Gog and Magog (merged)

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Gog and Magog

Neandrathals are not homo sapiens...?

I've never heard of this.

[CM]

Re: Gog and Magog

Its a scientific classification. Humans are Homo Sapien Sapiens. They have a brother race the Neandrathals, which were more advanced in writting etc than Homo Sapien Sapiens. Its the human race chart. Its all bio 101.

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

Re: Gog and Magog

I've concluded that all this is pointless conjecture.

Regardless of whether we believe they are human or not, regardless of whether we believe the wall is physical or not, we all believe in the following.

1. The are a people called the Gog and Magog, and an obstacle of some kind was created by Zulqurnain to prevent them swarming all over the world.
2. Shortly before the day of Qiyamat, they will overcome the obstacle and swarm out to wreck havoc.

Knowing where they are, whether the wall is physical or not, etc etc etc is all pointless. It does not change a thing at all. Ultimately, given the inevitability of their wrecking havoc, pointlessly bickering over the finer points accomplishes nothing at all other than divide us.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Gog and Magog

The neandrathals were more advanced in writing? I never took any special courses in evolution, but weren't the neandrathals dead and frozen in their graves before writing actually came about?

You sure you're not reading sci fi, or some weird evolutionist's theory? I don't remember these being accepted as scientific fact, although I never concentrated in macro-evolutionary theory much.

[Sadiyah]

Re: Gog and Magog

I stumbled across the following while searching for something else. I thought I’d share: The Appearance of Gog and Magog

[bob_chasm]

Re: Gog and Magog

@The Old Man

I was following the debate here with interest as it is teaching me something new of Islam. Glad some young man will start giving more attention to the Quran as well!

I did not want to bring up the Christian side as it might derail what is presently debated but more can be read about it in

1. Gen.10v2 where Magog is a son of Japheth (Noah’s son)
2. Ezek.38-39 prophesy of the defeat of Gog and Magog at the end of times
3. Rev.20v8 where the Gog and Magog will be nations that will do battle against Jerusalem at the end of times, same as per the prophet Ezekiel

Christian scholars differ as to who or what country form part of the Gog and Magog. Gog according to Ezekiel is from a country called Magog and prince over Meshech and Tubal.

Old Man,

I think it was the Jews who asked the prophet Mohammad p about Zulqarnain and Gog and Magog. They were trying to trip Mohammad, by exposing him as someone with superficial understanding of the Bible. They thought he wouldnt be able to respond to such a difficult topic in the Bible, since knowledge of the Bible, in those days, was limited to Jewish rabbis and Christian monks who read and understood Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin, languages unknown to Mohammad p. However, Mohammad responded with these eloquent verses and a lot more which must have astounded them. So, from the perspective of the Jews, what was Mohammad p saying?

According to Jewish sages, the nation locked behind the two mountains would be the tribe of White Aryans, the sons of Japeth, that lived in the caucasian mountains, near tubal, musech of Russia. These tribes would migrate west into Europe in 700 BC, eventually becoming the Greek and Roman Empire that invaded the Middle East. Hence, from the Jewish perspective, Gog was the coming of the Greeks and Romans to the Middle East, a force of darkness. The messiah was eagarly awaited by the Jews to remove this Gog. This is precisely when Jesus p fails to remove the Romans that he was rejected by the Jews. Now Mohammad p had come claiming to be the one prophesised in the Bible. So the Jews asked him about Gog and Magog. Mohammad p in no uncertain terms explained, he indeed was the one that had been sent to remove them from the middle east. The rest is history. Rome was infact defeated by the Arabs with the help of some Jewish tribes. Thus Mohammad p fulfilled a major prophesey of the bible.

regards,

bob

[The_Old_Man]

Re: Gog and Magog

@bob_chasm

According to Jewish sages, the nation locked behind the two mountains would be the tribe of White Aryans, the sons of Japeth, that lived in the caucasian mountains, near tubal, musech of Russia. These tribes would migrate west into Europe in 700 BC, eventually becoming the Greek and Roman Empire that invaded the Middle East. Hence, from the Jewish perspective, Gog was the coming of the Greeks and Romans to the Middle East, a force of darkness. The messiah was eagarly awaited by the Jews to remove this Gog. This is precisely when Jesus p fails to remove the Romans that he was rejected by the Jews. Now Mohammad p had come claiming to be the one prophesised in the Bible. So the Jews asked him about Gog and Magog. Mohammad p in no uncertain terms explained, he indeed was the one that had been sent to remove them from the middle east.

Thanks for the interesting explanation, Bob_chasm. It does raise some questions though:

1. As per Mad_Scientist (I just can’t get myself to type the way he does! ), should one consider this piece then not literally? I mean there was then not a genuine wall, etc.

2. By the time of the prophet Muhammad, the Greeks were long gone surely.

3. The Jews expected the Messiah to appear near the end of times, and re-unite them with their promissed land, etc. The Messiah also would remain among them as well. How would they see above explanation after a time?

4. Tell me more about “Zulqarnain” please.

[bob_chasm]

Re: Gog and Magog

@The Old Man

Thanks for the interesting explanation, Bob_chasm. It does raise some questions though:

1. As per Mad_Scientist (I just can’t get myself to type the way he does! ), should one consider this piece then not literally? I mean there was then not a genuine wall, etc.

It might have been a reference to the 50 mile caucasian wall with Iron and copper gates. It is at the crossroad of Persia and the caucus mountains. So it can be speculated that Darius/ Cyrus may have been responsible for building it. Although, there is no historical grounds to believe Alexander constructed it, it is known as Alexander’s wall too. He was probably the one to breech it. lol

2. By the time of the prophet Muhammad, the Greeks were long gone surely.

Jews considered the Romans and Greeks as sister tribes of Gog. It isnt surprizing to them, therefore, that the scripture of the Romans (The New Testament) is incidentally, in Greek.

3. The Jews expected the Messiah to appear near the end of times, and re-unite them with their promissed land, etc. The Messiah also would remain among them as well. How would they see above explanation after a time?

That was not the only expectation in israelite history. For example, the dss (dead sea scrolls) reveal the expectation of two messiahs, one lay and the other priestly. The modern Jews have rejected both Jesus and Mohammed p. Hence, in my view, they will continue to await a messiah that unites the qualities of Jesus and Mohammad in one person and rises among them.

4. Tell me more about “Zulqarnain” please.

Zulqarnain means one with two horns. I think it coulc be a reference to:

“The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the Kings of Media and Persia” (Dan8:20).

regards,

bob

[Code_Red]

Re: Gog and Magog

@mAd_ScIeNtIsT

If the wall is taken to be physical, then it certainly cannot be considered to be the Great Wall of China. The wall is described as physically being between the tops of two mountains.

The thing that is on my mind is that any point on earth can now be seen from the air, and yet no country has been able to find a wall of this size and an undocumented lost nation of people within its boundaries. And there is no evidence that it is a hidden wall of any kind, since it was made by a man.

Talking about contemporary explainations..

The wall ‘was’ built somewhere in Caucasus around the border of Arminia and Now Azarbaijan. I Don’t know exactly, but there are no sign of that Wall now…

I read somewhere that Huzrat Umar sent some men to visit the area and wall. Dont know much of the detail. It was written in Tafseer of Moulana Moudodi also there is a map of that area where that wall supposidly, was built…

But I personally would like to stick to the theory presented by CM. I am of the view that at present time we can and we should explore other posibilities. Gog magog could very possibly be Extratrestrial being. and the wall could be the physical/Technological restrictions on them to visit planet earth. Until the time they rebuild the infrastructure again which was destroyed by Zulqarnain they may not visit us again …

^^ that is one possibility, on the other hand, Mangols might have been addressed as Gog magog, quite a few similarities.

I am at ease with the theory of ETs visiting earth from time to time, they may have visited few thousand years ago, they may have stayed for some time. I think that the inhabitants of ‘Lost world of Atlantis’ , were also not humans they were far supperior …

Any ways these all are theories, God knows everything

[xlnc786]

Re: Gog and Magog

all i know is that they are very great in number and from a hadeez i conclude that for every 1000 humans there are 999 Gog and magog . As Hazrat Mohammad (PBUH) said that on judgement day from every 1000 , 999 will go to hell. The sahabah were scared then Hazrat Mohammad (PBUH) said those 999 would be GOG and Magog.

And about the wall no one has an exact theory that can prove a wall but as per islam their arrival is one of the last signs of Qayamat when Hazrat Esa(A.S) is going to be among us.

[ammarr]

Re: Gog and Magog

I think the question of 'why it hasn't been found yet' is very weak. Our 'brain' sees whatever our eyes transmits to it. More like impulses to the brain.. so its easy for us to 'see' something even if its not there (by generating the same impulses) and vice versa. If we believe Allah (swt) to be all-mighty, then He is certainly capable to sheilding us from the wall if He so desires.

Every nation at its time has believed that its current knowledge is 'complete' and everything that does not fit with it is not correct, and this has proven to be wrong over the ages.. there is nothing to say even know that we are in a position to know and see everything. What if the wall just exists in another dimension, not visible to us (yet)?

[xlnc786]

Re: Gog and Magog

@ammarr

I think the question of ‘why it hasn’t been found yet’ is very weak. Our ‘brain’ sees whatever our eyes transmits to it. More like impulses to the brain.. so its easy for us to ‘see’ something even if its not there (by generating the same impulses) and vice versa. If we believe Allah (swt) to be all-mighty, then He is certainly capable to sheilding us from the wall if He so desires.

Every nation at its time has believed that its current knowledge is ‘complete’ and everything that does not fit with it is not correct, and this has proven to be wrong over the ages.. there is nothing to say even know that we are in a position to know and see everything. What if the wall just exists in another dimension, not visible to us (yet)?

i totally agree … this is the kind of thought i was lokking for.

[lazy_daisy]

Re: Gog and Magog

First of all Id like to thankyou to all of you who have taken time out to education and inform.

a long time ago I read about the Alexander the great theory and one where Gog and Magog are not human entities as such, but a virus…it was thought that it may have been somethingsimilar too or perhaps the Aids virus

but that was around the time when there was much talk about hiv and aids

secondly I was wondering if this Gog and Magog was the related to the brit legend
http://www.lordmayorsshow.org/hist/gogmagog.shtml

Towards the head of the procession you will see two enormous but benevolent giants. They are Gog and Magog, the traditional guardians of the City of London who have been carried in the Lord Mayor’s Show since the reign of Henry V. They are descended from the pagan giants of early English pageantry and their history is buried in the mysterious world of myth and legend.

The story goes that Diocletian - the Roman Emperor - had thirty-three wicked daughters, for whom he managed to find thirty-three husbands to curb their unruly ways. The daughters were dismayed, and under the leadership of their eldest sister Alba they plotted to cut the throats of their husbands as they slept.

For this crime they were set adrift in a boat with half a year’s rations, and after a long and dreadful journey they arrived at the islands which came to be named Albion after the eldest. Here they stayed, co-habited with demons, and produced a race of evil giants to inhabit the wild, windswept islands.

Many early peoples regarded the original inhabitants of their territory as giants, and the memory of these early races was preserved in mythology. Heros became giants in the popular mind. They were often large and powerful men, and their physical strength and stature became exaggerated as their deeds passed into legend. The pagan giants were not ugly or deformed, they were simply giant men inhabiting a golden age of might and simplicity.

The story continues: Brutus, the great-grandson of Æneas, fled from Troy and by way of various scrapes arrived in these islands, which he renamed after himself; Britain. With him he brought his most able warrior and champion, Corineus, who fought the leader of the giant brood in single combat and eventually slew him by hurling him from a high rock into the sea.

The name of the giant was Gogmagog and the rock from which he was thrown became known as Langoënagog or “The Giants Leap”. As a reward Corineus was given the western part of the island, which became named after him; Cornwall. Brutus travelled to the east, where he built a city which he called Troya Nova, or New Troy, which eventually came to be known as London.

[Gizzy]

Re: Gog and Magog

@TheNewWannaBe

remember my theory on KEERA MAKORAAS?

what theory?

[TheNewWannaBe]

Re: Gog and Magog

but gog magog are supposed to be killed by Jesus not prophet Mohammed PBUH. God Magog are supposed to come after Jesus has got rid of Dajjal on his second coming. That’s when they will appear in huge numbers. We are still waiting for messiah. It is he who will kill god magog not prophet Mohammed PBUH.

@bob_chasm

…would be the tribe of White Aryans, the sons of Japeth, that lived in the caucasian mountains, near tubal, musech of Russia. These tribes would migrate west into Europe in 700 BC, eventually becoming the Greek and Roman Empire that invaded the Middle East. Hence, from the Jewish perspective, Gog was the coming of the Greeks and Romans to the Middle East, a force of darkness. The messiah was eagarly awaited by the Jews to remove this Gog. This is precisely when Jesus p fails to remove the Romans that he was rejected by the Jews. Now Mohammad p had come claiming to be the one prophesised in the Bible. So the Jews asked him about Gog and Magog. Mohammad p in no uncertain terms explained, he indeed was the one that had been sent to remove them from the middle east. The rest is history. Rome was infact defeated by the Arabs with the help of some Jewish tribes. Thus Mohammad p fulfilled a major prophesey of the bible.
bob

[TheNewWannaBe]

Re: Gog and Magog

I think hindians are either gog or magog (one of these two races). They are huge in numbers. They are evil. They spread corruption. They killing believers. They are no one’s friend. They want Jews/Christians/Muslims fight and die. They manipulate all and it is working. You can see it is working. None of us has been able to recognize who is behind this all. Media has said alot. Media will say alot. Many things were said by the media but turned out were not true.

I would like to believe my theory is not true but… Well, I hope future reveals the truth. Why do you think I hate them so much? They are nobody’s friend.

@Gizzy

what theory?

[bob_chasm]

Re: Gog and Magog

@TheNewWannaBe

but gog magog are supposed to be killed by Jesus not prophet Mohammed PBUH. God Magog are supposed to come after Jesus has got rid of Dajjal on his second coming. That’s when they will appear in huge numbers. We are still waiting for messiah. It is he who will kill god magog not prophet Mohammed PBUH.

thanks for sharing your opinion.

regards,

bob

[Capitol]

Re: Gog and Magog

@TheNewWannaBe

They are huge in numbers. They are evil. They spread corruption.

So do Muslims.

They killing believers.

Muslims kill each other more so than Indians could ever dream to.

They are no one’s friend.

No they are everyone’s friend. The reason is because they are smart, intelligent and don’t blow themselves up.

They want Jews/Christians/Muslims fight and die. They manipulate all and it is working.

LOL. So Indians are running these hateful madrassas which produce terrorists?

[Lahore_981]

Re: Gog and Magog

Okay I have a question. One of the point of view about Gogg Maggog is that they will be the Oriental Race (Chinese People) what do you guys say? Obviously they are there in great numbers, and they are also struggling for domination

[queer]

Re: Gog and Magog

@TheNewWannaBe

I think hindians are either gog or magog (one of these two races). They are huge in numbers. They are evil. They spread corruption. They killing believers. They are no one’s friend. They want Jews/Christians/Muslims fight and die. They manipulate all and it is working. You can see it is working. None of us has been able to recognize who is behind this all. Media has said alot. Media will say alot. Many things were said by the media but turned out were not true.

I would like to believe my theory is not true but… Well, I hope future reveals the truth. Why do you think I hate them so much? They are nobody’s friend.

this is a perfect example of abusing religion to suit personal biases and agendas. given the rate at which muslims call every other religion’s followers such names, isnt the xenophobia towards muslims justified?