[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by soul: *
what is secularism according to my learned friend?
is it practice of no religion or
is it freedom to preach and practice all religions...
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more like freedom from religen or to prevent being prisoner of religen.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by soul:
what is secularism according to my learned friend?
Secularism would be "no religion" in governement, and no strings attached.
is it practice of no religion or
is it freedom to preach and practice all religions...
It should be freedom to preach and practice all religions with no government interference/backing, that would include "atheism" (no-religion).
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glee!! i definately....agree with this....its my dream govt....thumz-up Changez!
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more like freedom from religen or to prevent being prisoner of religen.
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Haha rvikz, You are stealing my lines....jest kidding!! dat defination is neat...kudos man.
[quote]
It should be freedom to preach and practice all religions with no government interference/backing, that would include "atheism" (no-religion).
[/quote]
Soul, If you believe that a government should allow the freedom to practice all religions, why don't you practice that here on gupshup where instead of criticizing everyone for their personal religious beliefs, you just accept that each individual has made his or her own choice and wants to live with that? Why do some atheists try to push their own religious beliefs towards others, in the same manner that religious extremists (of all faiths) try to shove their religious beliefs on other people.
soul the fact is, you are looking for loopholes in all the replies. First you said that a hijab means submissing to a man and when a hijabi tells you that it's not so, you don't want to believe it. What makes you think men are not tested in our religion? And just who are you speak for all the women that wear hijabs? Don't you have any respect for a personal choice? You just can't digest the fact that a Muslim woman "wants" to wear a hijab because it's her personal choice. And if you can't even admit that, then there's no point wasting time trying to make you understand.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by soul: *
Shawaiz, you are right. Anti war campaign was an international issue, more to do with anti-americanism. But what was the local issue? Moslem immigrants.
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After 9-11 the oppostion wanted to pass some strict anti-terror laws which was opposed by the ruling coalition. The opposition wanted to pass a contoroversial law which would have allowed the government to deport any person who presumably has a link with an extremist organization, and without having any judical process. The opposition leader Edmund Stoiber may have said at one or two ocassion that he will pass such laws if he get elected, but saying that he ran his campaign on the anti-muslim platform is complete wide of the mark.
His election campaign was based on these points:
You’re right. I do apologize.
Shawaiz
No problem bro we are human we all make mistakes!
nadia, i am discussing, thats a purpose of a discussion forums. Where have i tried to shove my beliefs down your throat? dont i have a right to make a pt here as all rest? my veiws are opposite to what you beleive in...can i help it??
besides, you feel i am comming down heavily on islam....thats coz, only islam gets discussed here!..i have equally strong views about christianity, hinduism et rest.
now if you say you respect all religions....fine. Good for you. But i will talk about them.
Chinese are atheists...but i dont support them...nor do i support their persecution of religions there....including islam.
You all can keep whinning about one babri mosque demolised in India...but do you all even know how many mosques are set ablaze in china...as a on going 'war on terrorism'???....You think i support that?? no i dont.
PS- Btw, atheism and agnostism are not a religions
Soul wrong again
Athiesim is a belief because it a set of incorrect ideas that there is no creator and in most cases they belive we came form nothing like magic small bang happened in universe and abracadabra we all appeared by of chance. And since it is a set of ideas it is a belief an incorrect one at that.
As for china being athiest thats a non starter they have a huge muslim population which stood at 200 million before it was persecuted and killed in xinzhjang provience. Also they have big buddist population.
And secondly the chinese made there leader chairman mao and his communist ideals into a god with statues and pictures of him all over the country. Even communism denies existence of creator yet they made there own leaders into a gods and chairman mao's "little red book" the book which must be followed or else!
As for athiests in general they claim they disbelive fine but why after recent study in west 60% belive in alien abduction and all things abnormal for example films Contact, Lord of The Rings, Harry Potter etc and TV shows such as X files, Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Millennium. These are not clever nor thought provoking, rather they are moronic!
Everybody has instinct of worshipping something greater than themselves, it is a feature of humankind!
Soul, i respectfully disagree. At times you have insulted those who are 'religious', by suggesting they close their eyes and minds when they approach their holy scriptures. You know what i am talking about; in my personal opinion, you have shown quite a lack of mutual respect and tolerance. Other Guppies at times have shown the same intolerance, it is nothing new; my sole point is that if you want others to show the same respect towards your atheist beliefs, then respect is a two-way street. Give some, get some.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by soul: *
now if you say you respect all religions....fine. Good for you. But i will **talk* about them.
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Talk to your heart's content about these issues for all i care, but please don't make passing judgements that all 'religious' people are narrow-minded/intolerant/ignorant.
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You all can keep whinning about one babri mosque demolised in India...but do you all even know how many mosques are set ablaze in china...as a on going 'war on terrorism'???....You think i support that?? no i dont.
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Unfortunately this isn't the political forum so i am not going to get into that.
[QUOTE]
Athiesim is a belief because it a set of incorrect ideas that there is no creator and in most cases they belive we came form nothing like magic small bang happened in universe and abracadabra we all appeared by of chance. And since it is a set of ideas it is a belief an incorrect one at that.
As for china being athiest thats a non starter they have a huge muslim population which stood at 200 million before it was persecuted and killed in xinzhjang provience. Also they have big buddist population.
And secondly the chinese made there leader chairman mao and his communist ideals into a god with statues and pictures of him all over the country. Even communism denies existence of creator yet they made there own leaders into a gods and chairman mao's "little red book" the book which must be followed or else!
As for athiests in general they claim they disbelive fine but why after recent study in west 60% belive in alien abduction and all things abnormal for example films Contact, Lord of The Rings, Harry Potter etc and TV shows such as X files, Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Millennium. These are not clever nor thought provoking, rather they are moronic!
Everybody has instinct of worshipping something greater than themselves, it is a feature of humankind!
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i love your logic....how many atheists you have come across??
atheism is anti religion, child....how can you call it a religion? darn...i am trying to break the cluches...and you are tieing me back!!
btw nadia, i find this above post very complimentary, i am going to save it for you.
Soul
Keep mocking your comments are really coming to a head now you have run out of steam and resorted to insults.
Firstly you have abandoned the Freedom argument when you was prooved wrong, and then you jumped onto democracy when that has failed you resort to attacking islam.
I would have thought you could back up your arguments but obviously not you have failed on 3 occasions.
I have had better debates with athiests than yourself i am afraid, so keep trying.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by soul: *
**btw nadia, i find this above post very complimentary, i am going to save it for you.
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*
Thank you but i don't particularly appreciate being held responsible for other individuals' posts. Incase you didn't notice, i am just one person who can only be responsible for what i write. Do you have any specific comments regarding my post above directed to yourself?
Ak47, you have a company,somewhere in pararell universe, there is another of your ilk,making mockery of himself on our atheist forum.
<< edit >>
you can't do better than him, i bet. But if you have enough steam, i suggest we sweat it out on an free for all site. If you accept it, i will pm you the link. If not, you may crow yourself to glory here.
ps-Even i can write sonnets on islam and its prophet. But my fear is, you might get cardiac arrest reading it....besides it won't be allowed to be posted here.
Sorry - external links to other discussion forums are not allowed. --Samarra
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by soul: *
Whats a Difference between a MOSLEMS and a MUSLIMS....is it detoiratory term?? Explain!
And without any fuss I will switch to 'Muslims'.
'Moslems' is common in east Europe. 'Muslims' is common in sub continent and middle east.
That dose not derail the topic, sir!!
Kindly, please refrain from using CAPS LOCK in your replies. I would really appreciate it. Thank you -- Samarra.
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Moslem just irks me don't know bout others.
Did i say that derails the topic? i am just wondering what is it that you want muslims to say in response to this ban? or rather do you want to discuss something here?if so exactly what?
wise one, 'moslems' is not atall offensive....its just pronounciation in lands other than sub continent...its like mosque and masjid...
still if you find it offensive...i will try to remember to type muslims when i am answering you. i think that should be fine...
besides, i have very strong views on immigration issue....i beleive - 'When in Rome, do as the Romans do'. i had my views on the subj...and i wanted to guage others here...its not about winning or loosing, as few here think....its about discussing..got it??
Minister barred Muslim juror
Minister barred Muslim juror
AP in Paris
Wednesday November 26, 2003
The Guardian
France’s justice minister said yesterday that he personally had decided
to replace a woman juror who wore her Islamic headscarf in court,
saying he wanted to ensure a fair trial.
The replacement on Monday of the Muslim juror marked the first time
that France’s debate on whether women can wear the headscarves in
public buildings had extended to the courtroom.
The justice minister, Dominique Perben, said on Europe-1 radio: “When
in a court, someone outwardly shows a religious, philosophical or
political conviction, that can be a sign that his decision as a juror
will be influenced.”
He added: “It is I who asked for the replacement.”
The move comes amid a debate over the use of Islamic headscarves in
France. Several girls have been expelled from state schools this year
for wearing the scarves, which many argue are a violation of France’s
strict separation of church and state.
The government is considering a law which would explicitly ban
religious symbols in schools and other buildings. A panel on the issue
is to report its findings by the end of the year.
The woman, not identified by officials, was to have been a juror in a
trial in Bobigny, outside Paris, for the attempted murder of two police
officers.
Comment:
Everyones beliefs influence their judgements so why are muslims being singled out and told that you should not allow Islam to influence their opinions? Measures like this will not remove Islam from the minds and hearts of muslims but will show the false and weak nature of secularism
The woman's husband apparently said in an interview that she doesn't normally wear hijab, and only did so in order to escape jury duty.
Muslim bus drivers ousted over headdress
Claiming religious and gender discrimination, four female bus drivers say New York City took away their routes because they refused to cover or stop wearing traditional Islamic headdresses on the job.
Second German state to ban scarf
One teacher’s victory in court prompted the states to legislate
The government in Germany’s biggest state, Bavaria, has prepared a draft law to ban Muslim teachers from wearing headscarves in schools.
A Bavarian cabinet minister said the aim was to protect school pupils against fundamentalist influences.
**
The bill is expected to be passed next year in the regional parliament, which is dominated by the Christian Social Union (CSU) party.
**
Bavaria, after Baden-Wuerttemberg, is the second state to propose a ban.
Bavarian Education Minister Monika Hohlmeier said the headscarf was increasingly used as a political symbol.
**
“With this law, we are defending pupils against a potential fundamentalist influence and are respecting the wishes of the majority of parents,” she said.
Christian and Jewish symbols are not included in the ban.
Ms Hohlmeier said these symbols reflected cultural values.
**
The plans are similar to a draft law unveiled in neighbouring Baden-Wuerttemberg last month.
They follow a controversial ruling in September in Germany’s highest court.
Thirty-one-year-old Fereshta Ludin, who was denied a job in Baden-Wuerttemberg in 1998 because she wore a headscarf in school, went to courts arguing that the German constitution guaranteed her religious freedom.
Court’s suggestion
The federal Constitutional Court ruled by five votes to three that, under current laws, she could wear the scarf. But it also said new laws could be passed by individual states.
Civil rights organisations and groups representing the 3.2 million Muslims living in Germany have strongly criticised the proposed ban.
They argue that the right to wear a headscarf is a question of religious freedom.
A group of prominent German women published an appeal last week not to ban Muslim headscarves.
**
The women, including the government’s integration advisor Marieluise Beck, argued that the ban might in fact set back efforts to emancipate Muslim women, by effectively keeping them from participating in public life.
**
nice going by the liberal and civilized west. by banning headscarfs, they are pratically shunning all muslim women from obtaining any knd of job. for them there won’t be any future without compromising the integrity and values of their religion.