^^ And I am saying so what if theyd decide to do it...If Muslim soldiers in Turkey can rip the Hijab off the heads of Muslim girls, what right have we to criticise the Germans? They aren't even Muslims...
Sorry Changez, I was just being sarcastic in my latter post...What I meant through that sarcasm was the sad state of affairs in the Ummah itself...Sorry...
P.S. And I did go through the whole post...Honest...:D
Soul what reaction did you want from muslims or as you call moslems on this forum "yes master whatever you say master" ?or is it another attempt at telling muslims how they are wrong and would be not tolerated?
lajawab, i liked your reply.
Shawaiz, you are right. Anti war campaign was an international issue, more to do with anti-americanism. But what was the local issue? Moslem immigrants.
*A candidate in Germany’s upcoming elections has promised voters to
deport 4000 Muslims from the country if he wins. If he is voted in as
chancellor on Sunday, September 22, conservative candidate Edmund
Stoiber has pledged to deport4,000 Muslims, the British daily newspaper,
the Guardian, reported Thursday, September 19.
Behind in most polls, the Bavarian governor - a hard-liner on law and
order - appeared to be making a last-gasp effort to tap into fears over
a link between immigration and terrorism in Europe , the daily said.
He told a rowdy crowd, packed into the market square of Werne , on the
edge of the Ruhr district, that there were 30,000 identified Muslim
fundamentalist extremists in Germany .
"Among these 30,000 so-called Islamists, there are 4,000 who are ready
for violence, " he claimed. “The police know that; 4,000 are known by
name as being disposed to violence and are suspected of belonging to
foreign terrorist organizations such as the Algerian GIA. I say to you:
these 4,000 - I will expel them from the country.” *
I will post more such links if you still think i am off the mark.
AK47,
What do you mean by FREEDOM?
going to someone’s house and sh!ting all over the place is also freedom of expression.
You think just b’coz they grant you freedom to practise yor religion, you take to the limit of threatening them with JIHAD in their own house, and think you can get away with it??
Democracy is ppls rule, i meant the majority of natives not the immigrants. If they can’t respect the native culture, they can buy their return tickets.
And ITS GONNA BE ENACTED IN FRANCE TOO …TIE YOR SEAT BELTS!!
AND STOP WHINNING!!
***Some see it as a flag of Islamic militancy, or a sign of submission to men. Others see it as the start of a spiral into unknown territory that could transform France’s definition of itself.
With 5 million Muslims, more than 8 percent of the population and increasingly assertive, France is becoming concerned for its hard-won secular underpinnings guaranteed by the constitution. **
So deep are these concerns that President Jacques Chirac established a commission in July to study just where secularism stands in a country with the largest Muslim population in Europe.
It is indeed the question of our national cohesion that is being posed,'' Chirac said in July. We cannot remain passive.‘’
Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin has threatened that if necessary he’ll pass a law to impose secularism. ``I’m not afraid of Islam,‘’ he said last spring.
The issue isn’t just the humble head scarf. Both Chirac and the prime minister have voiced disapproval over other Muslim demands that they see as challenging basic tenets of what it is to be French: sexually segregated classrooms, a school calendar that respects Muslim holy days, and the refusal to take oral exams with professors of the opposite sex.
But it is the scarf that has captured center stage.*
[QUOTE]
Soul what reaction did you want from muslims or as you call moslems on this forum "yes master whatever you say master" ?
[/QUOTE]
Whats a Difference between a MOSLEMS and a MUSLIMS....is it detoiratory term?? Explain!
And without any fuss I will switch to 'Muslims'.
'Moslems' is common in east Europe. 'Muslims' is common in sub continent and middle east.
That dose not derail the topic, sir!!
Kindly, please refrain from using CAPS LOCK in your replies. I would really appreciate it. Thank you -- Samarra.
Okie, pt noted.
thx
Hmmm so a "Moslem" woman wearing a hijab is a violent immigrant?
Nice! Real nice!
The closemindedness of some people just amazes me at times.
If a woman chooses to cover up her hair, what's that got to do with the rest of the world? How's that affecting others? And if the govt. is trying to ban a religious symbol because they think it's "political", why don't they ban all religious symbols?
Just tell me: How will banning hijab prevent "terror" attacks? If you ask me, that's asking for trouble.
Anyway, who can blame non-Muslims for this when Muslim countries like Turkey don't give a damn. If the Muslim world had any guts, they would've prevented the Turkish govt. from passing that pathetic law. Obviously we do not respect ourselves. Why should we expect others to do so?
[Islam] Muslim head scarves force France to grapple with its identity
Associated Press (USA), Oct. 19, 2003
By Elaine Ganley
**PARIS (AP) A century ago, France pulled down the crucifixes hanging in its classrooms in a triumphant climax to its fight to separate the state from the powerful Roman Catholic Church.
Today, battle lines are being drawn over another religious emblem, the Islamic head scarf, which some French see as a threat to their nation’s core values and unity.**The Hijab Muslim headscarves upset secular Europe
A bitter debate over whether the head-covering can be worn in public schools, or by civil servants, has festered for nearly 15 years and deepened as France’s Muslim sons and daughters come of age.
**Some see it as a flag of Islamic militancy, or a sign of submission to men. Others see it as the start of a spiral into unknown territory that could transform France’s definition of itself.
With 5 million Muslims, more than 8 percent of the population and increasingly assertive, France is becoming concerned for its hard-won secular underpinnings guaranteed by the constitution.
So deep are these concerns that President Jacques Chirac established a commission in July to study just where secularism stands in a country with the largest Muslim population in Europe.
It is indeed the question of our national cohesion that is being posed,'' Chirac said in July. We cannot remain passive.‘’
Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin has threatened that if necessary he’ll pass a law to impose secularism. ``I’m not afraid of Islam,‘’ he said last spring.
The issue isn’t just the humble head scarf. Both Chirac and the prime minister have voiced disapproval over other Muslim demands that they see as challenging basic tenets of what it is to be French: sexually segregated classrooms, a school calendar that respects Muslim holy days, and the refusal to take oral exams with professors of the opposite sex.
But it is the scarf that has captured center stage.**
The level of debate racheted up with the expulsion this month of two sisters from the Henry Wallon high school in Aubervilliers, a Paris suburb, for refusing to remove their scarves.
Teachers said the school acted on complaints from some Muslim pupils who wanted the ban enforced.
Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy backed the expulsion, and Francois Hollande, leader of the opposition Socialist Party, agreed, saying: ``The law must be applied. We’re in a secular country.‘’
Each year, there are about 150 complaints involving head scarves, according to Hanifa Cherifi, the Education Ministry’s mediator who intervenes in crisis situations. Unresolved cases lead to expulsion fewer than 50 last year, Cherifi said.
Even among Muslims there is disagreement over whether their religion mandates the scarf that in most cases covers hair, ears and sometimes forehead and shoulders. But hundreds of girls defy the unwritten code forbidding scarves in public schools. While many schools tolerate it, it leads to conflicts, teachers’ strikes and court cases in others.
There are large Muslim communities in neighboring countries, from Britain to Belgium. Incidents involving scarves are usually settled quietly on the local level, but in September, Germany’s highest court failed to resolve the case of a Muslim woman who was denied a state teaching job unless she doffed her scarf.
The court asked Germany’s 16 states to draft laws on scarves in state institutions, and four of them quickly announced they would seek to legislate a ban.
``The head scarf, after all, is not just folklore and a mere symbol (but) a demonstration of an expression of faith,‘’ said Hesse state minister for schools, Karin Wolff.
The Council of State, France’s highest administrative body, has said scarves should be banned only when they are of an ``ostentatious character.‘’ It left schools to make that judgment case by case.
The same rules apply to Jewish skullcaps and Catholic crucifixes. But there have been no public incidents triggered by students insisting on wearing skullcaps or ``ostentatious’’ crosses. There are many private Jewish schools in France, where skullcaps can be worn, but only two such Muslim schools.
In July, a Lyon court ruled against a civil servant suspended for refusing to remove her scarf at work. A month earlier, a Paris appeals court upheld a decision in favor of a woman who lost a private sector job after refusing to shed her scarf. Paris City Hall is debating whether to suspend a city social worker who refuses to remove her scarf or shake the hand of men she meets on the job.
``We’re in a sort of circle, like a serpent biting its tail,‘’ said Sylvie Taleb, principal of the Averroes Lycee, France’s first Muslim high school, located in a mosque in the northern city of Lille. Taleb, who teaches French, is a convert from Catholicism and wears a head scarf.
Many women say it’s an inseparable part of their identity.
It's practically my arm, my foot,'' said Fatima Ezahoui, a 37-year-old mother of four living in Villepinte, north of Paris. It’s part of me.‘’
She dismisses the debate as a ``false problem.‘’
It's like the young girls and their head scarves will destabilize the country,'' she said. Is France that fragile?‘’
France redefined itself in 1905 with a law separating church and state. Crosses were even forbidden on coffins during funeral processions, said Michele Tribalat, a sociologist. Rancor evolved into separate but peaceful coexistence.
The increase in Muslim girls insisting on wearing scarves to school parallels a rise in Muslim fundamentalism over the past 15 years, and a general increase in demands by minorities.
``Today, Islam is seen and shows itself, and that stirs fears,‘’ said Franck Fregosi, an expert at the National Center for Scientific Research.
France has for centuries fully assimilated its diverse population, which adopts French values whatever their origins. It is a model directly opposed to the Anglo-Saxon melting pot.
``We’re not completely sure of ourselves in this matter because our model is coming apart before our eyes,‘’ said Tribalat, the sociologist.
Huh? A hijab a symbol of submission to men? Why don't these people do some research? Who the heck am I submissing to by wearing a hijab, except my God? I live alone and no, my parents don't beat me with a stick if I don't.
How can you be so narrowminded??
Whatever happened to personal choice & freedom in a democratized country?
Anyway, I had no clue the non-MOSLEMS were that scared of hijabi girls. Haha, how cool! I've power I didn't even know I had! But thanks to your article, now I can wear my t-shirt that says:
Hi! I'm not a terrorist!
Will that help?
[QUOTE]
Who the heck am I submissing to by wearing a hijab, except my God?
[/QUOTE]
Wot about men? arent they suppose to submit to god? shouldn't they be wearing hijabs too??
dont you think if god wanted hijab mandatory...he could have sent you down with one??
And one wonders why your god didn't like pre-islamic faiths....esp. when they too used to wear hijabs anyway?
[QUOTE]
Whatever happened to personal choice & freedom in a democratized country?
[/QUOTE]
is 'democracy' islamic?
[QUOTE]
Hi! I'm not a terrorist!
Will that help?
[/QUOTE]
i dunno...try in mac-donalds
Soul
I think it is clear you have a severe hatred of islam and muslims.
Diversity is obviously a word you have not heard of!
i am anti-religionist...you can expect this out of me for all religions.
[QUOTE]
Diversity is obviously a word you have not heard of!
[/QUOTE]
how come this word comes to your mind only when you are not treated well in west....and never gets into your mind when minorities are persecuted in your islamic paradise under shariat laws??
*Originally posted by soul: *
…
dont you think if god wanted hijab mandatory…he could have sent you down with one??
That would be one most stupid way of testing someone 
… you are born with “hijab” and then you are tested if you wear it or not …
**And one wonders why your god didn’t like pre-islamic faiths…esp. when they too used to wear hijabs anyway? **
Any wonders what your understanding of ANY religion is? what religions are about (other than Hinduism)? Why were “messengers” sent? I think you need to go back to school for that.
is ‘democracy’ islamic?
Is “democracy” in anyway “freedom of choice”?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by soul: *
...
how come this word comes to your mind only when you are not treated well in west....and never gets into your mind when minorities are persecuted in your islamic paradise under shariat laws??
[/QUOTE]
Whats your purpose of life? why don't you protest against that? We'll protest for discrimination against us, you protest for your cause :p
[QUOTE]
That would be one most stupid way of testing someone .... you are born with "hijab" and then you are tested if you wear it or not ....
[/QUOTE]
I repeat...how does yor god test man??...arent they too suppose to be tested??
[QUOTE]
Any wonders what your understanding of ANY religion is? what religions are about (other than Hinduism)?
[/QUOTE]
and no body in pre islamic civilisation ever covered their heads....for wot ever reason....
romans, christians, jews, zorastrians...never covered their heads??
Moslems have invented veils!!!...is it???.....One learns new things every day.
[QUOTE]
Why were "messengers" sent?
[/QUOTE]
thats wot i too wonder, why can't God talk directly with us???
I repeat.
Is 'Democracy' Islamic? or evil?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by soul: *
i am anti-religionist...you can expect this out of me for all religions.
how come this word comes to your mind only when you are not treated well in west....and never gets into your mind when minorities are persecuted in your islamic paradise under shariat laws??
[/QUOTE]
So you admit you are anti islam and you expect people to respond to your insulting comments you don't even have dignity to respond with manners.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by soul: *
i am anti-religionist...you can expect this out of me for all religions.
[/QUOTE]
I see so you against muslims living in the west and you against islam as a whole.
But you belive in the greek philosophy of democracy which was abandoned by the greeks themselves thousands of years ago for causing chaos and confusion.
Since you cannot even admit your wrong on the issue of freedom and now change subject to democracy, that is fine you can keep skipping steps because your arguments have more holes than swiss cheese.
Speaking of swiss cheese and holes i have a question for the athiest extremists such as yourself which you admit your athiest how did the universe begin was is it super string theory or big bang theory or any other theory you care to mention!
i.e there was a spark and out of nothing universe appeared :)
*Originally posted by soul: *
I repeat…how does yor god test man??..arent they too suppose to be tested??
Does that not expose your scholarly knowledge of Islam? There are tons of ways Allah swt tests men. They are supposed to keep their gaze low when they see a women, for one example. But I am sure this won’t be sufficient for you as a “test”, and nothing will.
**and no body in pre islamic civilisation ever covered their heads…for wot ever reason…
romans, christians, jews, zorastrians…never covered their heads??
Moslems have invented veils!!!..is it???..One learns new things every day. **
covering heads is not the ISLAM, its only one part of it, Allah swt does not like or dislike people based on hijab alone. The very first step is to believe in Allah alone as God with no partners, then come secondary requirements. Did other civilisations believe in Allah as the ONLY God? C’mon, start to think, its about time (actually overdue, but thats okay).
thats wot i too wonder, why can’t God talk directly with us???
How is He supposed to be testing us if He reveals Himself unto us all?
**I repeat.
Is ‘Democracy’ Islamic? or evil? **
Democracy can be made “Islamic”, if “secular” demand is dropped. Its not evil if implemented properly, without bias.
[QUOTE]
So you admit you are anti islam and you expect people to respond to your insulting comments you don't even have dignity to respond with manners.
[/QUOTE]
anti-religion.....sire....that means all religions....why are you whinning about 'anti-islamic' only??
read my earlier post..i said..all religious symbols should be banned equally....but the problem is..you show no sensitivity for other religious symbols..but keep whinning about islam only....that is why all threads go, islam v/s anti-islam.
[QUOTE]
you don't even have dignity to respond with manners
[/QUOTE]
???? what was that???Why are you getting personal?? i dont run german or french govts!!
[QUOTE]
Democracy can be made "Islamic", if "secular" demand is dropped. Its not evil if implemented properly, without bias.
[/QUOTE]
what is secularism according to my learned friend?
is it practice of no religion or
is it freedom to preach and practice all religions...
**Originally posted by soul: *
what is secularism according to my learned friend?*
Secularism would be "no religion" in governement, and no strings attached.
**is it practice of no religion or
is it freedom to preach and practice all religions... **
It should be freedom to preach and practice all religions with no government interference/backing, that would include "atheism" (no-religion).