What is the source for this? As far as I know the war in Iraq is fought to get rid of the US. That does not mean that they want an islamic state.
As far as Iran goes, I was under the imprsession that a significatnt percentage are also opposed to the current system of Islamic Govt. And dissent is the surest way of touring the jail facilities of the country. Has this been forgottn or just ignored?
Democracy is not all that bad as a concept, in the end every country will have to adjust democracy to suit their particular needs.
Out of curiosity, if the German govt. actually changed the constitution and proclaimed that the country would henceforth be a Christian state, will their action of banning headscarves be justified? It is just a hypothetical situation, but what do you guys think. If they do so, then they can take refuge using all the defences currently given to Saudi Arabia and teh ME.
I doubt people would give Germany the same defence. So then the "crime" of the German state is that they lost sight of their lofty ideals as mentioned in the constitution and gave way to the fear of the nation, of the cultural invasion through immigration.
That is deep down the fear all over europe. Look at europe today, the maximum immigrants are from Muslim regions, and it is that fear of being overridden, along with the actual tensions between two very different attitudes to life that is clashing.
What is the solution...I dunno but it can definitely not be found in the above responses.
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*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
Another gem from democracy.
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You seem to have an acute dislike for democracy, is it the democracy as followed in the US or the whole concept of democracy that galls you?
And if Democracy as a concept is the culprit then what is the alternative? We have already seen that an Islamic state does not care for nonmuslims. Then if teh European countries went towards being a Christian state then non-Christian could expect the same treatment.
Before you say thats what is happening now..These are isolated incidents and cannot be seen as national policy...
*Originally posted by Toddytapper: *
You seem to have an acute dislike for democracy, is it the democracy as followed in the US or the whole concept of democracy that galls you?
I don’t have a problem with “democracy”, but have a problem with the flavor of it. You said what is the source of “Iraqis wanting Islamic government”, you should read newspapers or watch television more often. US has clearly shouted many times that it won’t allow “Theocracy”.
**And if Democracy as a concept is the culprit then what is the alternative? We have already seen that an Islamic state does not care for nonmuslims. Then if teh European countries went towards being a Christian state then non-Christian could expect the same treatment. **
As a democracy, if a majority of population wants to adapt rules of certain religion then why not? or is democracy anti-religion. If it is “anti-religion” then it should be applied sincerely and clearly in the countries who boast of “democracy” not something like France, Germany or whoever bans head-scarves but allows skull caps or other symbols for Jew/Christians. That is “hypocricy”, not “democracy”.
**Before you say thats what is happening now..These are isolated incidents and cannot be seen as national policy… **
head-scarves are being banned on “individual” basis? not government levels? are you sure?
and as for freedom of speech and practice of religion et all....
well every freedom has a string attached.
Those natives dont owe a single penny to immigrants...To expect them to understand your sensitivity, is your naivity.
As you see,sikhs, hindus, jews are not targetted...than why only moslems??? think!!
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Soul i heard same words you quote from a neo nazi group.
You ask me to think but you cannot admit your own failure to recognize you are wrong instead you shift the goalposts and now claim "Freedom comes with strings attached."
If that the case then it should no longer be labelled freedom!
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Changez_like: *
**Originally posted by Toddytapper: *
As a democracy, if a majority of population wants to adapt rules of certain religion then why not? or is democracy anti-religion. If it is "anti-religion" then it should be applied sincerely and clearly in the countries who boast of "democracy" not something like France, Germany or whoever bans head-scarves but allows skull caps or other symbols for Jew/Christians. That is "hypocricy", not "democracy".
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So if the majority people in a country want, lets say, no taxes, then shouldnt the govt agree to that?
My point was that being anti religion is the culprit, be it in a democracy or in an Islamic state. Why should an awoved Democratic country if it persecutes people muslims be considered more guilty than an Islamic country persecuting non-muslims?
So then the worst that the Germans can do is to say OK so we are hypocrites and we are morally shallow, now we accept that, but dont wear the headscarf...What then?
In any case, I dont think you can see the incident in isolation, there was an explanation as to why the headscarf was considered a political emblem....
**Originally posted by Toddytapper: *
My point was that being anti religion is the culprit, be it in a democracy or in an Islamic state. Why should an awoved Democratic country if it persecutes people muslims be considered more guilty than an Islamic country persecuting non-muslims?*
I know if I ask you for an "Islamic State" example, you will jump with Taliban, hey did they implement the rules as they were asked or did they do it on their own? The discussion here is regarding "Democracy", not "vs Islamic" so should we stay at that or divert it ?
So then the worst that the Germans can do is to say OK so we are hypocrites and we are morally shallow, now we accept that, but dont wear the headscarf...What then?
I don't think anybody will have a problem with that, if Germany declares itself a "Christian" country and then bans Headscarves for Moslems, it would be considered as "Christian State" not a democratic state, and that would be a different topic again.
*In any case, I dont think you can see the incident in isolation, there was an explanation as to why the headscarf was considered a political emblem.... *
Even Nazi had an explaination as to why he persecuted Jews, does that mean that everything that has explaination is legit?
The constitution of Germany demands the exclusion of religious considerations from Civil affairs and public education. The muslim living in Germany should respect it.
[QUOTE] Originally posted by Changez_like: *
**Originally posted by Toddytapper: *
I don't think anybody will have a problem with that, if Germany declares itself a "Christian" country and then bans Headscarves for Moslems, it would be considered as "Christian State" not a democratic state, and that would be a different topic again.
Even Nazi had an explaination as to why he persecuted Jews, does that mean that everything that has explaination is legit?
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My point exactly
If you claim to be so called democratic state and implement freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
Then when you do opposite and ban a woman from wearing headscarve then that shoots bullet holes in the idea of freedom and freedom of religion it is so clear even a child can see that!
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*Originally posted by soul: *
Germany is a democratic country, so this ban by their govt has ppl support. They have only singled out Moslem immigrants, not others.
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You're wide of the mark. The Federal Constitutional Court of Germany didn't ban the headsvarve. The FCC's verdict was rendered as follows, 'Headscarcve cannot be forbidden to Muslim teachers in Germany without a legal basis. And, till now, there isn't such a law'.
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If you know lil' about the current politics there, the recent elections were fought on anti-moslem platform.
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Another wrong statement. The ruling party SPD won the last last election on the basis of its anti-war campaign.
If you claim to be so called democratic state and implement freedom of speech and freedom of religion.
Then when you do opposite and ban a woman from wearing headscarve then that shoots bullet holes in the idea of freedom and freedom of religion it is so clear even a child can see that!
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The German constitution ensures full religious freedom to every of its citizen. They only want to ban it in the public schools.
shawaiz, from the very first post in this thread, read:
Not so long ago we heard a story about a Muslim woman who won the right to teach in school wearing the veil. This will change. Germany plans to ban the Muslim veil in public schools and some German states (Berlin, Hessen, Saarland) even want to ban it in other state institutions. Christian and Jewish symbols - including Jewish kippas - will be allowed. Germans argue that the veil is not just a religious symbol but a political statement.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
I don't think anybody will have a problem with that, if Germany declares itself a "Christian" country and then bans Headscarves for Moslems, it would be considered as "Christian State" not a democratic state, and that would be a different topic again.
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errr, there is a fine difference between democracy and secularism.
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*Originally posted by shawaiz: *
errr, there is a fine difference between democracy and secularism.
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True, but read out whats being said about democracy and religion around the world. They want "Muslim" countries to adopt democracy and cut all ties of religion with government, are all "democratic" countries doing that?
So what's the big deal if Germany bans the veil? It's not even a Muslim country and they have a right to ban it...
If Turkey can oppress its Muslim population, if Pakistan can bulldoze its citizens's houses, if Saudia and Egypt can put Islamic scholars in jail and torture them to death, what's the big deal if Germany even starts killing Muslims on the streets?
If our own leaders in our countries can wage wars against us, what right have we to criticise the German government to change its policies?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
True, but read out whats being said about democracy and religion around the world. They want "Muslim" countries to adopt democracy and cut all ties of religion with government, are all "democratic" countries doing that?
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I have never heard any western leader saying this. But it is better for a multi-religious and multi-racial country like Pakistan to keep the religous matters apart from the government.
You have short memory.** the western leader quoted only few days ago to keep islam out of government was colin powell!** and you was even posting on that very thread!
Germany being “Democratic” country, it should not discriminate against any religion… unless it claims to be a “Christian” country and following “Bible” as code of law etc.
head-scarves are being banned on “individual” basis? not government levels? are you sure?