Re: Good Non-Muslim People
okay, could you explain me why and how it is bad to kill animals for food?
It is quite obvious to me and I will certainly try to explain.
Causing pain to any living creature is a bad thing. Killing certainly does that.
Secondly, human beings are animals too, only a bit more advanced.
If animals can be killed for fun or for rituals, then you are causing pain to another creature, not for your survival but for other purposes.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Animals do have intelligence, feelings as well as family relations (not uniformly but many do).
And yet...animals eat other animals. Shall we start lecturing them too on how "bad" their behavior is?
For humans, there are generally three kinds of animals...wild, pets, and food.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Peace again PaKpatriot1
I can only say that you are prescribing to the adulterated form of Sufi understanding. You say you don't judge, but then you negate yourself with your 'however', again bringing the example of Al-Qaeda that your Sufi understanding has brought you on. That they exist or not or that there are worse examples than 'the image created about them' in this world is of no concern to your 'understanding'.
I said nothing explicit regarding your assertion that people need to embody the traits most closest to god. It seems that you are confused between the word 'closest to god' and bring it into an essence conversation. That is bordering deviant speak. I hope you could clarify. I did try to show that attempting to embody the traits of God is not possible, nor is it allowed. To merely say it is not enough. It cannot be done in a wholesome manner. Allah (SWT) is Most Just, we are to be just in our actions, but it is wrong to assume it is because it is like being 'god'. For God dons Pride, but that is not allowed for us. The theory you present has obvious exceptions.
Then you present the argument that such people are in a 'hellish existence' again with your fallback to the alleged 'Sufi' understanding. This understanding negates the Akhira. It presupposes that this world and this life is the manifest one. You have not accounted for the fact that this world is a deceptive one and that people may be in turmoil or anguish for their own good, not because it defines a 'hellish existence' for them, but it purifies them for the Akhira.
God has Attributes that you present about Him, but He also has Attributes that you are either hiding or dismissing and that is where you are mistaken about your idea that we need to be like God.
Perhaps I do judge unintentionally, I am human after all... But my take on it is as a neutral party... Im only assesing from my understanding of cerrtain Sufi principles. I comapre it to someone who looks at evidence in a case and makes an assesment on available evidence as to the likely outcome of a trial.. Ofcoruse the ultimate judgment, is not up to the individual, but assesing the most likely outcome of a trial based on evidence is very different from passing judgement I think.
I dont profess to be anything more then someone who has student of such schools of thought, and if you take certain principles into consideration, there are certain conclusions that can be drawn.
Now obviously no one is god, and no one can be god, and isnt that the same misunderstanding thats confused so many when it comes to Sufis?
No one for instance would confuse the art for the artist...
But God does have certain characteristcs that he has embued in his creation and we are all are able to express those characterists, however limited, in a way that mimics those of God himself.
Is there any doubt that humans are compassionate and forgiving at times, which are gody characteristcs?
Its like an emulating an artist, you could never attain the same skill of the original, but you try.
Now if someone embodies certain characteristics that are divine, such as compassion and forgiveness, then that person is closer to god, atleast figurativly speaking. Then someone who contradicts those attributes would obviously be on the other side of the spectrum.
Perhaps the souls of Al Qaeda and Taliban are in turmoil, and perhaps they will be forgiven, but its obvious from the reading of the Koran that many in this world are desitined for hell... Perhaps it a form of purification before they can enter paradise, but obviously, souls in turmoil are still subject to being judged and Punished.
I view this world as a testing ground, and we have within us the knowledge of what is good and evil.. People make their own decisions...
But as according to Sufi belief, paradise is that in which you are in proximity of God, and emulating god greatest attributes, is atleast an effort in that direction...
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Well at least you are true to your philosophy of 'being close to God by embodying His traits' you are effectively exhibiting the trait of Judge over such people.
However, if it is Compassion and Forgiveness as you say are the Traits of God that bear any real importance then how can you then in the same breath estimate the destination of people without considering the very Traits that you support?
The fact is that you are not God and all Judgment is for Him and those who estimate on His behalf are doing themselves a grave injustice.
So let me get this straight... it's ok to judge someone you deem as non-believer, but if someone praises Muhammad, prays toward the Arabian desert and says assalamu'alaikum, you should withhold judgment.
If I were Muslim I would be aghast at what they do in the name of Islam. And if I were comfortable enough condemning non-Muslims to hell, I would feel even more compelled to condemn those killing innocents in the name of Allah.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
I have a question to ask the religious experts here.
I have a hindu friend. He is the kindest and most nicest person I have ever met. Not a single person has ever said a bad thing about him nor has he sad a bad thing about anyone. He is obedient to his parents. Never did anything sinful.
But he is a Hindu.
Will he go to Hell when he dies because he is non-muslim, even though he is so kind hearted?
Please explain
How about following common sense and just being nice to him. How does it matter and why are we curious to know if he will go to Hell or Heaven.
why give Mullah's so much control on our life?
I have so many nice Hindus as my friends. I think those who do good, good things happen to them. I think they should go to heaven for their good Karma.
I will be very upset to see Mother Teresa go to hell just because she was not mulsim and Mullah Pappu go to heaven just because he prayed and lived for himself.
By the way, as per Christians, Eidhi will go to hell as he doesnt believe in God , Son of God and the Holy Ghost.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
May be there are separate heavens - the HindU heavan, the Muslim heaven, the christian heaven etc.
In fact if you really thinlk about it, that is the ONLY way any place can be heaven.
Because it is obvious to me from this thread, particularly from what the great muslim scholars here have decreed, as long as a person who believes in something other than what they say Allah said people should believe in, then it is not heaven. The moment you admin a jew who doesn't give a hoot to islam but spent his life uplifting people, heaven according to these scholars, these wonderful interpreters of Allah's will and intent, heaven is corrupted.
No wonder the OBL version of heaven opted for the kaboom to 72 virgin definition of heaven. And I thought that's a joke that cannot be surpassed. .now you guys actually managed to surpass that!
Gimme a break for godssake!
Ps: also pls stop sending me PM asking if I am muslim, what sect, what this that etc. I will ignore as in the past in most cases (exception being psyah because he seems to be such a nice guy)
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
May be there are separate heavens - the HindU heavan, the Muslim heaven, the christian heaven etc.
In fact if you really thinlk about it, that is the ONLY way any place can be heaven.
Because it is obvious to me from this thread, particularly from what the great muslim scholars here have decreed, as long as a person who believes in something other than what they say Allah said people should believe in, then it is not heaven. The moment you admin a jew who doesn't give a hoot to islam but spent his life uplifting people, heaven according to these scholars, these wonderful interpreters of Allah's will and intent, heaven is corrupted.
No wonder the OBL version of heaven opted for the kaboom to 72 virgin definition of heaven. And I thought that's a joke that cannot be surpassed. .now you guys actually managed to surpass that!
Gimme a break for godssake!
Ps: also pls stop sending me PM asking if I am muslim, what sect, what this that etc. I will ignore as in the past in most cases (exception being psyah because he seems to be such a nice guy)
^^
:D
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Arrogance is assuming you know the reason why someone else does good deeds. Arrogance is assuming your belief system is the only one that will get you into heaven. Arrogance is doing good deeds just so you can get a reward in the hereafter. Arrogance is a God that is more concerned about getting praise for himself than he is with man helping man for the reason that it is the right thing to do. Arrogance is having an air of superiority about your beliefs when you have *no more reason *than the next person to believe yours is the only way.
Peace
Seminole says: Arrogance is assuming you know the reason why someone else does good deeds.
But No ... Who is the one assuming? Qur'an tells ... we recall. Obedience is in humility's seeds.
Seminole says: Arrogance is assuming your belief system is the only one that will get you into heaven.
But No ... Who is the one assuming? Qur'an says ... pay for Shirk; a punishment for the heathen.
Seminole says: Arrogance is doing good deeds just so you can get a reward in the hereafter.
But No ... If arrogance is seeking Reward from The Lord then humility must be wordly pleasure.
Seminole says: Arrogance is a God that is more concerned about getting praise for himself
than he is with man helping man for the reason that it is the right thing to do.
But Yes ... God is Greatest, Most High, arrogance is pride in man, Pride is for Lord Himself.
But No ... God makes man helping man the right for each man, we acknowledge it too.
Seminole says: Arrogance is having an air of superiority about your beliefs when you have no more reason than the next person to believe yours is the only way.
But of course ... if ones beliefs are self-created then arrogance is there, but our beliefs are prescribed and not self-created; how can it be when we have no say?
Mindblowing..Mindboggling reply dude!!! 100 out of 100. Reps to u ... so says chintu_bhopali
How mind boggling is it to read, surely all praise is due for He, ego fuel is not for me
Then ssingh says: I agree! to Seminole too
And indopak says: Seminole, very well said! Thank you
Arrogance is not submitting to Truth, says not me, guess Who?
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
^ may be seminole used the term arrogance where the term dumb fits better.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
I have a question to ask the religious experts here.
I have a hindu friend. He is the kindest and most nicest person I have ever met. Not a single person has ever said a bad thing about him nor has he sad a bad thing about anyone. He is obedient to his parents. Never did anything sinful.
But he is a Hindu.
Will he go to Hell when he dies because he is non-muslim, even though he is so kind hearted?
Please explain
According to his religion he goes to Heaven, but who cares when you are no more,
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Not at all...why would he ascribe partners to Allah? You may think he is and that would be your fault, not his.
When I pray to Lord Vishnu I am not praying to anybody but Sri Vishnu.
If you think Sri Vishnu and Allah are distinct Gods, then him praying to Sri Vishnu does not make the two partners. It is like you like two types of sweets but by consuming one, there is no + or - to the other.
If you think that Sri Vishnu and Allah are simply different names for the same universal God, then again it is unity and there cannot be a partnership of one!
Finally if you believe Sri Vishnu is not a god and only Allah is (which is what I suspect many muslims believe. though they are wrong) then again where is the partnership created?
In conclusion, under no scenario can a good person committing good deeds can not reap the good rewards of his life.
In fact by Sanathana Dharma, the effects of good thoughts and deeds are even more powerful than God! By some interpretations they ARE God! Such is the beauty of Dharma!
:biggthumb
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Arrogance is not submitting to Truth, says not me, guess Who?
Who? YOUR interpretation of God, which doesn't hold any superior position than my interpretation of God, that's who. The arrogance comes when we hold our interpretations and opinions as THE truth while dismissing others as false and ignorant.
You are so proud that your beliefs are "prescribed" as if that makes yours legitimate all others false. But prescribed by whom? Those who decided how Islam was to be practiced in which the assumed words of God are only a piece of the prescription? The cultural interpretation which includes following the words of what someone said that someone else reported what someone else said or did?
Surely you realize that those who don’t believe the Quran to be the words of God or the historical interpretation of those words (which includes following the cultural and personal habits of the man who supposedly delivered them) don’t hold the same “truths”. These more than 5 billion people have varying “truths”. I’d venture to say at least a couple billion of them have really put thought into their belief system. Each one of them is as valid as yours. I don’t know why that is such a difficult concept to grasp for fundamentalists of different religions. I don’t care what religion people are, the fundamentalists of the religion typically display total arrogance (and ignorance) on this issue.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Who? YOUR interpretation of God, which doesn't hold any superior position than my interpretation of God, that's who. The arrogance comes when we hold our interpretations and opinions as THE truth while dismissing others as false and ignorant.
You are so proud that your beliefs are "prescribed" as if that makes yours legitimate all others false. But prescribed by whom? Those who decided how Islam was to be practiced in which the assumed words of God are only a piece of the prescription? The cultural interpretation which includes following the words of what someone said that someone else reported what someone else said or did?
Surely you realize that those who don’t believe the Quran to be the words of God or the historical interpretation of those words (which includes following the cultural and personal habits of the man who supposedly delivered them) don’t hold the same “truths”. These more than 5 billion people have varying “truths”. I’d venture to say at least a couple billion of them have really put thought into their belief system. Each one of them is as valid as yours. I don’t know why that is such a difficult concept to grasp for fundamentalists of different religions. I don’t care what religion people are, the fundamentalists of the religion typically display total arrogance (and ignorance) on this issue.
Peace Seminole
1 + 1 = 2 and does not equal 3 that is not arrogance it is explicit. First off you have an interpretation of God, I merely believe what I am told about God. So who is the arrogant one here? Secondly, it is quite probable to hold your values as correct and the values of others as incorrect without being arrogant about it. All one needs to say and attribute the guidance is to Allah (SWT). i.e. that I believe I am correct not by anything due to me, but rather because Allah (SWT) has chosen it that way. I praise Allah (SWT) in my guidance not myself, so I am not being arrogant here, and May Allah (SWT) protect me from arrogance. Lastly, if it possible that I am right and you are right then you should agree with me always, because I must be right. But if I negate the idea that there are more right answers, in the case of Shirk for example, then we cannot both be right, either Shirk is allowed or it is not allowed, both cannot be true at the same time.
I am not proud within myself so hopefully I am saved. I may exhibit pride in my Creator or my Creator's Word, but that does mean I attribute or clothe that pride over myself. Rather a waste would it be over me, I deserve no such thing ... May I be humbled.
I follow the prophetic interpretation which includes following the words of what someone who was sent by Allah (SWT) said that someone else who has the knowledge to report what someone else said or did and provide the various interpretations therein ... there is no arrogance here except respect for those people I also use the faculties to decide and evaluate and my evaluation is mostly exhaustive and I try to arrive at concise answers in order to distinguish what it better from worse what is right from wrong. There is no arrogance in this but humility.
You often say this odd word 'truths' as if truth is subjective and not absolute. May I ask you ... is God not Absolute?
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Peace Seminole
1 + 1 = 2 and does not equal 3 that is not arrogance it is explicit. First off you have an interpretation of God, I merely believe what I am told about God. So who is the arrogant one here?
Better question would be who has put more thought into it and who is parroting what others have told you to believe. You can't compare math to religion. Math is objective and as much as you wish or believe your faith is as well - it isn't. It is subjective. The Quran is not fact unless you have faith that it is.
[quote]
I follow the prophetic interpretation which includes following the words of what someone who was sent by Allah (SWT) said that someone else who has the knowledge to report what someone else said or did and provide the various interpretations therein ... there is no arrogance here except respect for those people I also use the faculties to decide and evaluate and my evaluation is mostly exhaustive and I try to arrive at concise answers in order to distinguish what it better from worse what is right from wrong. There is no arrogance in this but humility.
[/quote]
I agree, there is no arrogance in believing you are following the correct path.
[quote]
You often say this odd word 'truths' as if truth is subjective and not absolute. May I ask you ... is God not Absolute?
[/quote]
Yes, God is absolute, complete and perfect - that is not subjective. Peoples' beliefs as to what version of God to follow is subjective.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Better question would be who has put more thought into it and who is parroting what others have told you to believe. You can't compare math to religion. Math is objective and as much as you wish or believe your faith is as well - it isn't. It is subjective. The Quran is not fact unless you have faith that it is.
I agree, there is no arrogance in believing you are following the correct path.
Yes, God is absolute, complete and perfect - that is not subjective. Peoples' beliefs as to what version of God to follow is subjective.
Peace Seminole
I think I have put more thought into this and I too am reiterating what has been said to me. Mathematics is just as much as a mystery as religion to the uninitiated. The question is philosophical. And mathematics is derived from philosophy and much religious discourse too. Hence they are connected. My initial reason for using math is to justify the premise that a single answer in the way of truth is basis for human reason. To claim truth is subjective is to deny truth, because two 'truths' could inherently be contradictory.
You agree with me that God is Absolute, but what if someones version of the belief in God makes Him the opposite of Absolute? Does that mean God is Absolute and not so at the same time? Or does it mean one of the points of view are wrong?
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Pure objectivity and religion simply do not mix. At some level religion requires suspension of reason.
Reasonable people follow a religion to a reasonable measure (because it is a good way to gain control of ones own mind and in some respects, body).
Unreasonable people then stop thinking and start using religion as cause and excuse.
And then there is the worst kind - the kind that tries to force their belief on others either thru passive means or active (sometimes violent) means.
God, heaven etc are simply extension of the concept of religion.
The more reasonable are able to distinguish between religion and God with things like heaven being mere results.
The dumb ones simply need and clutch on to what somebody told them to believe, and over time convince themselves that it is the 'right path'. This is why you find so many people sounding pious nice and even good, suddenly clam up their brains and go "whatever Allah said prophet did and quran said is right" - whether it makes sense or not.
The fact is otherwise. If you use your brain and then follow a religion and a God to reasonable objectives, you are a human that is also a being.
If you blindly believe in a quran or prophet or god, you're just a human (a collection of cell matter) and not a being.
The choice is: are you a human being or a dumb cellIgroup.
What do you think Allah will be proud of having created?
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Peace Tariq Akhtar
I have tried to use considerable reason in developing the given thought model. To explain the model is based on what I have learned from Islam. It appears that Islam has geometric accuracy with regards to it’s mapping of consciousness and how it integrates with concepts such as the Fitra, Nufs and Tawfiq.
I will not write for too long. Just to make a really important point, in reference to the above emboldened quote of yours.
For you a reasonable person is person who plays hard and fast with religion. For me that is not religiously sound. Rather a person needs to find something that they are consistent with and adhere to those principles with their life. Rather for me a reasonable person is a religious person who finds that there is reason in religion which paves the path towards illumined faith. Blind faith for that matter is faith in matters that contradict reason. It is reasonable to realise that we cannot possibly understand everything so why is it that when religion states something we reject it based on our own limitations? It is reasonable to be humble with our knowledge and faculties because we should realise that we are limited in our knowledge. If we believe that our understanding and faculties are perfect or faultless and if something defies our reasoning then this will lead to the conclusion that faith and reason are exclusive.
It is reasonable to categorise requirements and be obedient before our Creator. The moment we entertain the idea that we don’t have to do something that has been made an obligation on us, then we undermined the very thing that we are said to believe in.
Look at the diagram … There are two axes Innocence and Sophistication vs Hidden and Apparent
The apparent elements of the consciousness are measurable and are objective, the hidden ones can be deduced but are not directly observable i.e. require faith. Please study the diagram and respond with comments.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Some jungle sects within other religions including Hinduism practice animal sacrifice.
regardless of which religion/sect requires this, it is a in my opinion a bad practice.
Animals do have intelligence, feelings as well as family relations (not uniformly but many do). Killing them for food is bad enough but to do that for a ritual is unconscionable.
I am really surprised that someone in this day and age will defend that practice!
Dr Zakir Naik said :
Let us analyze the various reasons, why a person chooses a food habit. It can be Religious, it can be Geographical location, it can be a personal choice, smell, taste, colour’. Due to humane or ethical consideration, due to anatomical and physiological consideration, due to behavioral consideration, it can be due to ecological and economical consideration, it can be due to nutritional value or due to health and scientific reasons… health and medical reasons. Let us first analyze the Religious reasons - Mr. Trivedi said that… ‘Religion should not interfere with the human being… where it is concerned, what we should, and what we should not eat - That we should leave it up to the doctor’. I agree with him that most of the Religions, that is in the case. The Religious authority, the main foundation… that is Almighty God, if He is not a doctor, the God that you worship is not a doctor, then you should not follow him - He says… ‘Leave it to the doctor’. But in Islam, we believe… Allah (SWT), Almighty God, is our Creator - and the Creator of the human beings has far Superior knowledge, than all the doctors put together, in all the years. And you can find the statement, as Mr. Rashmibhai Zaveri said… ‘All from doctors’ - he is quoting from these books, which I think is available for sale outside… all these books. I will touch on some of these points, all out of which many are fictitious… fictitious, do not exist at all - Some are irrelevant, some are untested and some are truth… which are half-baked. I would like to make one point crystal clear, that while I prove undoubtedly, that Non-Veg. food should be permitted for the human beings, I do not have the slightest intention to hurt the feelings of any Vegetarian. And while I prove logically and scientifically that Non-Veg. food is permitted, and if someone feels hurt, his sentiments are hurt… I apologize in advance… I sincerely apologize. My intention is not to hurt anybody’s feelings, but I have to reply to the presentation, to the earlier speaker. As far as Islam is concerned, it is not compulsory for a human being to have Non-Veg. - a Muslim can be a very good Muslim, even by being a pure Vegetarian. But… but when our Creator… Almighty God… Allah (SWT), gives us permission to have Non-Veg., why should we not have it? And I started my talk by giving a quotation from the Glorious Qur’an, from Surah Maidah, Ch. No. 5, Verse No. 1, which says… (Arabic )…. ‘Fulfill all your obligations and lawful for you for food are. All four footed animals with the exceptions named’. Qur’an further says in Surah Nahl, Ch. No. 16, V. No. 5… ‘that cattle has been created by God, for you - in it are various benefits…. - You derive warmth, and of their meat you can eat’. The same message is repeated in Surah Mominun, Ch. 23, V. No. 21… ‘that you can have the meat of the cattle’. Let us analyze the geographical reasons and the surrounding environment… and as we know, it influences is the person’s food habit - like people living in the coastal region … the Kookiness, they have more fish - People living in South India, they have more Rice - People living in the desert, where there is scarcity of vegetation, and people mainly survive on the flesh of animals. The Eskimo in the Arctic region, where there is scarcity of edible vegetation, they survive more on sea food. And Mr. Zaveri said that…‘ he knows that vegetable is not available in certain parts of the world, but today, due to advancement of transportation, we can supply them with vegetables’. I would request the Indian Vegetarian Congress to supply, at least give the transportation cost… that is all… to supply to the Eskimos, to supply to Saudi Arabia. You get vegetables in Saudi Arabia, it is more expensive… Why? … because the cost of transportation - that makes if more expensive. It is illogical and unscientific to spend more money, to buy a food which is less nutritious. Let us analyze the ‘Humane reason’, the ‘Ethical reasons’ - And the pure Vegetarians, they say that… ‘All life is sacred - and no living creature should be killed’. They fail to realize that today, it is a universal fact, that even plants have got life - So the main argument on killing living creature, does not hold good today. Previously may be… a couple of centuries ago, it may have held some weight, but today it carries no weight. Then they further argue today, and they say… ‘Yes we know that plants have got life, but they cannot feel pain… therefore killing a plant, is a lesser crime and lesser sin, as compared to killing an animal’. Today, science has further advanced, and we have come to know that even the plants can feel pain, they can even cry - But the cry of the plant cannot be heard by the human ear, because the audible frequency range of the human ear, is from 20 cycles per second, to 20,000 cycles per second - Anything below and above this, the human ear cannot hear.
But the cry of the animal can be heard by the human being - but the cry of the plant cannot be heard by the human being - Just because you cannot hear the cry of the plant, that does not justify you to inflict pain or kill the plant. There was an ideological Vegetarian, who had a discussion with me, and he told me that… ‘Brother Zakir, I know the plants have life, they feel pain… but you know plants… they have got about two senses less, as compared to the animals’. I said… ‘For the sake of argument I agree with you’. But then I asked him a simple question, that… ‘Suppose your brother is born deaf and dumb - cannot hear, cannot speak - two senses less - and when he grows up, and when someone comes and murders him - will you go and tell the Judge…‘ O my Lord give the murderer a less punishment, because my brother had two senses less’. In fact he will say… ‘Usne to Masoom ko mara hai’… ‘He has killed an innocent person - give him a bigger punishment’. And further if you analyze that in Islam, as far as living creatures are concerned - they are two types… broadly classified in two types - ‘Human beings who are living creatures’- and Non-human being living creatures. As far as killing the human beings are concerned, Qur’an says in Surah Maidah, Ch. No. 5, Verse No. 32 that… ‘If any person - if any one kills any human being, unless if be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land, it is as though he has killed the whole of humanity and if any saves an human being, it is as though he has saved the whole nation’. If any person kills any human being… Muslim or Non-Muslim, unless if it be for murder or for creating mischief, Qur’an says… ‘He has killed whole of humanity - if you save any human being, you have saved the whole of humanity’. As far as non-human being living creatures are concerned, no human being should harm them unnecessarily… should not kill them unnecessarily… for sports, or for fun, or for target practice - but if it is for you security and for your safety, you can stop them, you can even kill them - or if you want for lawful food, but not just for fun and frolic, or for hunting. Even if I agree that the plants are a lesser species, as compared to the human beings - if you take the life of one animal… an average animal, it can feed about hundred human beings. For this same hundred human beings, you may have to kill more than hundred plants. So is it preferable to take the life of one living animal, or the life of 100 living plants?… Which is a bigger sin? …Is it a bigger sin to kill human beings who are handicapped, or kill one healthy human being… which is a bigger sin? - You decide for yourself. There is a Vegetarian Society by the name of ‘World Foundation on Reverence for all Life’… Most of the quotations which he gave, is from here and from these three books… most of them … all most all. The name of the foundation is ‘World Foundation as Reverence for all Life’- they forgot to mention… (except plant life) in bracket. And it says… ‘All creation is one family… All life is sacred’. What kind of an ideology is this, that you permit the killing of one family member, but do not permit the killing of the another family member? - It is illogical and unscientific. You know in America, there are Vegetarian societies who take students to slaughter houses, and they make them see the blood shed and convert them to Vegetarianism. It is like a doctor taking the young girls to observe and watch a difficult childbirth, and then say that… ‘Is the reason you should not marry, and you should not have children’. These are unethical forms of mind control - unethical…unethical. In fact we should teach our children that… ‘When vegetables can be grown for food, why cannot animals be raised for food?’ All life is sacred… I agree… Unnecessarily killing them is wrong - But for your requirement, lawful food is permitted.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Dr Zakir Naik said :
Let us analyze the various reasons, why a person chooses a food habit. It can be Religious, it can be Geographical location, it can be a personal choice, smell, taste, colour’. Due to humane or ethical consideration, due to anatomical and physiological consideration, due to behavioral consideration, it can be due to ecological and economical consideration, it can be due to nutritional value or due to health and scientific reasons… health and medical reasons. Let us first analyze the Religious reasons - Mr. Trivedi said that… ‘Religion should not interfere with the human being… where it is concerned, what we should, and what we should not eat - That we should leave it up to the doctor’. I agree with him that most of the Religions, that is in the case. The Religious authority, the main foundation… that is Almighty God, if He is not a doctor, the God that you worship is not a doctor, then you should not follow him - He says… ‘Leave it to the doctor’. But in Islam, we believe… Allah (SWT), Almighty God, is our Creator - and the Creator of the human beings has far Superior knowledge, than all the doctors put together, in all the years. And you can find the statement, as Mr. Rashmibhai Zaveri said… ‘All from doctors’ - he is quoting from these books, which I think is available for sale outside… all these books. I will touch on some of these points, all out of which many are fictitious… fictitious, do not exist at all - Some are irrelevant, some are untested and some are truth… which are half-baked. I would like to make one point crystal clear, that while I prove undoubtedly, that Non-Veg. food should be permitted for the human beings, I do not have the slightest intention to hurt the feelings of any Vegetarian. And while I prove logically and scientifically that Non-Veg. food is permitted, and if someone feels hurt, his sentiments are hurt… I apologize in advance… I sincerely apologize. My intention is not to hurt anybody’s feelings, but I have to reply to the presentation, to the earlier speaker. As far as Islam is concerned, it is not compulsory for a human being to have Non-Veg. - a Muslim can be a very good Muslim, even by being a pure Vegetarian. But… but when our Creator… Almighty God… Allah (SWT), gives us permission to have Non-Veg., why should we not have it? And I started my talk by giving a quotation from the Glorious Qur’an, from Surah Maidah, Ch. No. 5, Verse No. 1, which says… (Arabic )…. ‘Fulfill all your obligations and lawful for you for food are. All four footed animals with the exceptions named’. Qur’an further says in Surah Nahl, Ch. No. 16, V. No. 5… ‘that cattle has been created by God, for you - in it are various benefits…. - You derive warmth, and of their meat you can eat’. The same message is repeated in Surah Mominun, Ch. 23, V. No. 21… ‘that you can have the meat of the cattle’. Let us analyze the geographical reasons and the surrounding environment… and as we know, it influences is the person’s food habit - like people living in the coastal region … the Kookiness, they have more fish - People living in South India, they have more Rice - People living in the desert, where there is scarcity of vegetation, and people mainly survive on the flesh of animals. The Eskimo in the Arctic region, where there is scarcity of edible vegetation, they survive more on sea food. And Mr. Zaveri said that…‘ he knows that vegetable is not available in certain parts of the world, but today, due to advancement of transportation, we can supply them with vegetables’. I would request the Indian Vegetarian Congress to supply, at least give the transportation cost… that is all… to supply to the Eskimos, to supply to Saudi Arabia. You get vegetables in Saudi Arabia, it is more expensive… Why? … because the cost of transportation - that makes if more expensive. It is illogical and unscientific to spend more money, to buy a food which is less nutritious. Let us analyze the ‘Humane reason’, the ‘Ethical reasons’ - And the pure Vegetarians, they say that… ‘All life is sacred - and no living creature should be killed’. They fail to realize that today, it is a universal fact, that even plants have got life - So the main argument on killing living creature, does not hold good today. Previously may be… a couple of centuries ago, it may have held some weight, but today it carries no weight. Then they further argue today, and they say… ‘Yes we know that plants have got life, but they cannot feel pain… therefore killing a plant, is a lesser crime and lesser sin, as compared to killing an animal’. Today, science has further advanced, and we have come to know that even the plants can feel pain, they can even cry - But the cry of the plant cannot be heard by the human ear, because the audible frequency range of the human ear, is from 20 cycles per second, to 20,000 cycles per second - Anything below and above this, the human ear cannot hear.
But the cry of the animal can be heard by the human being - but the cry of the plant cannot be heard by the human being - Just because you cannot hear the cry of the plant, that does not justify you to inflict pain or kill the plant. There was an ideological Vegetarian, who had a discussion with me, and he told me that… ‘Brother Zakir, I know the plants have life, they feel pain… but you know plants… they have got about two senses less, as compared to the animals’. I said… ‘For the sake of argument I agree with you’. But then I asked him a simple question, that… ‘Suppose your brother is born deaf and dumb - cannot hear, cannot speak - two senses less - and when he grows up, and when someone comes and murders him - will you go and tell the Judge…‘ O my Lord give the murderer a less punishment, because my brother had two senses less’. In fact he will say… ‘Usne to Masoom ko mara hai’… ‘He has killed an innocent person - give him a bigger punishment’. And further if you analyze that in Islam, as far as living creatures are concerned - they are two types… broadly classified in two types - ‘Human beings who are living creatures’- and Non-human being living creatures. As far as killing the human beings are concerned, Qur’an says in Surah Maidah, Ch. No. 5, Verse No. 32 that… ‘If any person - if any one kills any human being, unless if be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land, it is as though he has killed the whole of humanity and if any saves an human being, it is as though he has saved the whole nation’. If any person kills any human being… Muslim or Non-Muslim, unless if it be for murder or for creating mischief, Qur’an says… ‘He has killed whole of humanity - if you save any human being, you have saved the whole of humanity’. As far as non-human being living creatures are concerned, no human being should harm them unnecessarily… should not kill them unnecessarily… for sports, or for fun, or for target practice - but if it is for you security and for your safety, you can stop them, you can even kill them - or if you want for lawful food, but not just for fun and frolic, or for hunting. Even if I agree that the plants are a lesser species, as compared to the human beings - if you take the life of one animal… an average animal, it can feed about hundred human beings. For this same hundred human beings, you may have to kill more than hundred plants. So is it preferable to take the life of one living animal, or the life of 100 living plants?… Which is a bigger sin? …Is it a bigger sin to kill human beings who are handicapped, or kill one healthy human being… which is a bigger sin? - You decide for yourself. There is a Vegetarian Society by the name of ‘World Foundation on Reverence for all Life’… Most of the quotations which he gave, is from here and from these three books… most of them … all most all. The name of the foundation is ‘World Foundation as Reverence for all Life’- they forgot to mention… (except plant life) in bracket. And it says… ‘All creation is one family… All life is sacred’. What kind of an ideology is this, that you permit the killing of one family member, but do not permit the killing of the another family member? - It is illogical and unscientific. You know in America, there are Vegetarian societies who take students to slaughter houses, and they make them see the blood shed and convert them to Vegetarianism. It is like a doctor taking the young girls to observe and watch a difficult childbirth, and then say that… ‘Is the reason you should not marry, and you should not have children’. These are unethical forms of mind control - unethical…unethical. In fact we should teach our children that… ‘When vegetables can be grown for food, why cannot animals be raised for food?’ All life is sacred… I agree… Unnecessarily killing them is wrong - But for your requirement, lawful food is permitted.
Dr chintu bhopali says that we should respect life in every form. Do you like when any anmial is slaugheterd ...do u like seeing his blood gushing out...do you like when he his throat is cut and he is left in pain to die??
what message are you giving to your children ?
start eating dog,cats,crow everything on which you can lay ur hands on.. afterall everything is made by god just for you to survive.
Re: Good Non-Muslim People
Equating the killing of plants and animals is intellectually dishonest and just plain silly.