Re: Greater Pashtunistan
There will never be any sort of greater Pakhtun country. If the Pakhtun people actually wanted a distinct nation Pakistan could not stop them even if it tried.
The fact that Pakhtuns have stayed with Pakistan is testament to their loyalty. Pakhtuns vote for federalist and not separatist parties and that is testament to their continued belief in the integrity of Pakistan.
Re: Greater Pashtunistan
True.
Mostly Pakistan is ARMY. and pahtoons constitute %50 of the army. So..
True. Mostly Pakistan is ARMY. and pahtoons constitute %50 of the army. So..
That's my point. Pakistan's finest infantry are Pakhtuns. The mutiny of the East Pakistan Rifles in 1971 is nothing compared to what would happen if Pakhtuns decided their interests no longer lay with Pakistan.
But instead they continue to fight hard for Pakistan. Which is why my mind is at ease. An independent Pakhtunistan is nothing but a pipe dream in the minds of a handful of die-hard seperatists who both lack support today and have virtually no chance of getting any support under any circumstances whatsoever.
Re: Greater Pashtunistan
This is more like a wet dream than reality. Pashtuns are very much settled in every sphere of life all over the Pakistan.
Incidentally, Ayub Khan was also a Pukhtoon.
Pukhtoons have been a major part of Pakistan, and will remain so. Pukhtoons are just as patriotic as anyone else in Pakistan.
Correction! Ayub Khan was not a Pashtun. He was a Hazara.
And Hazaras do not like Pashtun (to say the least).
there are ppl there!!! in case you don't know it. Like women and babies too. Every year trip from our school use to go to waziristna.(Good old days) They didn't find any thing but "PEOPLE".
So NOW pakistan have 2 ways to fix the things, not only we can bomb ppl we can also starve them to death?? Talk about US being cruel to muslims!!!
Take the babies and women out of the area. They are being held hostage by the Arabs and their slaves.
Ayub Khan ethnically was a Pashtun not a Hazara. He was originally from Hazara and not the ethnic Hazara tribe.
People find Ayub Khan confusing probably because his home language is Hindko although he was pashtun by origin.
Not to forget relations between Hazara and pashtuns within Quetta are pretty good.
Ayub Khan ethnically was a Pashtun not a Hazara. He was originally from Hazara and not the ethnic Hazara tribe.
....
Thanks for correction. Yes Ayub was born in Hazarajat to a Pashtun family.
Heres one of the billboards - it appears tobe a busy area and not a tribal belt. If the Americans are involved do you thinkthey are actually encouraging the ANP, the ANP have barely criticised any American attack on the tribal areas.
Such a big board could not be put there without Gov support.
http://paknationalists.googlegroups.com/web/GreaterPashtunistanBillboard-OnlineNewsAgency-Nov08.bmp
http://www.ahmedquraishi.com/latest_col.php?id=76
Separatist Billboards
The most disturbing part is that the PPP government, which came to power in Islamabad through an arrangement exclusively brokered by Washington, is unwilling to confront the Americans. Now we have 40-feet wide billboards that have mysteriously sprung up on the main roads of NWFP showing the map of a new country – Pashtunistan – with meticulously defined borders that incorporate most of northwestern Pakistan. The Pakistani Pashtun, the bravest and the most loyal subjects of the Pakistani state, are being pushed toward separatism with full speed. This ‘billboard campaign’ has to be the boldest statement of rebellion and separatism ever made in the history of nation-states anywhere in the world. Yet it’s business as usual in Islamabad. How long will the Pakistani state continue on this path of self destruction?
By AHMED QURAISHI
Wednesday, 12 November 2008.
WWW.AHMEDQURAISHI.COM
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan—There is little question that an American-occupied Afghanistan has emerged as the biggest security threat to Pakistan. But you wouldn’t know it watching the Pakistani ruling elite, busy in creating the world’s most bloated government – more than sixty ministers in the federal cabinet, some without even office space. This elite is also busy in smuggling out millions of dollars in illegal wealth out of the country.
The most disturbing part is that the PPP government, which came to power in Islamabad through an arrangement exclusively brokered by Washington, is unwilling to confront the Americans. The CIA is attacking Pakistani territory with impunity, where it already maintains an elaborate intelligence presence on the ground. Afghanistan, in effect an American base, is the main source of inspiration, funding and weapons to terrorists spreading chaos in both NWFP and Balochistan. Our spooks have stunning information about how our so-called allies are protecting terrorists whose only job is to attack Pakistan. Yet our government refuses to allow the parliament to have a meaningful debate and its unanimous resolution has been ignored by the two governments in Islamabad and Washington.
And now we have 40-feet wide billboards that have mysteriously sprung up on the main roads of NWFP showing the map of a new country – Pashtunistan – with meticulously defined borders that incorporate most of northwestern Pakistan. The Pakistani Pashtun, the bravest and the most loyal subjects of the Pakistani state, are being pushed toward separatism with full speed. This ‘billboard campaign’ has to be the boldest statement of rebellion and separatism ever made in the history of nation-states anywhere in the world. Yet it’s business as usual in Islamabad.
This is not about blaming others for our problems. Some parts of the American political/security establishment are involved in an ambitious plan to secure America’s position in and around Afghanistan. This apparently entails empowering India and removing a little ‘nuisance’ called Pakistan. American officials dismiss Pakistan’s legitimate strategic interests as ‘obsessions’. In 2007, the outlines of an American media campaign began to emerge, harping on the theme of the looming disintegration of Pakistan. A series of fantastical op-ed pieces started appearing in U.S. newspapers and magazines about the Iraq-like break up of Pakistan. This continued up until after the assassination of Benazir Bhutto four days before New Year ’s Eve 2008. Part of this campaign was a map published by the U.S Armed Forces Journal that showed Pakistan reduced in size after the break up of its two provinces of Balochistan and NWFP. Coincidentally these are the same areas where insurgencies sprang up from nowhere after the U.S. occupation of Afghanistan.
Pakistani security analysts have been warning since 2007 that Pakistan is committing a blunder by allowing Pakistani politicians to conduct their separate foreign policies with foreign countries, especially with United States whose massive agenda of redrawing the map of the region is a direct threat to Pakistani interests. America and Britain in particular have a history of orchestrating coups and covertly funding chaos and insurgencies and changing governments in our part of the world. It is foolish to expect Washington and London to treat a country like Pakistan on equal footing. Yet it is stunning how our political and military leaderships have allowed Washington, its diplomats and its spymasters to directly access political parties, invite them on secret, all-expenses-paid trips to Washington and have direct say in Pakistani affairs. The American intervention, starting late 2006 and early 2007, effectively managed to bring a regime change in Islamabad, thanks partially to the blunders of the previous regime. There is no free lunch and the Americans have specific expectations from the new rulers in Pakistan: The permission for increased American military operations inside Pakistan, meeting the American desire for clipping Pakistan’s intelligence capabilities, and changing the military’s orientation from a standing army into some kind of a police force focused on fighting insurgencies.
The deliberate destabilization of Pakistan through American military and political interference will result in turning large parts of the country against the federal government and increasingly draw the military into a civil war that will bleed us for decades to come in the presence of covert support from Afghan soil. The result would be a weakened Pakistani state unable to sustain control over its territory and over its vast arsenal of nuclear and strategic assets. The Americans are also keen that Pakistan is entangled again in the IMF cobweb, which basically means one more American control over Pakistan. Interestingly, the only thing that appears to be stopping the current government from cowing to American diktat is domestic political reaction. Apart from the IMF option, we are yet to see any real moves to deal with the economic crisis.
How long will the Pakistani state continue on this path of self destruction? It is also time for Pakistani commentators and civil society activists to realize that their idealism has resulted in encouraging the people to vote for the same tried, tested and failed politicians who cannot deliver. Our civil society activists need to stop viewing every call to reform our democracy and political system with an eye of suspicion. What would it take for our liberals and commentators to understand that even good ideas, like local governments, don’t work under our paralyzed political system? It is time to reorient the Pakistani state and government structure. Special interest groups cannot be allowed to have permanent monopoly over our politics. Political parties need to be forcibly democratized to allow the ascent of Pakistan’s middle class in politics. Ethnic politics, the new Trojan horse of anyone who wants to meddle in our affairs, have to be ended through legislation and by creating more provinces on administrative lines and by strengthening Pakistani nationalism. The question is: Who will do this? The current crop of politicians can’t. The military is not trained to do this, at least not alone. I am afraid we are soon approaching a situation where something will have to be thought of outside the box.
It’s either this or more separatist billboards in the future.
TJ. watch out. This is just another effort to divide and rule the Pashtuns.
Pashtun Mullahs are on the take from the government. With bill boards like these, ANP will get the blame and possibly get kicked out of the government. Then the picture will be like MQM-Altaf vs. MQM haqiqi. Both parties will get money and arms and there will be even more bloodshed in the Frontier and especially FATA.
It is time that Pashtun leadership (both religious and secular) pull itself back from the brink. Otherwise this will be a bloody war where religious-Pashtoons will kill secular-Pashtoons, and the military will kill both of them.
In either case, FATA will become semi-political and a lot less tribal just like MQM in Karachi.
Erm a 40 foot billboard showing a greater Pakhtunistan ie a unity of pashtu speaking areas is not an effort to divide the Pakhtuns but UNITE them. Culprits:-
The militants - they probably fall in 2 camps pro-Pakistan and anti-Pakistan. Anti-Pakistan miliants may not be the Taliban as such but more nationalistic Pashtuns who want out of Pakistan. Their backers are obviously India, Afghanistan and directly and indirectly the USA. The militants have sophisticated weapons that only outsiders ie Israel, America, India, ISAF must have supplied. There is only so muchyou can steal from American/ISAF troops.
The ISI/Generals of Pakistan who apparently Asfandyar Wali Khan wanted to expose to the USA as aiding the Taliban. Some say he had evidence of it and was going to show the USA - it might explain why there are attacks on the ANP leadership. The Generals may have erected these billboards to give the ANP a bad name and cause chaos and confusion and the dismissal of the government. Hoti has denied their involvement in it.
Fazul rehman's people could have done it for point scoring people - trying to make ANP look anti-Pakistan.
The ANP themselves - not anti-pakistan as it used to be but the test comes when you have a problem. When a man falls do u try and pick him up or do you desert him?
The ANP have had to change their policies so that they become seen as more pro-Pakistan to appeal to the majority of Pashtuns who are proud Pakistanis. But does a leopard really change it spots?
I personally believe the upper leadership in the ANP has not changed its heart but just the words that come out. The ANP have had quite close links with Karzai's Gov, they had some quite meetings with America over the few years I believe - right or wrong? They rarely condemn American attacks on FATA and Afghanistan back in 2001 - or possibly their condemnation was not publicised. Obama will reach out to them.
The reality is that whoever put them there is creating an idea in the minds of a people. The internet is already awash with Pashtunistan ideas and most internet using Pashtuns especially those raised in foreign countries of educated backgrounds appear to support it more. The cyber world excludes most Pashtuns but now somehow someone has managed to convey this message to them directly. The billboards appeared in anumber of cities/areas.
Whoever is doing it is planting the potential destruction of pakistan.
Erm a 40 foot billboard showing a greater Pakhtunistan ie a unity of pashtu speaking areas is not an effort to divide the Pakhtuns but UNITE them. ....
I agree that most of the Pashtuns are peaceful and pro-Pakistan. And we are praying that ultimately they would prevail.
In this thread, we are discussing minority extremists that mainly come from two opposing philosophies: Socialist-nationalists, and Islamists.
All the conspiracy theories aside, if Pashtun nationalists (read socialists) become stronger, Pashtun Mullahs will again be bought by USA and Pakistan. This will be just like the good ole cold war days. In fact with most of the Arab backers being sent to Jahunnum via predators, Pashtun Mullahs may be looking for new sponsors from the old guard. While Pashtun Mullahs will get plenty of money from Pak government, socialists like ANP will be left high and dry. No matter how hard you try, ANP can never win hearts in Washington like non-socialists can do.
ANP used to get funds from the now-dead Communists. May be Russians are still giving them few rubles, but with petro-economies collapsing, ANP will not have a lot of money coming in.
Sad isn't it?
If Pashtun thinkers do not provide good leadership, the current situation will become the same as MQM vs. MQM Haqiqi. In fact it already has. Few non-Pashtuns are being killed in the conflict. Most of the dead in and around FATA are Pashtuns from pro-government and anti-government side. This was the same situation in the gang wars of Karachi.
It breaks ones heart to see that whatever people say about Pashtun's good character as individuals, doesn't translate to a collective good behavior. As a group they are just as Bekau maal like petty tribals from Africa. They will sell their brother for a price, just like one African tribe sold the other as slaves to the goras. Pashtuns have destroyed their own infrastructure, their own schools, and police stations. This is the same behavior exhibited by the primitive tribals in Africa.
Once the Pashtuns have destroyed their own schools, what will they expect from their future generations? Those poor kids will have to go back to the old days where Pashtuns supplied most of the hard labor in Punjab and Karachi.
Isn't it sad? That future generations of Pashtuns would have caught up to Punjab and Karachi in the race for white collar jobs. Now that schools are gone, they will be forced to remain in blue color job arena for a long long to come.
So calm down and let this Pashtun unity ideas sleep under the rug. The more you talk about Pashtun unity the more it would hurt Pashtuns in the long run. Just remember this, only Islamists and neo-Hindus can tout the destruction of Pakistan, one in the name of pan-Islamism and the other as pan-Hinduism.
I think you have absolute zero knowledge of what the Americans are doing,directly or indirectly there.
Is nt it ironic that the American missiles tend to hit pro-pakistani tribal leaders and people yet they FAIL to hit their so called targets?
For some reason your mindset is stuck in the 1970's communism vs capitalism. Communisim has collapsed and now Islamic Political ideology is the new enemy.
The USA are not going to support the Mullahs when they know that the ANP leadership is more than willing to toe their line and they will do it without a double game. The USA are only supporting fanatics right now to achieve one object - ie destabilise pakistan. Concepts such as greater balochistan, greater pakhtunistan were just dreams before but from out of nowhere a group of people are trying to create the dream. Quite a few show-shaw list or whatever you used to call it pashtuns support an American presence within the Pashtun areas. The ANP are the exact type of party the West want to see flourish in the muslim areas.
The Americans and Allies seem to want to do something to pakistan. They may not want to split it but the nukes are definitely on the way out.
The problems of Pashtuns are just a reflection of the problems within Pakistan. Theres no loyalty anywhere. People just wantto score a few points for their own benefits.
Ideally I think most people would want to let it sleep under the rug but the reality is that a huge billboard has just been placed in NWFP - showing it as part of another country.
Somebody is responsible for it. Whats your opinion burqaposhx - who would do such a bold step?
I agree that most of the Pashtuns are peaceful and pro-Pakistan. And we are praying that ultimately they would prevail.
In this thread, we are discussing minority extremists that mainly come from two opposing philosophies: Socialist-nationalists, and Islamists.
All the conspiracy theories aside, if Pashtun nationalists (read socialists) become stronger, Pashtun Mullahs will again be bought by USA and Pakistan. This will be just like the good ole cold war days. In fact with most of the Arab backers being sent to Jahunnum via predators, Pashtun Mullahs may be looking for new sponsors from the old guard. While Pashtun Mullahs will get plenty of money from Pak government, socialists like ANP will be left high and dry. No matter how hard you try, ANP can never win hearts in Washington like non-socialists can do.
ANP used to get funds from the now-dead Communists. May be Russians are still giving them few rubles, but with petro-economies collapsing, ANP will not have a lot of money coming in.
Sad isn't it?
If Pashtun thinkers do not provide good leadership, the current situation will become the same as MQM vs. MQM Haqiqi. In fact it already has. Few non-Pashtuns are being killed in the conflict. Most of the dead in and around FATA are Pashtuns from pro-government and anti-government side. This was the same situation in the gang wars of Karachi.
It breaks ones heart to see that whatever people say about Pashtun's good character as individuals, doesn't translate to a collective good behavior. As a group they are just as Bekau maal like petty tribals from Africa. They will sell their brother for a price, just like one African tribe sold the other as slaves to the goras. Pashtuns have destroyed their own infrastructure, their own schools, and police stations. This is the same behavior exhibited by the primitive tribals in Africa.
Once the Pashtuns have destroyed their own schools, what will they expect from their future generations? Those poor kids will have to go back to the old days where Pashtuns supplied most of the hard labor in Punjab and Karachi.
Isn't it sad? That future generations of Pashtuns would have caught up to Punjab and Karachi in the race for white collar jobs. Now that schools are gone, they will be forced to remain in blue color job arena for a long long to come.
So calm down and let this Pashtun unity ideas sleep under the rug. The more you talk about Pashtun unity the more it would hurt Pashtuns in the long run. Just remember this, only Islamists and neo-Hindus can tout the destruction of Pakistan, one in the name of pan-Islamism and the other as pan-Hinduism.
...............Is nt it ironic that the American missiles tend to hit pro-pakistani tribal leaders and people yet they FAIL to hit their so called targets? .....
So if you are correct, then the guy named abduallah al Saudi was pro-Pakistan. FYI he is the most recent passenger on a one-way drone flight straight to Jahunnum.
Why would educated Paks like you would continue spreading rumors, and conspiracy theories. Why?
They hold MUCH MORE credibility than anything that tried and tested liars such as the American Gov and Pakistani Gov say.
Whats the conspiracy? Which part dont you hate like to admit? Does it seem that unlikely that the USA could directly or undirectly be responsible for whats going on? If its not them then it is the ISI/Pakistan Army. And if it is not either of those two then it will be the Indians no doubt about it. If it is the Indians then why is nt America/NATO/ISAF not limiting their role? If pakistan holds some responsibility for militants crossing over and causing trouble in Afghanistan then surely America/ISAF/NATO who are occupying Afghanistan holds some responsibility fot those crossing over into pakistan ESPECIALLY since the Americans have the sort of technology that could probablydetect a mouse moving there. The CIA has often predicted the collapse of pakistan - this is one of the most crucial periods for Pakistan or maybe we just read too much into it.
Tell me one thing - who on earth could erect a huge billboard in the settled areas of NWFP and WHY?
So if you are correct, then the guy named abduallah al Saudi was pro-Pakistan. FYI he is the most recent passenger on a one-way drone flight straight to Jahunnum.
Why would educated Paks like you would continue spreading rumors, and conspiracy theories. Why?
..................Whats the conspiracy? ...
TJ bro!
You said, drones only target pro-Pakistan tribals. I guess you didn't read the news lately. One of the Alqaida Arabs died in Bannu. Do you think Abdullah Al Sudi was pro-Pakistan?
If you want to remain in this anti-West conspiracy world, then be my guess.
Funny that you want to blame Americans, ISI, and Indians, but heavens forbid if someone says that people responsible for this mess are the criminals from FATA. If you say they get money from Americans or ISI then it is the mother of all conspiracy theories. Why in the world Pak army or US army would pay someone to have their OWN soldiers killed every day? I don't think you really understand the nature of modern day commanders in Pakistan, US, or UK armies.
If you say that money for Jihadis comes from neo-Hindus and Islamists, that makes sense. As only the Pan-Islamism and Pan-Hinduism want to utterly destroy Pakistani army and its pro-West government.
p.s And lay it off on the billboard issue. Every 2-bit politician has their bill boards erected and they can be much bigger than 40 feet. So it is not difficult for some common thug to put few bill boards. Who gave them money? Anyone who wants Pashtuns to fight with each other and kill one another. Once the area goes up in flames, it becomes easier for the terrorists to hide there. hint hint. AlQaida. Off course Jihadi and Islamist terror supporters in Pakistan will never say that.
Re: Greater Pashtunistan
Hi guys good discussion.
Let me make a few corrections...
Pashtuns numbers in Pakistan Army is no more than 10%. Rest of the army is from Punjab. Second, ANP and other nationalist parties are the only parties in Pakistan with a clear vision and truly committed to moderation and secularism. Pakistan Army and Pakistani state togethor with other parties, including even PPP, have proved themselves to be unreliable with a history of the worst kind of nuclear proliferation, AL-Qaueda links (remeber how Air Chief Marshal Mashaf Ali Mir ....Gen Mehmoud Ahmad...Gen Hamid Gul...), promoting jehad, spreading destablization in the region, huring US-Western interests in the region, double dealing, etc.
ANP is acceptable to the West because it has been having a clean history and a real commitment to secular liberal values since it was established a century back ...and it has immensely paid for its liberal-secular ideals unlike the parties and forces from the east of Indus which have prostituted democracy etc. Unlike Punjab-centric forces, iIt doesn't harbour nuclear ambition or pursue Islamist expansionism ...If created, Pashtunistan and Baluchistan would be small states concerned with the well-being of their own citizens instead of spreading instablility the world over like Pakistani state under the control of Pakiistan Army has. or seeking Islamic nuclear bomb...
Mr. burqaposhx brother, i am sorry to point it to you but you are living in a fantasy world not aware or willing to accept that gone are the days of the Cold War...Pakistan Army is now a liability rather than being an asset to the great powers...Pakistan has this image of a dangerous and irrational state ...that is why Micheal Headden the CIA chief few days back said that all threats to the world peace trace back to Pakistan...So come out of your utopian world...
What the Western world is now doing is to manage the "soft collapse" of Pakistan, so eventually you have a Pakistan with weak center and strong provinces (like Iraq) and without nuclear weapons and with much weakened army...or if Pakistan refuses to be transformed then there will be no Pakistan but instead Pashtunistan, the city of Karachi as the free port, Sindhu Desh, Baluchistan.......... and the Punjab which will ultimately reluctantly join India because deprived of water, gas, electricty, port, etc. it will have no other option but join India...
In the 19th Century, the Western powers called Ottoman Empire as the sick man of Europe ...ultimately, they laid to rest the once mightiest Muslim Empire...
Re: Greater Pashtunistan
Robert D. Kaplan, a famous and influential writer who predicted the disintegration of Yougoslavia (sorry for spelling) wrote in 2001 at the time of American attack on Afghanistan that some states in South and Central Asia are destined to collapse...Also NIC (National Intelligence Council) report in 2005 which predicted that Pakistan is headed for a Yougoslavia like fate...
anyhow, it is time for sensible thinking...a now social contract between nationalities and provinces...
Sadly Pashtuns west of the Abaseen are really messed up.
They'll be worst off without the rest of Pakistan and the rest of Pakistan will be better off without them.
They are the most backward people on earth, they have a fcuked up understanding of Islam (Yeah we blame Pak gov's jehad thing for that but why are Pashtuns so stupid to fall prey to all that and why are they the most fanatical in all of Pak? Whilst most Punjabis can't even pray Namaz and would rather visit some tomb in Hindu fashion)...
...Fcuked up ideas about religion combined with their really backward culture, on top of that there's so much poverty they have to sell their daughters to rich Punjabis, Muhajirs and Arabs to survive, or they come over to the east of the Indus as thieves to steal and rob.
The situation in the Pashtun regions of Afghanistan is worse.
It's hardly the recipie for a succesful nation.
It's easy to blame Pakistan goverment's, Punjabis etc. and indeed they are partly to blame for the situation in Pashtun regions but not entirely like I said why did Pashtuns play into their hands?
Some educated Pashtuns have this wishful notion of a modern Pashtun nation upon the lines of Ataturk's Turkey but they have a long way to go before that, ANP and its members are not a true representation of the views/psychology of most Pashtuns.
I would love it if Pashtun regions of Afghanistan, Pakistan (including those east of Abaseen) were made into a free Pashtun nation that was modern and had a proper undertsanding of Islam free from fanaticism/mullahism/extremism.
I'm pretty much disillusioned with Pakistan myself but no point in entertaining romantic illusuions about a Pashtunistan that are just not practical..
I'd want Pashtunistan to be like basically a Turkey with a different language (western culture, pashto language, muslim religion) but it aint going to happen.
I'd kill to see cute Pashtun guys wear jeans and t-shirt, lol, Pashtuns are so hott but naswar/pattu/turban/excess-hair etc. is such a turn off.
But I only see ideal modernised Pashtuns in ISB like areas and some in Peshawar but they're all with links to Pak Armed Forces.
Maybe right now the best option for Pashtuns is to just try and get their rigts in Pakistan, name change of their province, introducing Pashto as a medium of education/media, end to Urdu imperialism etc.
Pakistan should have been a federation of Muslim states each with autonomy and their own culture instead of this forced one ethnic thing with Urdu language imported from India forced on everyone.
Re: Greater Pashtunistan
Aren't we all living in a utopian world? Including yourself.
Currently Pashtuns are one of the most religiously fanatical, lawless, illiterate, poor and narrow-minded people in the world.
As much as these words might hurt or anger someone they are the simple truth, no point denying it, you know it yourself, let's quit pretending.
A few rich, educated, enlightened and modern Pashtuns are not a true representation of Pashtun society.
You or me fanatisizing about a Pashtunistan upon the lines of Ataturks Turkey is just as much utopia.
Pashtun society is basically fcuked, what sort of a future is this nation going to have when they can't even get on with their nextdoor neighbour and look for a reason to fight like gull-terr dogs all the time.