me how do I know the Quran is complete!
The Quran is a sign of God among many signs of God. Many early followers of the prophet believed in him before the Quran was completed. In fact some even believed in him very early when the Quran was just being revealed and many died that way without even hearing most of the Quran. Moses’s stick turning to snake is a sign and so is Jesus raising the dead. The magicians of the Pharoah bowed down and proclaimed the God of Moses when they say Moses turning the rod to a snake. The Quran says there are many of God’s signs:
Quran 30 : 20 -26
Among His signs is [the fact] that he has created you from dust; then you were propagated as human beings.
Among His signs is that He has created spouses for you from among yourselves so that you may console yourselves with them. He has planted affection and mercy between you; in that are signs for people who think things over.
Among His signs are the creation of Heaven and Earth, as well as the diversity in your tongues and colors. In that are signs for those who know.
Among His signs are your sleeping at night and by day, and your pursuit of His bounty. In that are signs for any folk who listen.
Among His signs is how He shows you lightning for both fear and anticipation. He sends water down from the sky so He may revive the earth with it following its death. In that are signs for folk who use their reason.
Among His signs are [the fact] that the sky and earth hold firm at His command. Then whenever He calls you forth out of the earth once and for all, you will (all) come forth! * Anyone who is in Heaven and Earth belongs to Him; all are subservient to Him.
Quran 41:37
and among his signs are the night and the day and the sun and the moon; do not prostrate to the sun nor to the moon; and prostrate to Allah who created them, if Him it is that you serve.
^ 'Submitters' are not even content with the Qur'an ... they want to suggest that there are two verses in addition in the Qur'an only to make the magic 19 number fit with the patterns. This is the level of faith they have in "preserved" Qur'an.
These are Verses 128 and 129 of Sura 9.
1) Perhaps you should verify the math miracle for yourself. After all, you are commanded to verify all information for yourself before accepting or rejecting it. In addition, GOD does say in 74:31 the math miracle of '19' will have the following functions.
(1) to disturb the disbelievers,
(2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture),
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and
(5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.
Of course, you have shown you do not believe the miracle is real even though, 74:35 says it is one of the great miracles. You disbelieve in GOD's revelations is apparent.
2) those 2 verses were always suspect. The math miracle just confirmed what islamic scholars initially thought. Of course, since the math miracle proves every word of the Quran is from GOD, that means every word is absolute truth. Thus, to accept the math miracle is to accept that muslims today do not follow the Quran. As a results, they reject it. After all....
[Quran 21:2] When a proof comes to them from their Lord, that is new, they listen to it heedlessly.
Thus, you are not doing anything that has not already been predicted. After all, GOD know best.
1) Perhaps you should verify the math miracle for yourself. After all, you are commanded to verify all information for yourself before accepting or rejecting it. In addition, GOD does say in 74:31 the math miracle of '19' will have the following functions.
(1) to disturb the disbelievers,
(2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture),
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and
(5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.
Of course, you have shown you do not believe the miracle is real even though, 74:35 says it is one of the great miracles. You disbelieve in GOD's revelations is apparent.
2) those 2 verses were always suspect. The math miracle just confirmed what islamic scholars initially thought. Of course, since the math miracle proves every word of the Quran is from GOD, that means every word is absolute truth. Thus, to accept the math miracle is to accept that muslims today do not follow the Quran. As a results, they reject it. After all....
[Quran 21:2] When a proof comes to them from their Lord, that is new, they listen to it heedlessly.
Thus, you are not doing anything that has not already been predicted. After all, GOD know best.
peace
submitmj
This post of yours is a minefield for misrepresented context, so I will not even address it, because clearly you have not said whether you reject those two verse I have asked you about.
Do people trust the word in Quran and not Ahadith?
Do they forget that even the Quran was transferred from heart to heart of MEN.
We were not there when the Quran came down, we did not see it coming through the Angel Jibraeel a.s. Yet, this hardcore belief in the Quran comes from where?
1500 years ago, You come on a forum and talk about how the Quran negates the basis of Ahadith, yet, you forget the Quran itself was passed down from Man to Man. How do you justify the Quran?
Forget trying to justify if Ahadith is word of God, try Justifying the Quran isnt.
Do people trust the word in Quran and not Ahadith?
Do they forget that even the Quran was transferred from heart to heart of MEN.
We were not there when the Quran came down, we did not see it coming through the Angel Jibraeel a.s. Yet, this hardcore belief in the Quran comes from where?
1500 years ago, You come on a forum and talk about how the Quran negates the basis of Ahadith, yet, you forget the Quran itself was passed down from Man to Man. How do you justify the Quran?
Forget trying to justify if Ahadith is word of God, try Justifying the Quran isnt.
Threads like these are a waste of time, honestly.
If you would look at the Risala of Imam Shafi you would know even after 150 years after the prophet nobody heard of the concept of Sunnah let alone hadith. Everybody knew the Quran and they also knew about the rituals like haj and salat etc. But they never heard of anything called Sunnah or hadith.
I have quoted from Al Shafi's Risala and you can clearly see Shafi was tryng to lay the case for a new revelation he said was in the hands of "specialists" and a "few authorities" nobody heard of or seen of. After Al Shafi an explosion of hadith took place culminating in Bukhari and Imam Muslim collection.
So please don't try to equate the Quran with hadiths.
Yes, I reject them. There were two false verses added after the death of Prophet Muhammad. These two verses were always suspect by muslim scholars for centuries, but the math miracle irrefutably proved their suspicions were correct, and the last two verses of Sura 9 were blasphemously added to the Quran. The fact that Sura 9 is the only Sura that DOES NOT have the ‘Bismallah’ should be a glaring sign from GOD that this sura has been tampered with. If it wasn’t, GOD would have put His signature on it (In the Name of GOD, Most Gracious, Most Merciful).
I know this probably comes as a surprise to you as it does to most muslims, but, I assure you, they are false and there is a shocking amount of evidence supporting this. If you believe the math miracle is real (which it is), GOD willing, it should be easy to recognize the math proofs as well as the clear contradictions of what these last two verses are actually saying. They are giving Muhammad attributes of GOD, by saying he is merciful when 1) only GOD has the power to grant mercy because there is no intercession, and 2) GOD has specifically stated in the Quran that ‘MERCY’ is GOD’s attribute. Of all the attributes, GOD specifically states ‘Mercy’ is HIS.
[Quran 6:12] Say, “To whom belongs everything in the heavens and the earth?” Say, “To GOD.” He has DECREED THAT MERCY IS HIS ATTRIBUTE…
[Quran 6:54] … Your Lord has DECREED THAT MERCY IS HIS ATTRIBUTE.
So, ask yourself…does it make sense that Muhammad would have the ability to grant mercy, to grant forgiveness for people’s sins, when the entire Quran states over and over again that GOD is the ONLY one with power and the only one who can forgive our sins?
Anyhow, here is all the math miracle proofs that these verses were added after Muhammad died. The proofs that 9:128 and 129 are false is a miracle on it’s own. Glory be to GOD. Proof Of GOD - Appendix 24
Please note: There are many more proofs that what is presented in the above link. For example, here is just one that you won’t find there to show you the awesome precision and design by GOD with HIS Quran.
The last word of the Basmalah: “Raheem” (Merciful). This word is used in the Quran exclusively as a name of God, and its total count is 114 (19x6), after removing the word “Raheem” of the false verse 9:128, in which “Raheem” refers to the prophet.
When Katerina was working on counting the word Raheem using the index of the words of the Quran, she first found 115 occurrences. Then she realized that one of the occurrences was in 9:128. Guess what. When she added the numbers of suras and verses containing 114 words “Raheem,” she found out that their total came up to be 9,128. The sum points directly to the false verse. Glory be to God, Creator of all things. Only GOD could do such things!<<
The evidence is overwhelming and irrefutable. NUMBERS DO NOT LIE, ONLY PEOPLE! Although, I’m sure you will say this is ‘old magic’ or ‘number tricks’ or ‘this is human made’.
I am a Quranist but I do not follow any mathematical codes and i don’t see why these two verses should be missing. To me its just based on Sunni hadiths that Rashad Khalifah relied upon. I don’t think we should follow hadiths when it comes to the Quran since sunni hadiths themselves tell us over 200 vreses of Ahzab Surat are missing. These hadith would make you never rely on the Quran and just believe in sectarian sources, which is what Sunni and Shia sects do anyways.
Many Quranist, in fact most, do not follow any mathematical codes. Anyways i have shown that the Quran is a sign among many signs and many followers of the prophet believed in him when most of the Quran was not even revealed and many died that way.