"fun" in arrange marriages..

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81

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *
Anyway, as I mentioned in my post, most of the people there are illitrate and poor. I don't think your mind is open other wise you would have understood the problem. If you have some education or money does not make you superior. You have a quality that should be invested in the society.

Everyone likes to be known as noble in their family and society. Western, Eastern any place. About sacrifice or whatever you mentioned my answer is same as above (Poor no Education...They don't do it intentionally).

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WHOA WHOA WHOA!!! so you are saying that WE are not open minded?!?! i think people whose family comes before their biraadri are more open minded than people who marry their kids to someone just to elevate their level and please other people rather than pleasing their kids, what do you think? yes men and women are asked three times before they are married, and they have the right to refuse. but you know what, then their parents start getting emotional and start begging them that they should accept this marriage and everything will be fine and bla bla bla. or else, moms threaten that they won't forgive the "doodh ki 32 dhaaren (their milk)". in that situation, yes you have to listen to your parents. so don't you think this is not fair, to threaten and to beg? more after your reply.

82

Parents don't have any unconditional support. It is the girl who backed down.

Ok you mentioned in your post that there are some woman who are educated but, they back down on when their parents tell them too. Their parents think that it is right for her to marry that guy. If the girl don't think like that, she should behave like an educated woman and argue with her parents. Now you'll talk about that she'll be left alone and singled out. Well, education teaches us to believe in something and be confident about what and where you stand. She is not doing that here, what is the use of that education. If she gets supress right here, she'll get supress everywhere and next thing you know she is the house wife who cooks food and gets pregnant all the time.

Parents want good for their kids, yes they don't know what is going to make them happy. No one knows only you know how to make yourself happy and that is your responsibility.

83

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *
Parents don't have any unconditional support. It is the girl who backed down.

Ok you mentioned in your post that there are some woman who are educated but, they back down on when their parents tell them too. Their parents think that it is right for her to marry that guy. If the girl don't think like that, she should behave like an educated woman and argue with her parents. Now you'll talk about that she'll be left alone and singled out. Well, education teaches us to believe in something and be confident about what and where you stand. She is not doing that here, what is the use of that education. If she gets supress right here, she'll get supress everywhere and next thing you know she is the house wife who cooks food and gets pregnant all the time.

Parents want good for their kids, yes they don't know what is going to make them happy. No one knows only you know how to make yourself happy and that is your responsibility.
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aaaahhhhhhh........finally.......so you agree it is the girl's fault also. she should argue and tell them who she likes, right?

84

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *
Parents don't have any unconditional support. It is the girl who backed down.

Ok you mentioned in your post that there are some woman who are educated but, they back down on when their parents tell them too. Their parents think that it is right for her to marry that guy. If the girl don't think like that, she should behave like an educated woman and argue with her parents. Now you'll talk about that she'll be left alone and singled out. Well, education teaches us to believe in something and be confident about what and where you stand. She is not doing that here, what is the use of that education. If she gets supress right here, she'll get supress everywhere and next thing you know she is the house wife who cooks food and gets pregnant all the time.

Parents want good for their kids, yes they don't know what is going to make them happy. No one knows only you know how to make yourself happy and that is your responsibility.
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Ofcourse parents do have unconditional support, look at the comments that are posted on this very thread....

If there is an issue which involves parents and their children, try bringing that issue up in front of others, you'll find people talking in favor of the parents regardless of them being right or wrong.... and parents are aware of this and they take unjust advantage of this unconditional support and they do whatever they feel like doing and then when things mess up, they do not even accept that they were wrong, they'll shift the blame on taqdeer and qismat...

You yourself are saying that the parents do not know what is best for their children and it is the person him/her self who knows what is best for their own self, then why is it that the whole society supports the parents?

In our society the success of any marriage depends more on the parents than it does on the couple...

85

I am not giving unconditional support to parents. All I am saying is that parents want good for their kids. You are responsible to make your self happy. If you think that what your parent choice is wrong for you, you should argue and tell them about your choice. Do I make myself clear?

If parents are wrong you should argue. If you don't then you are the one who is backing down.

No Shikra I am not blaming anyone. And yes you are right she should argue and tell them who she likes.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Different: *

You yourself are saying that the parents do not know what is best for their children
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I said parents want good for their kids. There is big difference in these two sentences.

86

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *
I am not giving unconditional support to parents. All I am saying is that parents want good for their kids. You are responsible to make your self happy. If you think that what your parent choice is wrong for you, you should argue and tell them about your choice. Do I make myself clear?

If parents are wrong you should argue. If you don't then you are the one who is backing down.

No Shikra I am not blaming anyone. And yes you are right she should argue and tell them who she likes.

I said parents want good for their kids. There is big difference in these two sentences.
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Yes you are giving unconditional support to parents...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *
Whatever your parents do, do not hate them. Love them, they are the one you should die for.
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *
I said parents want good for their kids.
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You are not willing to accept that at times parents do care much about pleasing their biradri members intentionally rather than caring for their child. You simply keep on saying that

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *
"All I am saying is that parents want good for their kids."
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Isn't this unconditional support on your part???

When most people in our society think in the way you think and believe in things that you believe in, how can we expect a helpless girl to get anything by arguing with her parents? Be honest to yourself, look how every one is responsible for ruining innocent lives in our society... Only because of the unconditional support to the parents....

Let me refer to some of your posts...

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *
I am saying that most of the women in our society can not live independently, that is the reason why they have to sacrifice. Their parents have to make these choices because they want their girl to be married in a family that is full with money.

In our society money takes over the choice of girl.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *
I know in arrange marriages most of the time girl has to sacrifice. It is just because she can not take care of her self. She is not independent enough. Other wise, if she was don't you think her parents would allow her to do anything she wants?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *
The thing is Economic stability of a society. Our society is poor, that's why they want their children not to suffer. That's why they make these kinds of hard choices.

When the economic problem will be solved. This Arrange marriage problem will be solved too.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *
I know money can not solve every problem but, yes it can solve some problems. Economic stability is not an excuse.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *
Look the Biradri that you are talking about is very complex. You'll find some witty people and some not. You probablly have seen in your family there'll be some of your grand parents who never had any education. They get respect and also their opinions because they are older than us. More smart than us....( I seriously have no idea about that).

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *
Our society lacks economic stability and education. Most of the people over there are illitrate. Their minds are not so open like yours.

Just because they are poor and uneducated is not a good reason to blame them. It is not like they do it intensionally.

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *
Everyone likes to be known as noble in their family and society. Western, Eastern any place. About sacrifice or whatever you mentioned my answer is same as above (Poor no Education...They don't do it intentionally).

Whatever your parents do, do not hate them. Love them, they are the one you should die for.

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Now compare all what you mentioned above with this that you mentioned below, after accepting that in our society the girl is helpless and that there is nothing much that she can do, but all of a sudden in the post below you completely change your views....

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *
Ok you mentioned in your post that there are some woman who are educated but, they back down on when their parents tell them too. Their parents think that it is right for her to marry that guy. If the girl don't think like that, she should behave like an educated woman and argue with her parents. Now you'll talk about that she'll be left alone and singled out. Well, education teaches us to believe in something and be confident about what and where you stand. She is not doing that here, what is the use of that education. If she gets supress right here, she'll get supress everywhere and next thing you know she is the house wife who cooks food and gets pregnant all the time.

Parents want good for their kids, yes they don't know what is going to make them happy. No one knows only you know how to make yourself happy and that is your responsibility.

[/QUOTE]

You suggest that one should be willing to die for his/her parents since they always want good for you, but then you suggest arguing with parents when they are wrong.... You are contradicting your own self, you kept on defending the parents point of view and you justified everything that they do, but then you are now admitting that it is possible that the parents can be wrong, and that one should argue with his/her parents if he/she doesn't argue then it is also his/her fault?? Have you forgotten that most children respect their parents and they seldom argue with their parents out of respect for them, is it still the children's fault that they repsect their parents so much that they are willing to lose their dignity and honor to please their parents....

All I want you to tell me how effective will the girl's argument be if almost the whole society supports the parents regardless of them being right or wrong? I have referred to your statements because you know what they mean better.... Be honest to yourself....

87

arey yaar zig zag maan bhi jaao na.

in one post you agree with what we are trying to say, but in the next post, you negate your own post by a very good transition.

88

I am not giving any kind of unconditional support to parents (How many times do I have to tell you that?). When I talk about 'parents thinking good for their kids' or 'to die for them' it is not a support. It is to say you have to love and respect your parents and if you want to do an argument do it. I have never said in any of my previous posts that one should not argue with their parents.

About changing views or whatever you are trying to proof here is baseless.

When you talk about parents intentionally ruining their kids life, from parents the general statement goes to all of parents in our society. This is not true. What I meant was because of our society being poor and illitrate these parents who itself being married through arrange marriage think that the only way out is how they got married. When you have education you see some options and your mind opens.

You mixed all of my post regarding society being poor and illitrate to an explanation of an educated girl not fighting for her right. This is wrong.

Different let me tell you one more time. The marriage can only be successful via mutual respect.

Some of the people living in our society are poor and uneducated, this results in very little and no options for them. They take these measures in which the girl sacrifices most of the time. To solve this problem one should not blame the poor parents or their kids (including the girl) but, instead try to bring economic stability and education in the society. This education will open their minds and bring opportunity for them in their life.

89

:hula: ok, trophy tumhari ho gayi zig-zag :hula:

lol…what do you think different, should we give up thinking of zig zag as :bukbuk: lol…or should we keep trying to explain our point again and again :confused:

90

I think I'll try one more time...!

91

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *
I am not giving any kind of unconditional support to parents (How many times do I have to tell you that?). When I talk about 'parents thinking good for their kids' or 'to die for them' it is not a support. It is to say you have to love and respect your parents and if you want to do an argument do it. I have never said in any of my previous posts that one should not argue with their parents.

About changing views or whatever you are trying to proof here is baseless.

When you talk about parents intentionally ruining their kids life, from parents the general statement goes to all of parents in our society. This is not true. What I meant was because of our society being poor and illitrate these parents who itself being married through arrange marriage think that the only way out is how they got married. When you have education you see some options and your mind opens.

You mixed all of my post regarding society being poor and illitrate to an explanation of an educated girl not fighting for her right. This is wrong.

Different let me tell you one more time. The marriage can only be successful via mutual respect.

Some of the people living in our society are poor and uneducated, this results in very little and no options for them. They take these measures in which the girl sacrifices most of the time. To solve this problem one should not blame the poor parents or their kids (including the girl) but, instead try to bring economic stability and education in the society. This education will open their minds and bring opportunity for them in their life.
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You are the one who made the discussion general in the first place, pakbeast came up with a scenario and I gave my opinion based on that scenario....

anyways. then you came up with another statement saying that parents don't do anything bad intentionally and that they always think good about their children and so on and so forth, but let me ask you, isn't this a general statement too? which means that all parents are like this? You tell me the difference...., you yourself have now admitted that parents can be wrong and one should argue with them, but you also know that in our society most of the people think like you do..., they are not willing to accept that parents can get selfish too, people in our society always support the parents regardless and this is what makes it difficult for a girl to win an argument, because the whole society supports the parents unconditionally!!!

So if parents take unjust advantage of this unconditional support, they are the one's who are wrong... parents know that there is nothing much their daughter can do, they know her limits and this is what is the root cause of the problem!! Parents are human beings too, and they can make mistakes, they can follow their own desires, but in our society it is believed that parents do not have their own desires, this is a wrong belief, it has to be changed, if it is not changed soon, then our socety will be worse than all the societies that exist today!!

About bringing economic stability and education, all this is only possible when a human being is at peace at home, and this is only possible when he has good relations with his wife and children, and this is only possible when your marriage is working fine.... this is why we say that marriage is the foundation of the society... if the foundation is weak how can we expect a lasting building?

You can't bring economic stability or education if the most critical decision in our life is made to please members of the biradri or for financial reasons, you kill the person alive when you do this to him/her... you can't bring these changes when you are married to a person who is twice your age, who doesn't understand where you are coming from, like I said marriages are more like a business transaction in our society. why would you have interest in life?

Anyways I don't want to get into a long debate... I wanted to add one thing which I've heard many people saying, that "marriage is not a union of a boy or girl, rather it is a union/merger of two families"...., and this is why the parents worry about the biradri, cuz they have to show their face in the biradri with pride... as long as we have these belief's in the masses, what changes can we expect? When no one cares whether the boy and girl are compatible with each other, all they care about the two families being compatible with each other!!! Truly in our society if parents want the marriage to be a success then, it is a success, if they don't, it is never a success...

With regards to mutual respect...., I mentioned this before, it is not possible to respect someone when you know that you are married to him/her because of financial reasons and/or pleasing the biradri and/or keeping up with a long promise (made before the birth of the couple)!! The only way you can respect each other is when you are married to the person when there is no material interests involved...

92

correct. people care more about biraadri. the first thing that's asked from a boy or a girl when they tell their parents that they like someone is: uski zaat kia hai? (which subcaste does he belong to?)......rather, the question should be: what does he do? or what's his/her age? or does he/she really like you? or do they belong to a good profession (they could be thieves or murderers or who knows what) etc etc etc. but the first thing that comes out of most people's mouth is, like i said before, do they belong to the same subcaste we do?

waisay different, pakbeast is me ;)

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[QUOTE]
people care more about biraadri. the first thing that's asked from a boy or a girl when they tell their parents that they like someone is: uski zaat kia hai? (which subcaste does he belong to?)
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[QUOTE]
I mentioned this before, it is not possible to respect someone when you know that you are married to him/her because of financial reasons and/or pleasing the biradri and/or keeping up with a long promise (made before the birth of the couple)!! The only way you can respect each other is when you are married to the person when there is no material interests involved...
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You guys are just talking about Biradri. Biradri people are just like people you see everyday. They'll say all kinds of things. When it comes to marriage it is not Biradri it is you and if no one is thinking about your needs you should think about them. This is because you are going to spend your whole life with that guy/girl not them.

They think about you or not think about you. They are trying to ruin your life intensionally not intensionally, that is not the question. When it comes to marriage the question is are you going to be happy? You know that answer and you should do something about it.

Hey, I don't need any trophy...

94

[QUOTE]
then you came up with another statement saying that parents don't do anything bad intentionally and that they always think good about their children and so on and so forth, but let me ask you, isn't this a general statement too? which means that all parents are like this? You tell me the difference...., you yourself have now admitted that parents can be wrong and one should argue with them, but you also know that in our society most of the people think like you do..., they are not willing to accept that parents can get selfish too, people in our society always support the parents regardless and this is what makes it difficult for a girl to win an argument, because the whole society supports the parents unconditionally!!!

So if parents take unjust advantage of this unconditional support, they are the one's who are wrong... parents know that there is nothing much their daughter can do, they know her limits and this is what is the root cause of the problem!! Parents are human beings too, and they can make mistakes, they can follow their own desires, but in our society it is believed that parents do not have their own desires, this is a wrong belief, it has to be changed, if it is not changed soon, then our socety will be worse than all the societies that exist today!!

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Don't call our society the worst society that exist today. If you are soo un happy with it then change your own society.

Parents intensionally trying to ruin their kids life etc etc. This exist in all societies. The difference is that kids in the other societies take a moment and argue with their parents. Also, they make a decision and stand by it.

95

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *

Don't call our society the worst society that exist today. If you are soo un happy with it then change your own society.

Parents intensionally trying to ruin their kids life etc etc. This exist in all societies. The difference is that kids in the other societies take a moment and argue with their parents. Also, they make a decision and stand by it.
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This is what i said "in our society it is believed that parents do not have their own desires, this is a wrong belief, it has to be changed, **if it is not changed soon, then **our socety will be worse than all the societies that exist today!! "

Anyways.. with reference to what you mentioned about kids in other societies sticking to their decision... In our society if at all a girl or boy sticks to his/her decision, his/her whole family will abandon them.... the couple is looked down upon by almost everyone, since it is considered a sin to go against the wishes of the parents which actually is what the whole biradri wants!

You can't deny the influence of biradri on parents....

96

yes, exactly, you CAN NOT deny the influence of biradri on parents.

and from the post:

i am confused :confused: that’s what i was tyring to say in earlier posts and you were telliing us to die for your parents no matter what and etc. etc. etc.

97

Yes, I did say that but I also mentioned to argue with your parents if you think it is necessary.

98

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Different: *

This is what i said "in our society it is believed that parents do not have their own desires, this is a wrong belief, it has to be changed, **if it is not changed soon, then **our socety will be worse than all the societies that exist today!! "
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Oh...so you meant it is not worst but, it is on the way like I say in second or third position.

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Anyways.. with reference to what you mentioned about kids in other societies sticking to their decision... In our society if at all a girl or boy sticks to his/her decision, his/her whole family will abandon them.... the couple is looked down upon by almost everyone, since it is considered a sin to go against the wishes of the parents which actually is what the whole biradri wants!

You can't deny the influence of biradri on parents....
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Well, as I mentioned that these biradri people will like you now and hate you next day. They are just people, they'll say all kinds of things.

Let me explain you one more time. When parents or biradri say to their kids that marry this boy/girl because they've got money and you'll be happy. What they mean that I believe with money you'll be happy and your kids will go to good school. You'll never have to worry about anything. I think it will do good for you. As I mentioned in my previous post that They want good for their kids but, don't know what is going to make them happy. Only you know that and you should fight for that. If they abandon you, well when you'll argue you'll know who cares about you and who does not. Why you would like to live with someone who does not even care about you?

99

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Zig~Zag: *

Oh...so you meant it is not worst but, it is on the way like I say in second or third position.

Well, as I mentioned that these biradri people will like you now and hate you next day. They are just people, they'll say all kinds of things.

Let me explain you one more time. When parents or biradri say to their kids that marry this boy/girl because they've got money and you'll be happy. What they mean that I believe with money you'll be happy and your kids will go to good school. You'll never have to worry about anything. I think it will do good for you. As I mentioned in my previous post that They want good for their kids but, don't know what is going to make them happy. Only you know that and you should fight for that. If they abandon you, well when you'll argue you'll know who cares about you and who does not. Why you would like to live with someone who does not even care about you?
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Parents DO care about what the members of their biradri say!! That's the only think parents are concerned about, and when you argue with your parents, all your brothers, sisters, cousins, aunties, uncles put pressure on you to give in to the wishes of your parents, since it is a sin to displease your parents!!!

If a boy or a girl knows what is going to make him happy, nobody believes in him or her, everyone says that you are a child you can't make the right decision and your parents know you better, they are the one's who know what is best for you so don't hurt them in this age...

You know what happens in our society, you are only try to support the parents unconditionally, go ahead, its people like yourself who are the root cause of this problem that we face in our society... people who are not willing to change, people who are not willing to accept the truth, people who are unable to assimilate that "even parents are human beings and can make mistakes", people who shall always give unconditional support to parents regardless of them being right or wrong!

Money is the solution to all problems.... if this is what parents believe in, what else do you expect from them?

100

now before we go into more discussions, a few questions:

zig zag, are you from pakistan or are you american? from your posts, i suppose you are from pakistan and are you still there? if not, how long did you live there? have you seen any examples that justify your explanations?

cuz i don't think you've lived there long enough and seen these problems that different just mentioned above. i've seen them.