still you people don't understand that it is we that are ensuring the survival of your state and your cultural and religious freedom...if** we would opt out there will be no Pakistan...still you badmouth us...**
So your agreeing that majority of your people refused to opt out of pakistan and that they dont support greater pushtunistan dream.
Stop day-dreaming ...Pashtuns would never like their areas to be controlled with Islam whether west or east of Durand neither other powers would ever allow it...remeber, as long as intersests of great powers are not challenged you can do what you want to but if their interests are challenged then you cannot escape the wrath of the powerful...
more Pakistan with passage of time would have little capacity to influence things within its own borders what to talk of things beyond its borders...it is time for rational thinking than utopian dreams...
No one is day dreaming here. Are you actually denying the fact that Islam plays a dominant role for Pakhtuns? Afghans were the first to embrace Islam in the region, our history is full instances where our great ancestors have fought for Islam - the very reason why much of what is now Pakistan continued to be dominated by Islam. Pakhtuns have always stepped up to the plate for Islam, it is the same reason why they hate us as well.
Without Islam, Pakistan is nothing to me. It is just a collection of ethnic groups that have little in common. How many times have I defended Pakhtuns against the ignorants, racists on this very board? It is because without Islam we would be nothing. Lets see what happens once the Amrikis pull out of Afghanistan...don't worry we have time to revisit this one: Afghanistan will once again return to its natural order - Pakhtuns will be running the show again.
I am not going hate. I want to see a powerful Pakistan and a Pakhtun controlled Afghanistan - we need to move forward. I don't see an independent Pakhtunistan as a reality - a soft border with Afghanistan, definitely.
going back to the original topic a little bit - pak one and LOTD who do you think woul dhave put those billboards up?
I think that the billboard was put up by anti-state elements. I support ANP as far as their agenda for redevelopment of Pakhtunkhwa, asking for a equitable share in the federation is concerned.
LastofTheDinosaurs I don't think you're a Pashtun from Pakhtunkhwa, I think you're just an Afghan (pretty well spoken for one, most can't even string a 3 word sentence).
I think your ultimate desire is the destruction of Pakistan rather than the welfare of Pashtun people.
Afghans biting the hand that feeds them as usual, bloody gypsy sheepherds.
Kori, why do have to slander LOTD? If he is not from Afghanistan. then what will you do? It is fairly well known that anger and separatism has increased in Pakhtunkhwa due to the Pakistani involvement in this so called 'War on Terror' where the Pakistani military is essentially fighting US's battles.
As for hating on Afghanistan, do you think that Pakistan is all that better? Indirectly occupied by the US, economically broke, and weak leadership (Karzai and Zardari might as well be twins). Stop insulting Afghans.
LOTD - I think India will keep any of those so called future states under the thumb. You really think India will allow a Pakhtunistan when they already claim the Indus which rightly is a part of the geography of India. I doubt any of those countries you mention will ever really be successful in anything - its just a nationalists dream. Most pashtuns in NWFP know that too. What are you talking about most Pashtuns dont want to impose upon Hazara - nationalist Pashtuns have no respect for Hazara and they claim it as their own just because there are some Pashtuns there. just as they claim Mianwali and Attock - in fact some are greedy enough to claim the whole of Balochistan including Gwadar LOL. Most cultures Punjabi pashtun Kashmiri have similarities - the Pashtun from Peshawar city has more in common with the person from Karachi and Lahoe than with the tribal belt. What are you talking about India would love to have Hazara - if it can take Punjab it will take Hazara with it too - many small rivers flow from there and its got the iNdus on the western border. What are you talking about all powers wont interfere in Greater Balochistan and Greater pashtunistan? Youalready have India, America and in the past Russia and Great britain interfering there and they and others will carry on doing it. I very much doubt you will see the idealistic state that you wish for but more of a broken turmoil ridden region occupied by the USA/NATO/ISAF just like Afghanistan and Iraq. India has never been an aggressive power in history? What is it now? Its the most powerful state in the whole of the South Asia and Middle East bar Israel and turkey. Do you think India would never interfere with you? The state you wish for would have no army, no structure at first so would be open to exploitation from outsiders. American policy is supporting india to be the dominant state in the region and whether you have Pakistan, pashtunistan, balochistan....the Americans will want them all to be under the Influence of India. pashtun unity did not come until the late 1700's before that Afghanistan was under the persian and the Mughals and probably any other islamic empire before that. Even when the Afghans/pashtuns were united it was not long before it fell apart. Geographically NWFP is a part of the indian subcontinent- the Durand Line is a natural border between the 2 countries - afghanistan and Pakistan. Its not an artitificial border but a natural one - the mountains are like a natural wall.
I dont know where I have blamed homosexuality on pashtuns LOL. I think your reading some one elses posts and confusing tjem with mine. Swat was a dictatorship where the ruler valued the cutting of trees to his own people. Swat had so many plus points it had good infrastructure but the poor were still very poor there. Of course I know the people praying are pashtuns - their dress, language is all one needs to know. Do you find it a problem that pashtuns on buses travelling here and there have the urge to peform their obligatory 5 times a day prayers? Its a well known fact pashtuns are quite strict on praying but then again like other humans they do both good and bad. Pashtuns attacked India and that says it all. They had no right to attack. they should have stayed put.
The history you talk about - no one tried to esbtalish a theocratic state. The theocraticstate has resurrected in the 20t century because it is seen as many Muslims as an alternative to West domination of their world. The West have united and run the world along with partners such as India and Israel. the muslim culture and religion will disappear and vanish if the west remain dominant in the world. You can already witness westernisation in most Muslim countries.
the blame game is old and as Pashtun nationalists blame ONLY pakistan for the mess they are a big part of, why shoould nt people blame Pashtuns for it? The real problem is that all people do is blame one another and dont do anything to stop the problem. pashtuns, the ISI, the Russians, the Afghans, Indians, Iranians, Americans, al-qaeda all share the blame equally. Deoband has spread because people find it a closer interpretation of islam than what was present before. Lets face it most of rural india and pakistan have very strange beliefs. Im not sure what you want to say but you seem to have a problem with islam and pashtuns? kori is right - many Punjabis are not into praying as such. On the buses you will see very few ge upto pray. When they go to the toilets on stops they prefer to use the stand-up urinals than the squat toilets. In Lahore they say soemthing like "Ramzan jan de, Pathan jan de" or something - some one correct me please!
Some important points.
Nationalists are living in utopia if they think once they get their petty little states (Sindhu-Deshu, Pashtunestan etc.) everything will be fine and dandy.
India will fight Pashtunestan over the Indus, water, all sorts...
LOTD is living in a fantasy world if he thinks Islam is no big deal to Pashtuns just because it's no big deal to him. 95% of Pashtuns are hardcore Muslims.
The best option is for Pakistan to remain, but as a confederation of Islamic states (Punjab/Pashtunkhwaetc.) each with their own autonomy, respecting each others rights, they'll certainly be more sensitive to each others rights than India.
PS. Please don't use the term "Indian Subcontinent", just "South-Asian Subcontient" is more appropriate.
Kori, why do have to slander LOTD? If he is not from Afghanistan. then what will you do? It is fairly well known that anger and separatism has increased in Pakhtunkhwa due to the Pakistani involvement in this so called 'War on Terror' where the Pakistani military is essentially fighting US's battles.
As for hating on Afghanistan, do you think that Pakistan is all that better? Indirectly occupied by the US, economically broke, and weak leadership (Karzai and Zardari might as well be twins). Stop insulting Afghans.
Afghans are the ones wet dreaming the most about the destruction of Pakistan. They're our worst enemy.
USA might be paranoid about Izlemic extremism that's why they don't like Pak.
India's just plain greedy for more land.
Afghans hate us, nothing else, that's their only motive for the destruction of Pak: hatred. They can't even control the bit of land they have so it's not so much land, it can all go to India, they just hate Pakistan. Afghan dogs are born, grow up in Pak, they get educated here, they're fed by Pakistan and then they bite the hand that fed them... I've seen anti-Pakistan Afghan boys studying in Islamabad.
It's aasteen mein saanp paalna, they should be kicked out.
You're right that anti-Pak sentiments have increased only because of Pak's decsision to ally with the USA in those areas, decades of ANP/Afghan propoganda couldn't do what the Pak army's decision did.
I think Americans are targetting civillians purposely to increase anti-Pak senitments in the region, it knows Pak is too weak to leave the USA now.
Divide and rule...
If LOTD thinks USA or India will let a people as Islamic as Pashtuns flourish and prosper with their Pashtunestan he's got another thing coming...
I think that the billboard was put up by anti-state elements. I support ANP as far as their agenda for redevelopment of Pakhtunkhwa, asking for a equitable share in the federation is concerned.
I like your views about a Pashtun-dominated Afghanistan and a Pashtunkhwa with autonomy within Pakistan.
I think Pashto, Punjabi, Sindhi, Balochi, Kashmiri should also be given national language status in Pakistan, Urdu should have it's own province Urduistan (Karachi).
6 national languages instead of 1.
LOTD doesn't like South-Asia, so he wont have to worry about Urdu/Hindvi imperialism on Pashtun regions if Urdu was limited to Urduistan (presentday Karachi), Punjabi to Punjab and Pashto to Pashtunkhwa.
English is good international language for inter-provincial communication or Arabic the lingua franca of all Muslims.
Re: Greater Pashtunistan
[quote]
When they go to the toilets on stops they prefer to use the stand-up urinals than the squat toilets. In Lahore they say soemthing like "Ramzan jan de, Pathan jan de" or something - some one correct me please!
[/quote]
True. They don't pray much or fast in Punjab.
Once in Ramadan I asked a healthy Punjabi aunty at the train station "Aunty why aren't you fasting?" she said "Son we give alms to our saint instead, we'll just grab onto hios cloak and he'll tag us along into Heaven".
They also don't pray, except maybe a Friday, they laugh at people from the NW with their "prayer-marks" on our feet/foreheads from the pressure of sitting and protrating.
We once saw some people praying a Funeral in southern Punjab so we joined in, I was shocked when the corpse got up and walked away and another took his place, when I enquired from a boy next to me he said "we don't have any Mullah's here, a foreign one is visiting so we thought we'll all get our funerals prayed in advance because chances are when we die there'll still be nobody here versed in Islamic liturgy".
Another time I saw a graveyard with green and red flags, a Punjabi man said the green flags mark graves whose occupants have had their funeral rites performed, the red ones however haven't and we'll dig them up when a Mullah comes by from somewhere so he can pray the funeral for them.
Re: Greater Pashtunistan
People from NWFP are obsessed with Islam.
Even young boys will pray, even if it's during a cricket/volleyball match.
Most have beards.
They get all hyped up about religious politics.
NWFP is full of guys wearing those red Ghazi caps, I didn't know what they were when I bought one (because a sexy guy from my village wore it) but later got told it's what that Ghazi guy from the Red Mosque Madrassah in ISB use to wear, that's why people wear it to show support for his cause, hardly anyone in Punjab wears it but it's very very common in NWFP.
I wear one but not for political reasons.
Pakistani opponents of the Pashtunistan issue challenge the central tenet of the Afghan argument that Afghanistan is the natural home for Pashtuns. Pakistan’s rulers like Field Marshal Ayub Khan, who himself was a Pashtun believed there was a difference between the Pakhtunistan advocated by Ghaffar Khan and the Pukhtunistan of Afghanistan.
Critics challenge the argument that Pashtuns are discriminated favourably in Pakistan’s power matrix. They cite the facts that there are more than double the number of Pashtun refugees in Pakistan than in Afghanistan although this is due to the series of proxy wars in Afghanistan between the the Soviet Forces and Pakistan . In addition, critics argue Pashtuns in Pakistan, are well represented in Pakistan’s power structure, particularly the Army. They have served at all levels of the Federal government, in sports and other fields. They are also well represented as far as in the business community.
According to some estimates there are 30 million Pashtuns in Pakistan while 12.5 million in Afghanistan. Over 60% of all Pashtuns live in Pakistan, this includes Pakistani Pashtuns and about three to four million Pashtun refugees from Afghanistan. Furthermore, Pashtuns have one of the highest birth rates in Pakistan, and their representation in the country is expected to increase considerably over the next few decades further increasing their representation in the country. Pashtuns in Pakistan have also migrated heavily to other provinces within Pakistan with the city of Karachi in the province of Sindh now having the largest urban population of Pashtuns in the world (estimated at four million). There are also sizeable pashtun populations in Lahore (one to two million) and in Islamabad/Rawalpindi. Pashtuns virtually dominate the transport industry in Pakistan and are actively involved in business and trade throughout the country but particularly in areas outside of the traditional Pukhtunkwa areas. Critics also point to the low social status of Pashtuns in Afghanistan and their low rate of representation and literacy. They claim that Pashtuns in Afghanistan are treated poorly and are discriminated against by the more urban, educated Tajik and Persian speaking populations. In Afghanistan, it if often impossible for a pashtun to increase his social standing without emerging himself into the more influential Dari culture originating from the north.
Stop kidding yourself honey.
Do you even know the ground realities in Pakistan or only fanatasize romantic notions about how Pashtun society is sat in your room/lab in the West?
I live in this country, I've travelled all over Punjab and Pashtunkhwa.
Pashtuns are as Islamic as they get, far more extreme than Punjabis or even Arabs or anyone else.
In Punjab women don't even always wear a chunni/dupatta (scarf) whilst in Pashtunkhwa you hardly ever see a woman without a burqa' or those big shawls that cover them from head-to-toe.
In Punjab 95% guys are cleanshaved, in Pashtunkhwa 95% guys have Mullah style beards.
In Punjab guys don't mind being naked around other (swimming/bathing in the river, in uni dorm rooms), in Pashtunkhwa everyone is very prudish even about taking their top of in public or using a urinal.
Back in England I didn't know any Punjabi guys being sent to Pakistan to study at a Madrassah whilst almost all Pashtun families I know sent atleast one of their sons to Madrassah's in Pak.
In England every Pashtun boy I knew grew a beard, except for this one cute guy but he wasn't even from NWFP, he was from Attock.
Only 1 Punjabi guy from Jhelum grew a beards and that was because of Pashtun friends' influence.
It's all because Punjabis are not very Islamicised and Pashtuns are.
It's the simple truth, your family and little clique are not an accurate representation of all Pashtuns.
India will be far more hostile towards Pashtunistan than it is to Pakistan, if it's not Kashmir it will be the River Indus or something else.
At least Punjabi, Urdu/Hindi and Sindhi people on both sides of the border have ethnic similarities whilst Pashtuns have always been enemies and invaders to the Hindus, read up on Pashtun kings and what they did to the Hindus, Hindus keep grudges like a camel.
Re: Greater Pashtunistan
This is a futile discussion fed by some people who are rightfully upset at present situation and negative connotations of pustuns. Pushtuns may be conservative, but many are now fighting tooth and nail against taliban and dying alongside pakistani army to rid their lands of the takfiris.
^
See everyone is playing pretend pretend to support their own agendas. Whether it's the Pakis or seperatist nationalists, most Pashtuns don't care for either.
Pashtuns are the taliban, very few are pro-Pakistan anymore. The Only Pashtuns fighting alongside Pak forces are those in the army.
They dislike Pakistan forces as much as secular nationalists.
Most Pashtuns support their Mullah's and Mujahids, they feel very passionately about an excuse for holy war. They proudly idolise their martyrs, they distribute fighting and training vides even in the West.
USA and Pakistan had their own agendas against the Ruskies for introducing Islamic extremism in these regions and now it's become a part of these peoples blood, it's spread like wild fire.
Education to bring about open mindedness and job opportunies in those regions might help the situation but good luck with the openmindedness because Pashtuns are naturally very closed minded and proud of it...
Kori do speak respectfully of other cultures -im sure you dont want Pakistanis to look racist online considering how much we co,plain about racism in the UK. Its out of order addressing them as Afghan dogs.
Urduistasn is a silly name for a province or a region. Karachi/Kolachi is the natural and historic name for the region, why change it? Its not as if everyone in Karachi speaks Urdu as a mother tongue. The problem of the 6 national languages os that Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashtu and Balochi pose more of a threat to less spoken languages such as potohari, hindko, chitrali/kho, seraiki, brahui, kutchi than Urdu does. English is not spoken by many people in pakistan and arabic would have been ideal if introducedin 1947. Urdu is more than perfect as the link language.
Im not sure if most guys from NWFP have beards at all - I have not counted them personally but yes theres more men with beards there thats for sure. Why is a beard a problem? Its sawab for a Muslim to keep a beard. Is nt a beard a Sunnat of our holy prophet peace be upon him? A beard is not a sign of extremism - its an act of Sawab. Its compulsory for an adult muslim to stop whatever he is doing, with some conditions of course, and pray Namaz. You are supposed to take a break from a football match for it and whatever trivial things you do - you are supposed to fit prayers into your life and revolve your life around them. islam is nt just a friday religion its a 24 hours way of life.
Kori - in some of the tribal areas the Burqa has become a post 1979 fashion ie linked with the rise in religious conservatism which came via the funding into madrassahs.
Kori your very wrong when you say Pashtuns are against Pakistan - most of those are stillpro-Pakistan.
BTW - why is Kori banned?
Its funny actually fingers are being pointed at the militants, the ANP, the ISI for these posters .....its a case of who dunnit?
Pashtuns are the taliban, very few are pro-Pakistan anymore. They dislike Pakistan forces as much as secular nationalists.
Most Pashtuns support their Mullah's and Mujahids, they feel very passionately about an excuse for holy war. They proudly idolise their martyrs, they distribute fighting and training vides even in the West. Education to bring about open mindedness and job opportunies in those regions might help the situation but good luck with the openmindedness because Pashtuns are naturally very closed minded and proud of it...
I have not bothered with this debate because it seemed pointless, but i have to say your sweeping generalisations, implied racism and blatant falsehoods have started to grate..Your comment about Pashtuns being supporters of Mullahs is rubbish, the 02 elections were an exception, while all other elections have shown the taliban lack public support. In fact the largest amount of votes ever received by the religious parties was 15% and that was nationally..predominantly in Karachi, punjab, NWFP..sind
The attacks on the US and spillover into Pakistan have far more to do with Pashtun nationalism than religion. There is no correlation between militancy and a single ethnicity in the world and Pakistan in particular. The Lal Masjid affair was led by a seraik, the JI was originally an exclusively Karachi based party..the JUI was formed in India not in the pashtun belt.
As far as attacks, most recent bombings have been in Punjab and by Punjabis, broadcasters like aalim online and his recent fatwa against Ahmadis were not done by Pashtuns.
Your comments about Pashtun society being conservative areaccurate, but your comments about pashtun society in Britain skip the bit that no Pashtun has been linked to extremist attacks or glorifying attacks.
To put it simply your comments are factually incorrect and say far more about your own biases than about pashtuns.
In his book, Syed Fida Yunas has brought out some relevant facts, which lead to the conclusion that Bacha Khan wanted an autonomous province of Pakhtoonistan within Pakistan, whereas Afghanistan adhered to its irredentist claims with ambiguous shifts — from ‘annexation of the land once ruled by Ahmad Shah Abdali (1747-1773) to the right of self-determination to the peoples of what it called occupied Pakhtoonistan.’ The most ardent advocate of Pakhtoonistan was Sardar Daud, who himself, at one time, admitted that no leader of the National Awami Party (successor of Khudai Khidmatgars and predecessor of the Awami National Party), including Khan Abdul Wali Khan, was in favour of secession. As quoted by his deputy foreign minister, Abdul Samad Ghaus, “Daud mentioned that NAP leaders had been accused of secessionist designs. ‘While nobody can know what is in a man’s heart’, he said, ‘to us none of the ones with whom we have spoken, including Wali Khan, said that they wished to separate from Pakistan.’” (The Fall of Afghanistan — An Insider’s Account)
a sensible solution for afghanistans problems. must read
Afghanistan Between Violence and Development: Partition
Thats pretty messed up Asif. Would you like it if I posted a paper on the partition of Pakistan? Besides, that map is wayy off base.
Leave Afghanistan alone as separate nation.
it wil better 4 pashtuns of afghanistan to give up non-pashtuns, they have become headache for them.
now greater pashtunistan??
we pashtuns first unite within pakistan i.e merger of FATA, NWFP, mianwali nd attock and 13 districts of balochistan. after that it wil b a option for us to join with pakhtuns aross durand or not.
which can b done by 2 ways. either pakhtuns of afghanistan join pakistan or pak pashtuns join them.
it wil better 4 pashtuns of afghanistan to give up non-pashtuns, they have become headache for them.
now greater pashtunistan?? we pashtuns first unite within pakistan i.e merger of FATA, NWFP, mianwali nd attock and 13 districts of balochistan. after that it wil b a option for us to join with pakhtuns aross durand or not. which can b done by 2 ways. either pakhtuns of afghanistan join pakistan or pak pashtuns join them.
Hold up you claim to be Pakhtun but do you even know the history of Afghanistan? The founding of the state under Ahmad Shah baba? Listen, I might second generation but there is no way I am going to advocate splitting up Afghanistan or Pakistan. wrora, we need a soft border between the two nations. Afghan=Pakhtuns. This Khorasan business is a joke. Why do Tajiks, Uzbeks not call themselves Afghans and say that they are Tajiks? Afghanistan must remain Pakhtun dominated.
We have more problems than you can count ranging from militancy to the social fabric of Pakhtun society being torn apart by outsiders and haters..yet you still want to talk about secession? We need to fix our internal issues.
Besides Pakhtuns are fairly well integrated into Pakistan and don't want to spoil that balance. NWFP must be renamed Pakhtunkhwa and once we have sorted out the problems, we need a soft border with Afghanistan. No to greater Pakhtunistan.