Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

Well, the US does have anti slander laws, but they are applied in a very specific ways, I dont know the intricacies of the law so I wont comment. As far as insulting your mother, first you would ask them to stop, and if they are reasonable they will stop. If they dont stop, its better to ignore them. Because what are you going to do, fight them, shoot them? What if you fight the person slandering you mother, and then another one stands up who is equally offensive. Then you fight that person, then another stands up... How long are you going to fight? At some point, if you have any akul, you will say this is not worth it.

Who would be happy about anyone slandering anyone? But what the hell are you going to do? If you silence one idiot, another will start.. It will never end. So a smart person would learn to ignore stupid people not engage with them.

You and I have very different concepts of honor. You would fight anyone who looks at you the wrong way. I would agree with Islam, and Islam teaches us that the best of us are those who control our anger and walk away from conflict. If the prophet could forgive people for throwing garbage on him, im sure you can be just as forgiving.

Sometimes silence is louder then words. The more you engage with stupid people, the more you fuel them.

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

As so often happens during debates with the great one,I am left speechless. And with a headache to boot! May I please borrow the hand slapping monicker?

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

Head slapping monicker ^

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

[mod]The thread cleaned, guys continue with the debate staying on topic and without resorting to name calling and attacking each other.[/mod]

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

In islam the prophet(saw) forgive many people for insulting him that is correct.

but today without the prophet(saw) it is duty of the muslims to protect his honour and staying silent is not an option for them on this issue which is a red line for the muslims.

and you did not answer the question if your mother was insulted would you stay silent or would you do something about it?

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

You have to judge every situation independantly. Not every situation requires loud screaming and physical violence. If you approach every situation the same way you will lose. If you study the history of Islam, you will realize that the prophet choose to approach every situation in a manner befitting it. Where you have to stay silent, its best to stay silent. Where you should speak up you should speak up. Where you should fight you should fight. Where you should forgive, forgive and where you should seek peace, then seek peace. But each situation is different and each response is different. You cannot blindly assume that violence will work. Approaching every situation with aggression is foolishness, its not Jihad, and it is not following the path of Islam or her prophet. The situation with the cartoon is a situation in which not responding is wiser, because responding will not help you or your cause. This is very common sense.

Your reference to situation where someone insults your mother is a similar situation. I cant give you a defenitive answer because you must asses the situation. Who is it that is smearing you? What if its someone who is mentally disabled,or perhaps drunk or on drugs. What will be the consequences of you attacking this person? What if that person has a weapon and you are unarmed? What if one of you is killed and you are arrested? Either way, what if you are dead or in prison? Who will take care of your family?

Your honor in this case is not really honor. If your actions result in more problems for our family, perhaps you are dead and they are in misery without you, then your honor is an illusion. Your honor is at the cost of their happiness. So if you sacrifice yourself, for some vague notion of honor, knowing your actions will result in misery for those you seek to "honor," then how is that honorable? To me its stupidity. The suicide bombers go in with similar notions of misplaced "honor" and all they do is make life miserable for the families of those they kill and their own, yet they themselves selfishly believe they are gaining paradise!

Leave the red lines to Netenyahu. A reasonable person and reasonable Muslim will not start protesting and attacking others blindly. Do you think the people who protested and the ones who were violent have upheld the honor of the prophet? After all this, do you think the Westerners have understood your anger? Absolutel not. All this protest ad violence have brought more hate for Islam and I can guarnatee you this wil happen again. And then we will be having this same debate with me telling you that protesting is counter prodctive and you telling me you safe guarding the honor of the prophet.

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

firstly the whole basis of your essay is wrong to assume we want to shout or destroy property as has happened nobody is asking for shouting this won't achive anything, the duty of muslims is to retaliate in financial and poltical manner. This means put pressure to get sanctions against the United States and France and complete shut down of their embassies this is the correct poltical way to deal with any beliggerant state if we had sincere state that actually cared for the affairs of the muslims this would have already happened.

The director of the nasty video about prophet (saw)is neither insane or disabled according to US statements he has also been convicted of bank fraud and illegal drugs distribution. I asked you if someone insulted your mother what would you do an you said what if they disbaled or mentally disturbed you want to shift the question but never answer it.

If someone did that against your mother you would'nt do anything just admit it.

this is why muslims can never accept freedom to insult whoever you like, especially when people insult our beloved prophet(saw)

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

The point Rommel saab, is to illustrate the fact that there are some situations that deserve protest, others that deserve physical fights, others deserve intellectual debates, and still others that deserve no response at all.

Think of it like a general in an army. You could attack the enemy head on if the situation is in your favor, you could also commit to a strategy in which use guerrilla tactics, or perhaps you use propaganda to weaken the enemy, you may even retreat in order to fight again later. Whatever your response, it must be taken with your situation in mind. Your situation must dictate your response. A general who fights without calculating his position, is bound to fail. Similar with a situation with the video. How should we respond to such an affront?

This situation with the video is such a situation where a response is not warranted. You do not gain anything by responding. In this case, not responding is smarter tactic. Responding has actually caused MORE damage not less. And I dont mean violent response, i mean any response at all. Its useless.

The situation with the govt not boycotting or sanctioning the west.. The Govts you are speaking off are not stupid. They are mature enough to know how the world works. They know how the US works. They know that they cannot start a war over every movie some idiot in the US or somewhere else decides to make.

The person who made the video is an idiot. He is not worth responding too... When you respond to stupid people, you make yourself look as stupid as they are. And that is what has happened with the protest to the video.

As far as the mother comment, you said what if they SAY something insulting, you did not say anything about DOING... Doing means PHYSICAL harm. That is different. Then of course yuu must defend. As far as verbal abuse goes, that again depends on the situation. You cant simply attack people, that is stupidity. Try to understand this simple point. YOU MUST respond in accordance to the situation. Your situation dictates your response. So if the person who is VERBALLY attacking your mother is mentally disabled, or you know they have a weapon and you do not, you dont simply attack. Understanding this point reqires some degree of maturity which i dont think you have yet. You sound like a teenager, who hasnt gone very far in the world.

Defense of the prophet can be through many different means. Sometimes, you defend the prophet by letting barking dogs bark. In responding to this situation, Muslims have actually harmed the reputation of the prophet and harmed image of Islam, not helped it. This is very simple common sense things. Not every situations requires hitting people over the head. Just look to your beloved prophet (saw) for guidance, why listen to me. When he could have fought and argued, he choose to remain silent and not utter a word. If in his wisdom he understood that not every situation requires a response, why do you not understand that silence in this case would have been better?

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

So you finally admit you would defend your mother if she was attacked in digusting manner like the prophet(saw) so why apply double standards when people are angry against the attacks on muhammad(saw) ???

The muslim world cannot accept freedom to insult this is very simple concept to understand even to someone with immaturity like yourself.

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

:smack:

Rommel mia, there is a difference between PHYSICAL attack and a VERBAL attack… Physical attack you must defend, verbal attack you can ignore. Is there a communication problem here? I mean, should I learn Pushto for your sake?

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

this is perfect example when someone is avoiding to answer a simple question what difference if it is verbal or physical i am asking in english never mentioned any word in pukhtoon.

Instead of flip floppin its better to end the discussion with you because you cannot even give simple answer to simple question.

As for the muslims this incident is example of why we will never accept freedom to insult anyone even the non muslims will be protected from this kind of disgusting abuse!

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

It's a pity that people cannot grasp the concept of "free speech". And the word "offensive" should be banned from any legislature as being too vague and misleading.
How hard is it to comprehend, really? You cannot call for death or violence against LIVING PEOPLE. You can say anything you want against dead people, fictional characters, ideas, books or any other inanimate objects. Is it so hard to grasp? People, what's wrong with you?

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.


You definition allows me to state that Talmud is the most despicable book and a disgrace to humanity by calling all non-jewish people as animals in the body of humans created to serve Jews. What a shame!

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

^^ it allows you to state that and the repercussion is that people might think you to be a madcap

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

If there is repercussion, then, it's not freedom of speech. This is what everybody is trying to "educate" muslims about. LOL

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

You can say anything you wish about Talmud, or any other book. If your statements are wrong, or at least debatable, people who care will probably debate with you. But you are free to express your opinion.

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.


Will you feel offended if I had uttered similar words about your parents?

just asking hypothetically, I am not saying I will. I will rather have utmost respect for them knowing that they are older in age than me. :)

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

Yes, it certainly allows you to say that. If you are confortable standing behind that statement...

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

The fundamental rule of freedom of speech is not if one is comfortable standing behind his statement but the target audience are told that no one has a right to be offended by it.

Re: Freedom of speech & Western hypocrisy.

voltaire expressed it best mera bhai.

"I dont agree with what you have to say, but will defend to the death your right to say it.."