Greater Pashtunistan

Greater Pakhtunistan could mean anything. It could mean just the renaming of NWFP or it could mean total independence. Total independence is not what most Pakhtuns aspire to in NWFP as most of them are integrated economically with Punjab and Sindh. There are Pashtunistan slogans written in so many areas of Quetta but it does not actually mean anything.

I doubt most Pakhtuns from NWFP want to join Afghanistan - in fact 99% of them dont. Thats why you see parties such as the ANP changing their political stance over the decades. In fact most Afghans are in Pakistan for now. Its the only stability they know.

The Baloch dont certainly want to join Afghanistan. They already have enough problems being a par tof Iran and Pakistan. Its a lie to say the situation in Balochistan has deteriorated so much - Mekran is generally very peaceful and the people just want to eat 2 meals a day. Not even all the Baloch support independence - its just MISINFORMATION.

If they want a Greater Pashtunistan I dont think D I Khan would be the right place for the start of it as the city has a large Seraiki population.

India and Afghanistan would both regret the day if they managed to remove Pakistan from the world map. They would both be fighting each other and claiming bits of each others territories.

I do think there is SOME international support for greater Pashtunistan. People blame the dictator Musharaf for all of this. Sorry but these issues go way back before he was born.

Right on! Pakhtunistan is just a slogan being abused by some political dimwits.

Pakistanis must understand the root cause of this.

  1. Pakhtunistan issue was popular among "socialists" and communist sympthizers mostly based in Afghanistan.

  2. Both India and Afghanistan are no longer "socialists" as they are under the tight reign of Uncle Sam.

  3. Even at the hight of socialist power in Afghanistan, Pakhtunistan was supposed to be only from Pakistanis territory. It did not include the Afghan territories.

People interested in history should go read the earstwhile socialist Abdul Rahman Pazwak's utterings. He was the Foreign Minsiter of afghanistan and later president of general assembly. His habit was to take pot shots at Pakistan.

But this hypcrite Pazwak never wanted any of the Afghan area to be part of Pakhtunistan. He dreamt of disintegration of Pakistan.

The problem with socialists and Afghans is that they in their limited tribal brains, never realized that Pakistan is the new regional power and they ought to respect the fact.

Why Afghans have to respect Pakistan? Simple. Pakistan feeds them and clothes them. If you look at Afghanistan, its population is now compareable to a couple of medium sized Pakistani cities. But the Afghan resources are even meager. One typical small town in pakistan produces more food than the whole Afghanistan combined.

This is just a bit of reality for the Afghanis and their Grater Pakhtunistan lovers. The only thing this type of myopic stance has hurt Afghanistan. Look at the way they have become the new Switzerland.

I have a feeling another 1971 style civilwar coming soon unless we take some drastic steps now. We can't afford to lose NWFP & Balochistan. It is time to divide NWFP and Balochistan into smaller provinces so they can be managed easily.

FYI. 1971 was civil strife was not the first and certainly not the last one. From the very birth, both Pakistan and India have seen civil strife.

However 1971 was unique in one way, that Pakistan couldn't hold on to the 1000's mile away teritory. This was not political or military defeat, it was defeat of logistics. This type of defeat is possible only when countries try to fight in a place that is far off from their logistical base.

Back in 1971 Pakistan needed logistic support like the one used by UK to recapture Falklands.

Just like India has fought of civil strife in Punjab, Kashmir, and so many other places, Pakistan too has defeated civil strife in Karachi, Sindh, and Balochistan.

And this time around, the situation is not too different. Gangs of criminals and Islamists are trying to displace law enforcement agencies, and law enforcement agencies are fighting back.

It is going to be long and bloody, but ultimately Pakistani law enforcement agencies will succeed just like they succeeded in karachi.

Re: Greater Pashtunistan

See how Mulla Meter is shouting like a mad on Ansar Abbasi

Capital Talk 12th November 2008 - Friends Korner

There is no purpose to it. It will create more strife.

I could just imagine how long it will survive, if there ever was a "Paktunistan"

IMO, this whole paktunistan is a distractor. The real problems are the joblessness and economic well being of the innocent people in those frontier areas. They want to live ordinary lives and not be surrounded by sounds of helicopter gunships and bombs all the time. And If there ever came stability then they can think about making those areas smaller and more governable and not necessarily "seperate". Firstly, the government(s), local and federal should understand the common concerns and what the people there are requiring.

US does not gain anything from breaking up Pakistan. It's more the internal forces in the northern areas that want to break off from Pakistan. Why would teh US want a country where they have a failing war to amass more land mass? It is shameful though how the northern Pakhtun population has no love for Pakistan and only cares about their tribal issues. What can be excepted from outsiders when Pakistanis are ready to jump ship. No one can keep a country together that does not want to be together....case in point the Indian subcontinent....

Re: Greater Pashtunistan

I am a pashtoon and I am not really in favor of pashtoonistan (greater or watever).

But i fail to understand a few things. If BREAKING UP is such a bad thing, why did we break up from INDIA? INDIA WAS OUR IDENTITY for the past sooo many centuries.

I only believe people should live as they feel comfortable. Pakistan has only been there for the last sixty years. Nations and their demographies have been changing for the past sooo many centuries.

I am not ANTI PAKISTANI. I like to think i am a humanist. People should be allowed to live and associate themselves with whoever they want.

I am sure the majority of pashtoons do not want greater pashtoonistan at the moment. But if they would ever want a greater pashtoonistan, there would be a reason for it just like there was a reason for us to seperate from india.

Re: Greater Pashtunistan

The vast majority of Pukhtoons who live in Pakistan (2/3 of world total Pukhtoon population) are proud citizens of Pakistan and would never think of leaving the country which they love so much, in spite of all that the spineless leaders of Pakistan have put them through. Afghanistan is, frankly, too poor, destitute, and chaotic to absorb any territory. It would be for the best interest of Afghanis to join in federation with Pakistan, and I believe it will happen, maybe not in the next few decades, but sooner or later. Pakistan already supplies Afghanistan with the vast majoirty of food, medicine, fabric, and other goods. pakistan is housing 5 million Afghani refugees and more thanhalf of Afghanis have lived in pakistan at some point in their life. When events have become unbaearable in Afghanistan, many people establish residence in pakistan. Pakistan also provides education, secular and religious, for millions of Afghani refugees. Pakistan and Afghanistan have their destinies intertwined.

Re: Greater Pashtunistan

Let me say something.

(1) US in particular and West in general would like to transform Pakistan if not completely break it by de-nuclearizing and de-militarizing it....it would be a country with weak center and stong provinces just like what happened in Iraq, Afghanistan. There are reasons for it. Most of the world considers Pakistan to be an irrational, unstable, and dangerous state that has become the hub of terrorism....a country that is a threat to regional and world peace. This perception may be wrong or right but there is this perception about Pakistan everywhere and the major powers that have interest in regional and world stability have no options but to stablize Pakistan.

(2) There are many Pashtuns especially the educated ones that think that they should have their own state....and this sentiment is on the rise. There may be not an outright struggle for separation from Pakistan but if the situation continued like this, then down the road within 7-10 years, this may turn into a final push for a separate state. I think if a push came for it, Pakistan would not be able to stop it especially that now there is no Cold War and there are many enemies of Pakistan.

(3) It is a wrong perception that Baluchistan and Pukhtunistan would suffere due to separation. They would rather become rich by having control of their resources and by exploiting their strategic locations and proximity to Central Asia, Middle East, China, Indian Ocean, and South Asia. All those gas+oil pipelines would pass through Pashtun and Baluch areas. Gawadar would become an access point to oil and gas rich Central Asia and major routes to Central Asia pass through Pashtun areas. Punjab would be the worst sufferer in all this.

(4) No regional power not even China (due to its fear of the rise of Islamist separatist sentiments in Sinkiang) can tolerate Pakistan to expand territorially (by including the Pashtun part of Afghanistan as some people have said here)...Baedon in his debate with Palin has mentioned this fact whence he had said that Pakistan is more dangerous than Iran and that the nuclear missiles of Pakistan can hit Balkans and Western/US bases in Persian Gulf from Herat. Baedon had said the madrassas in FATA would be converted into modern schools. Obama has said he would focuss on Karachi and Kandahar...something very meaningful.

Anyhow, it seems Pakistan and the associated Indian Muslim Culture tried to exapnd westward and integrate Afghanistan especially the Pashtun part during 1980s, 1990s but that was the peak time for such ambitions ...and now it seems there would be a reversal in this regard in the coming decade.
So one people should not rule this possibility out. Throughout history Pashtun and Baluch areas have sort of been buffer beween Indian, Persian, Central Asian worlds and they may revert to what has been their historical role; you cannot change the dynamics of geography and nature for long.

Shaddan, Indian has never been our identity...

We lived there for centuries. and we have been living in pakistan for sixty years. Why was it ok to seperate then and why is it not ok to seperate now? Not that i am in favor of seperation. I just want it to make sense to me.

The pushtuns in pakistan dont just live in NWFP, they can be found in every province of pakistan. In karachi alone there are said to be 2 million pathans,what would happen to them if NWFP separates from pakistan and joins afghanistan.

Re: Greater Pashtunistan

Nice post dinosaur, but the fact of the matter is that most of the Pukhtoons and Balochis are patriots of Pakistan and the idea of separation, though around, is limited. Sure there are groups, especially those functioning under pay of Karzai, who wish for Pukhtoons to separate from pakistan and join Afghanistan, but this will never happen. Pakistan's people, Puktoon, Balochu, Punjabi, Kashmiri, Sindis, and others would never let this happen. Not to mention that pakistani people are not an unintelligent people, they are resourceful and so far no leader has cultivated the patriotism and strength of Pakistanis to its full potential, but ti is very plausible that what we are seeing right now is a short era of instability, which I believe will be followed by a rapid revival of the state of Pakistan, but this willonly happen once the people exert themselves.

I enjoyed your post of the analysis of foreign countries seeing Pakistan as a threat and you are 100% right. Pakistan is a rleigious society, so foreignors wish to limit Pakistan's potential.

Inshallah, Allah swt will frustrate their ambitions against Pakistan.

Burqaposhx Pakhtunistan was popular amongst those “socialists” and communist sympathisers but now in the 21st century its being directed or indirectly aided by America and its allies in Afghanistan. Im not sure what the powers that be want from Pakistan exactly but a Muslim state with limited or little or even no clout would probably be the best bet. Political Islam and Unity amongst Muslims is seen as a threat and the seeds of nationalism and ethnic/regional exploitation have been planted in us creating rifts and potential regional conflicts.

Ethnic, linguistic, sectarian and religious conflict dog South Asia west to the Middle East. Pakistan itself is not severely troubled by it but the ill feeling can easily be exploited. Pashtuns have come a long way since the 1970s. They are integrated economically and politically in Pakistan. They have some influence in the power structure unlike their brethren in Afghanistan who hold less clout even though over 50% of the country.

There are 2 reasons why Pakhtun nationalism occurs:-
1. NWFP not given its fair due
2. Pakhtuns considering themselves a distinct ethnic group
The 2 major Pakhtun nationalist parties ANP and PKMAP both play national roles in issues of national interest.

Nyfella of course the whole Pakhtunistan issue is a distraction. Politicians in Pakistan are from rich families and they don’t have issues of jobs, wages, survival, food, clean water, health so they focus on issues which would be considered a luxury.

Shadan your right - you cant stop the will of a people if it changes and governments and empires have changed so much over the hundreds of years.

Ammarman 7 – I don’t agree its in the interests of Afghanistan to join Pakistan as they are politically very different to Pakistanis.

LOTD your right – Pakistan is seen as a threat to American hegemony. I disagree with you when you say many educated Pashtuns want their own state and the sentiment is rising. Over the last few decades pashtuns wanting their own state have almost disappeared and in fact more and more Pashtuns have settled in other parts of Pakistan for jobs.

A Greater Pashtunistan would mean no Hazara and no Terbela Dam. There is a belief amongst pashtun nationalists that they will become independent and get the royalty of the dam. You forget the dam is in between both the Pashtun and Hindko belts and Hazara wont be joining a Greater Pashtunistan.
The section west of the Indus will have very high population growth which wont be levelled off by moving into Punjab and Sindh, and on top of that there could be up to 10 million extra Pashtuns returning back to it. The Peshawar valley side is economically tied with Northern Punjab. The Quetta side is more linked with Sindh.and Southern Punjab. Pashtun traders would lose a lot if Sindh, Balochistan and pashtunistan become 3 separate countries. Buses, bus conductors, road side cafes, road side shops are just some of the jobs that pashtuns do en route to Lahore and Karachi.

Balochistan will benefit in the sense that its people or should I say its Sardars will have more control over its own resources and as its so heavily exploited with little given in return, it will see a lot more in return.
One more thing Indian has never been an identity but it’s a landmass that our very own river the Indus takes its name from. Pashtu is an Indo-European language is it not? British India and the Mughul empires had some section of present day NWFP under its rule. The Pashtuns of the Peshawar Valley have played a role in India. Afghans/Pashtuns have always pushed eastwards to the Indo-Gangetic plains.

There are as many Muslims in India as in Pakistan (both having aprrox 140 millions muslims)...so what was the rationale for Pakistan then?...there are numerous other such examples throughout the world...there are chinese throughout the Far East and Russians troughout the Central Asia and East Europe ...similarly, the Khozistan province of Iran is Arab...but these have not invalidated the justification for Ruusian, Chinese, etc. states...

Furthermore, diasporas and minorities have seldom influenced the political choices of their co-ethnists on the mainland...According to 1998 census, there are only 1.2 million Pashtuns in Karachi. I think MQM wallas will be wise enough to integrate/assimilate them...Otherwise, they(MQM wallas) will loose international goodwill...

The rationale for separation from India at that time was, that Muslims and Hindus cannot live in a single state and Muslims need a country to pass their lives according to their Islamic way of life, which of course is a ridiculous thinking...There are as many Muslims in India as in Pakistan today...so the problem couldn't be solved completely...And many more Muslims have immigrated to non-Muslim countries to live under the infidel systems...

The rationale is almost the same again i.e. it will be un-Islamic to separate...But have Bangalis who separated become lesser Muslims? In fact religion has nothing to do with statehood or nationhood...States exist for very practical purposes i.e. for fullfiling the diverse interests and needs of their citizens (sometimes they also exist for the geoplotics of great powers) and when they fail to accomplish that, their justification to citizrns for existance ceases...Ultimately, it is the choice of people that counts...

So many states and empires are now in the dustbin of history...who could imagine in 1985 that USSR will disintegrate into a dizzling array of smaller states just within 5 years!

Your ideas may be based on sincerity but alas they are not backed by the existance of any concrete steps for harmonus and mutually benificial relations between various ethnicities right from the first day of Pakistan's inception...that is why Bangalis walked out...and that why Baluch, Pashtun, etc. disillusionment with Pakistan.

You cannot consolidate such relations just by emotional slogans...it needs effective and practical measures...

When Pashtun areas both in Afghanistan and Pakistan are combined, they make 0.5 millions (5 lackh) square kilometers. Pashtuns are only 42 millions and most of this area is uninhabited...much of this land can be developed into agricultural land...In fact there are many crops, vegetables, and fruits in which Pashtun areas have competative advantage over others...Moreover, many rivers (e.g. Kabul, Helmand, Kunar, Swat, Panjkora, apart from many other small rivers) have their headwaters in Pashtun areas or flow through much of their course in these areas... and Pashtun areas are neither getting their share of water nor can utilize it...

As for Tarbella, the powerhouse is located in Sawabi...and much of the rivr bank at Tarbella is inhabited by Jaduns, Yousafzais, Mashwanis, (Sarikote, Ghazi, etc.)...

But Pashtun areas can themselves be converted into virtual power-houses ...the entire length of river Kabul right from the mountains of Mohamand Agency to Kabul provides dozens of sites for big and small dams ...similarly, in Kunar, Swat, Dir, and on river Helmand in Kandahar, Gahzni numorous power-generating facilities can be constructed...

Further, in Karak and southern districs, there are huge deposits of natural gas discovered...Besides, Tajakistan is keen to sell its electricity at a very cheap price to the neighbours...Moreover, Pashtuns can directly purcahse gas, oil from Middle East and Central Asia etc. ...that is why oil is three times cheaper in Afghanistan than in Pakistan...reason is Pakistan buys oil from international market and sells it three times the international price to people just to feed the army and meet its defense expenditure...Pashtuns wouldn't have the white elephant called Army(which is what makes Greater Baluchistan scenarios attarctive to big powers).

Anyhow, I am not saying Pashtuns should seperate but nationalistic sentiments ar really on the rise in Pashtuns especially in young people and ultimately, when they see Pakistan cannot or is not willing to bring normalcy and development to their areas but is rather using these areas to play geopolitics and divour billions of dollars, they may opt to walk out...especially when global and regional powers also have interest in it...

But here one is astounded by the irrationality of some who think as if Pakistan is some kind of cosmic-sperstate with all the supernatural powers at its disposal and all the divine forces backing it to overcome the enormous internal odds and extrenal threats it is facing....Guys come on guys...it is time for reason and rational thinking...do away with the policies of the past...disengage from Kashmir, Afghanistan, Al-Qaueda-Taleban...dismantle the nuclear bombs...and leave US and West without a reason to be in the region...

bring radical structural changes in the state garunteeing autonomy and democracy and focus on human development and economy...but Pakistan seems to have gone so far ahead on the path of "structural" deterioration that it has lost the flexibility to be transformed...