**Keep your filthy thoughts to yourself, otherwise you'll be answering to me!
Sentinel.
**
Muni,
I hold middle ground in this discussion (of what I understand of this discussion anyway). I don't consider faith based totally on blind assumptions and I don't consider it something based totally on facts. I believe facts only take you so far, the rest is your faith!
It is a fact that you cannot see your soul. But does that single fact constitute that soul does not exist? No. As there are other facts that point to the direction that you do have soul. Its your faith that sways your vote.
Similarly, a scientist who only believes in fact cannot explain why you had a true dream the other day. As his science cannot explain it, though you have seen it & you believe it!
Husnain, I hope that answers your question too.
Chaltahai
I've taken up your request and have bored myself by reading every word on the thread. I doubt if I've taken most of the arguments and counter arguments seriously, but am now aware of your request for facts.
I believe you asked Hasnain to prove that the Qur'aan was a Divine Revelation without using the Qur'aan as it's witness.
In other words you want external sources, regardless of what they are, to testify on the Qur'aans Divineship!!
Ok, if it makes you happy then so be it.
The first issue is authenticity. Purity of text is quite vital to the whole spirit of "fund". This is because once a text has shown to have been corrupted and altered in order to make it comply with doctrinal or political expediencies, and if there is no reliable means to distinguish the corrupt from the pure, then there is not one passage of that text that cannot be called into question.
This is not so easy with a pure and preserved text. This is well understood by the Christians and Jews. If it is not the "Word of God", then what real value does it posses as guidance, except as a collection of wisdom? Few serious scholars from Islam's opponents, have tried to dispute the Qur'an's historical and Divine authenticity .
However, maybe you see yourself as a worthy learned scholar.
Indeed it would be a pointless exercise, since anyone who cares to take a trip to Tashkent (in the former Soviet Union) will find there a complete copy of the Qur'an written by one of the Prophet's scribes, Zayed ibn Thabit, upon the order of the first Caliph Abu Bakr within two years of the Prophet's death.
One can take any copy of any Qur'aan, from any mosque anywhere in the world and compare it with the mushaf of Zayed, and find it exactly the same - WORD for WORD.
Furthermore Arabic, the language of the Qur'an, is a living language, and the Book has always been in the hands of the people - not merely the domain of a select few.
This shows you that the language and text is preserved. We've used unilateral literacy collaberation methods of comparison here and not some exclusive Islamic technique!!
Secondly, the Arabs at the time of Revelation, had no civilization to speak of - no magnificent roads or public buildings, nor scientific or medical institutions. In fact, they lived a most primitive existence. There was one thing in which they excelled - that was their language. They were extremely found of poetry, and prided themselves in their poetic abilities.
(Eastern and Western History books, which were manmade by the way, and had nothing to do with the Qur'aan tell us this about the current climate at that time!)
The period of Revelation was at time when the Arabs were at the peak of their linguistic abilities!
Poetry in Arabic falls into sixteen different "Bihar" (rhythmic forms), and other than that they have the speech of soothsayers, rhyming prose, and normal speech.
These are the sixteen Al-Bihar (literally "Seas", so called because of the way the poem moves, according to its rhythmic patterns): At-Tawil, al-Bassit, al-Waafir, al-Kaamil, ar-Rajs, al-Khafeef, al-Hazaj, al-Muttakarib, al-Munsarih, al-Muktatab, al-Muktadarak, al-Madeed, al-Mujtath, al-Ramel, al-Khabab.
Does the Qur'aan fall into any one of the sixteen Al-Bihars?
You can take the liberty and tell us!
And then you can tell us why?
Now that the text issues have been dealt with, let's move on.
Thirdly, the period of revelation took 23 years to complete. During this period, the Messenger underwent at least 3 wars, assassination attempts, bereavements in the household and numerous treaty breaches. Human nature dictates that during this period and concourse of events, at least ONE linguistic, grammar, scriptual or technichal error should of occured!!!
But it did not!!!!!
Why??
Once again, you can enlighten us!
Fourthly, even though the Qur'aan was revealed in the Arabic language, it does not address the Arabs alone in whose language it was revealed. It speaks to the whole of mankind as a human being using the term 'man'.
Why would a man living 1400 years ago be concerned about all of mankind instead of a select few members of his household?
Fifthly, could any person of the sixth century C.E. utter such scientific truths as the Qur'an contains?
Could he describe the evolution of the embryo inside the uterus so
accurately as we find it in modern science?
How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits, in the whole of Arabic literature? How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?
Sixthly, the Qur'aan mentions movements of the heavenly bodies, sex in plants, creation of human life, physical science, geographic facts, importance of water, honey and ant, scientific development in the age of David and Solomon, travel, light and the end of Universe amongst other things.
Science as a 'form' and not a 'muslim thang' perspective was used to determine the accuracy of the Qur'aans scientific statements!!
Seventhly, the Quraanic structure concerning ayats, placement of letters of the Arabic alphabet etc in some Surahs are still a mathematical mystery! We have used Mathematics, which again is not a sole Islamic franchise to determine such FACTS!
Eighthly, I think I'll stop for now and let you digest some of the info.
So far we've used Literature, Science, Mathematics and History to fulfill your whims.
Life would be a lot easier for you, if you simply 'accept details of the car from it's inventor, rather than from it's driver'!!
But I suppose that's the difference between you and me.
Sholay, I didn't really want to say this as I don't really believe that myself but let me play the devil's advocate:
How do you know for sure that Mohammad did not add stuff on his own or during when Quran was being compiled some else didn't before that copy you mentioned was completed?
How does some scientific facts that seems to be described in Quran prove rest of the Quran? Aren't you making assumption (essentially your faith) that since some of the stuff is "true" rest of it is true too and there is in fact life after death and 72 hoors etc? How about there are more than one Allah theory? May be there were two three gods and they created the universe and all and then revealed the Quran to Mohammad and planned that "let's tell the humans that there is only one god" for whatever reasons. What if Allah lied? He is just playing around? Keep us busy for his own ticks? How do you know for sure that is not the case? There is only one way and that is that you have faith in His word.
This is not the end of it, there could be hundreds and thousands of other assumptions that could be made about so many things in religion that you would have no way of proving as true except for you faith alone, or the rehtoric that "since some linguistic professors proved that no human can produce such a text, it's divine and since it's divine, EVERYTHING it says is divine and true".
See the point of all of the above is that there are always be some things that you can prove as facts and others that you have to solely depend on your faith as you cannot "prove" it to them by any other manner. Logic and reason are two edges of the same swords - they can be applied to make believe anything beyond physical reality or undeniable, recurring phenomenon.
The point of the whole discussion was not that Quran is not authentic or there is no Allah. Nobody is trying to prove that, or at least I'm not. The point was that you cannot seperate faith from religion and your faith is not completely based on facts, and it is not superior to any other faith that somebody else follows. Both faiths are equally respectable.
Roman, I am sorry it is you who is missing the point and missing it badly. The statements you make, make perfect sense when you are sitting on the secular fence. If you are a muslim and believe in the Quran then the Quran explicitly tells you that Islam is the best and muslims are to guide humanity. So you cannot ask muslims to agree with you that all faiths are OK and acceptable. They are not muslims anylonger for they then no longer believe in the Quran. I am sorry but there is no flexibility or give there.
I am sure that such a clear command that a faith is the best has NOT been made or claimed by the Bible, or Dhammpada, or the Vedas, etc. Correct me if I am wrong.
Intellectual integerity requires facing things as they are and not as it would be nice to have them.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by OldLahori: *
Roman, If you are a muslim and believe in the Quran then the Quran explicitly tells you that Islam is the best and muslims are to guide humanity. So you cannot ask muslims to agree with you that all faiths are OK and acceptable. They are not muslims anylonger for they then no longer believe in the Quran. I am sorry but there is no flexibility or give there.
[/QUOTE]
What is the difference between a Muslim who believes that Islam should guide humanity and a Christian who believes that they are to show the way? You are making excuses for Muslims to be biased and intolerant. What if everyone in the world was as inflexible and self righteous as you are giving Muslims the right to be?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
What is the difference between a Muslim who believes that Islam should guide humanity and a Christian who believes that they are to show the way? You are making excuses for Muslims to be biased and intolerant. What if everyone in the world was as inflexible and self righteous as you are giving Muslims the right to be?
[/QUOTE]
I am not giving anyone any rights. I cannot. I am merely trying to state "facts" as I know them to be. I am not a scholar and hence I will be quite happy if some one knowledgeable comes up and tells me that I am wrong. When a Christian says he is to show the way, he cannot cite a verse from the bible that says he is to do so. He has merely been instructed to go forth and share the good tidings. He has not been charged to implement the kindom on earth. Unto Ceasers what is Ceasers etc. When a Muslim goes forth he does so because there is an explicit command to him from Allah as stated in the Quran, and that he as part of the muslim nation has been charged to be the guide of humanity. You cannot ask a Muslim to deny the Quran and stay a muslim. Now you can attempt to "reinterpret" the verses to be more acceptable, but 1) they are stated quite clearly and unambiguously; as the Quran says It is the book in which there is no doubt and 2) there is a lot of commentry available interpreting the Quran already, which would need to be either ignored or shown to be wrong. I see the above as given. Now you may discuss what consequences follow from that and whether those consequences are good for muslims and the others or not. But that is a different matter.
Roman
I have noted your points and believe you have the right to make your own assessments. You ware exercising the best gift of all. CHOICE.
I was merely answering a request in laymans terms, that Chatahai posted.
For me however, Faith, Fact and Religion all go hand in hand.
I do believe that just because you cannot prove something, it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. For example, most of Science is all based on Theory! But we all tend to take the subject at University and indulge in the profession.
100 years from now, when most of us are gone, generations will be reliant on History in order to determine our prior existence. Some of it will be proven and some of it will not. But people will believe. Not all, but many.
There is a very thin line between Faith and Fact. If you cannot prove something by physically showing it's existence, then the article of faith kicks in. This is measured by logic, reason, common sense and belief, all in one formula!
For instance, Sun worshippers believed that the Sun was their God, because they could factually prove the Suns existence. But all this was based on faith. They believed this no matter what, despite the Sun being there for a separate function. Faith.
You cannot, see hunger or thirst, but you can feel it. Similarily, you cannot see God, but you can feel His Presence. This is an individual connection.
The reason why Muslims believe that they are the chosen ones is no different to the reason why Bani Isra'eel believed that they were the chosen ones for centuries.
The Qur'aan, despite what people say, is still in it's original form. It also gives a challenge to all mankind, to produce a 4 short sentenced verse. This challenge is outstanding for over 1400 years. Until such time this challenge is fulfilled, Muslims will carry on taking their stance of feeling superior. Being a Muslim does not belong to a certain creed or colour. It is open to all Humanity. Whether one wishes to take up the offer, solely depends on that individuals element of choice.
Similarily, when you are the President or CEO of a company, you feel superior to the rest of the workforce. Why? Because the board has given you that right!
What some people tend to forget is that the Qur'aan is not the enemy of mankind, but a Mercy and Guidance.
Finally, all religions are not the same. The gift of CHOICE is the same!
OldLahori,
I don't know why the fact that Muslims have been given the challenge of propagating Islam to the world makes them any different than a Christian or anyone else who has core beliefs that dictate adherence to their own scripture. A Christian is to accept Jesus as their Saviour. You cannot ask a Christian to deny this and stay a Christian. So why is it different for a Muslim to think out of the box?
[quote]
*Originally posted by sholay: *
Until such time this challenge is fulfilled, Muslims will carry on taking their stance of feeling superior.
[/quote]
I don't know why Muslims feel like they have a lock on feeling superior. That view is naive and myopic. Christians believe their faith is superior, Jews believe theirs, etc. Just as Muslims believe their Quran is FACT, non-Muslims believe just as strongly that it is NOT FACT.
[quote]
The reason why Muslims believe that they are the chosen ones is no different to the reason why Bani Isra'eel believed that they were the chosen ones for centuries.
[/quote]
I hate to be the one to tell you, but they still believe they are the chosen ones.
[quote]
Similarily, when you are the President or CEO of a company, you feel superior to the rest of the workforce. Why? Because the board has given you that right!
[/quote]
The situation of the ummah today (violence, intolerance, illiteracy, poverty) after 1400 years of trying to exert their superiority, would be better compared to the mailroom than the boardroom.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
OldLahori,
I don't know why the fact that Muslims have been given the challenge of propagating Islam to the world makes them any different than a Christian or anyone else who has core beliefs that dictate adherence to their own scripture. A Christian is to accept Jesus as their Saviour. You cannot ask a Christian to deny this and stay a Christian. So why is it different for a Muslim to think out of the box?
I don't know why Muslims feel like they have a lock on feeling superior. That view is naive and myopic. Christians believe their faith is superior, Jews believe theirs, etc. Just as Muslims believe their Quran is FACT, non-Muslims believe just as strongly that it is NOT FACT.
[/QUOTE]
No it does not make the Muslims any different than a Christian. It is just their total conviction that their message is correct and better than those of the Christians. If you are a believing muslim, that is what you accept. I assume that if you are a believing Christian you would believe similarly in the Bible. The difference is the history. Christians have arrived at a point (the toturous history of the reformation, the split between the eastern othodox and Rome, etc. etc. ) where the states where they live will not acknolowdge the supremacy of the Christian Way. Charalemagne (sp?) and his christian kindom is in the mist of history. Muslims have a total different history. Except of Turkey, and even that is not clear whether it will stand apart, all muslims nations find it necessary to insert Islamic in the name of the country. Islamic Republic of Pakistan (another matter that Pakistan may not be either a republic or Islamic). See the flags of the muslim countries. Muslims states are proud to be Islamic. Can you state a state that is proud to be a Christian state"? Now without history how do you get into separation of church and state, how do you get a Justice Scalia who writes that the wall between church and state needs to be lowered, etc.?
Seminole
Regardless of how you feel, the fact still remains the same.
No Religion has been able to fulfill the challenge of the Qur'aan for over 1400 years.
The easiest way to ignore something is to dismiss the evidence!
Can you say the same of the current Bible!!
No!
However, if you want to discuss if the Bible is Gods Word in totallity without one error, then I will be more than happy to hear your views and proofs and then announce mine. This way we can scrutinise the Bible, similarily to how you want to scrutinise the Qur'aan.
Peace.
Old Lahori,
No, that was not the point. It is very natural for any follower to believe that his/her faith is the best. Otherwise why would someone believe in it at the first place? I do not argue that point. Muslims or Christians or Hindus can and do believe that their respective faith is the best. The problem starts when one person from one faith flaunts this self-percieved superiority or best-ness to the people of other faiths and try to "prove" the very best-ness of his faith to others to gloat its superiority. That's the kind of mentality I'm attacking here. They try to prove this superiority based on faith that only they think is righteous, but for the counterpart, say a Hindu or Jew, it is not.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Roman: *
Old Lahori,
No, that was not the point. It is very natural for any follower to believe that his/her faith is the best. Otherwise why would someone believe in it at the first place? I do not argue that point. Muslims or Christians or Hindus can and do believe that their respective faith is the best. The problem starts when one person from one faith flaunts this self-percieved superiority or best-ness to the people of other faiths and try to "prove" the very best-ness of his faith to others to gloat its superiority. That's the kind of mentality I'm attacking here. They try to prove this superiority based on faith that only they think is righteous, but for the counterpart, say a Hindu or Jew, it is not.
[/QUOTE]
Gloating and flaunting is childish to say the least. I agree with you that should not be there. The point to recognise is that this type of behavior is the outlying manifestation of a key difference between the Muslims and the hindus, christians or jews. Please read my earlier post to seminole. Again doubt is built into hinduism and budhhaism. Those religions pride themselves for the "deep insightful questions" that the human mind can ask. Muslims have rejected that as a waste of time. Imam Ghazali did that in the 12th century. Hence it is very difficult for muslims and hindus to communicate over beliefs and faith. Christians have been warring (serious stuff; much more than the Shia-sunni in Islam) amongst themselves for centuries and literally fought each other into secularism. Muslims have rejected that because of the many versions of the Bible and the acceptance that they can choose some parts of the bible and not the others. Nearly all christians, hindus, and jews will have no problem stating in public and in meetings that they have no problem rejecting this or that part of their holy book or texts. That is not the case amongst the Muslims. Not one muslim around the globe will say that even one verse of the Quran is wrong. Now some may feel in their hearts that parts of the Quran are wrong, but the Quran itself tells the Muslims that will be the case and that there will always be hypocraits. In muslim countries, a doubting muslim will be crazy to try to argue for his doubts very forcefully for he is likely going to be killed. Look at the blasphemy laws and apostacy laws on the books in many many muslim countries. So, yes muslims are quite different from the believers of other faiths, and they are very very proud of these differences.
Now some may feel in their hearts that parts of the Quran are wrong, but the Quran itself tells the Muslims that will be the case and that there will always be hypocraits
This cannot, by any means, be presented a convincing argument. One may argue that Quran says this to use to suspicion and fear induced by such statement to keep the followers stick to their beliefs. Yes, Muslims can still believe in its validity all that they want but they cannot tell a non-believer that you are condemned will burn in hellfire and so on and so forth because then the non-believer will take up on the task of deeper inspection of Quran and come up with theories that would be equally offensive to Muslim as the "condmnation and hellfire" part was offensive to non-believer. I think that's one of the reasons that Quran itself says that respect other faiths (religions) so that they show respect towards yours (or is it don't ridicule other religions so that they won't ridicule yours?).
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Roman: *
Now some may feel in their hearts that parts of the Quran are wrong, but the Quran itself tells the Muslims that will be the case and that there will always be hypocraits
This cannot, by any means, be presented a convincing argument. One may argue that Quran says this to use to suspicion and fear induced by such statement to keep the followers stick to their beliefs. Yes, Muslims can still believe in its validity all that they want but they cannot tell a non-believer that you are condemned will burn in hellfire and so on and so forth because then the non-believer will take up on the task of deeper inspection of Quran and come up with theories that would be equally offensive to Muslim as the "condmnation and hellfire" part was offensive to non-believer. I think that's one of the reasons that Quran itself says that respect other faiths (religions) so that they show respect towards yours (or is it don't ridicule other religions so that they won't ridicule yours?).
[/QUOTE]
I completely agree. Anyone who ridicules anothers faith is a fool. However, muslims would disagree about coming up with "valid" criticism of the Quran on deeper inspection. If a muslims agruments is the cause for anyone deeper inspection of the Quran, it is a greatful and happy moment for the muslim.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by OldLahori: *
It is just their total conviction that their message is correct and better than those of the Christians. If you are a believing muslim, that is what you accept. I assume that if you are a believing Christian you would believe similarly in the Bible. The difference is the history. Christians have arrived at a point (the toturous history of the reformation, the split between the eastern othodox and Rome, etc. etc. ) where the states where they live will not acknolowdge the supremacy of the Christian Way. Charalemagne (sp?) and his christian kindom is in the mist of history. Muslims have a total different history. Except of Turkey, and even that is not clear whether it will stand apart, all muslims nations find it necessary to insert Islamic in the name of the country. Islamic Republic of Pakistan (another matter that Pakistan may not be either a republic or Islamic). See the flags of the muslim countries. Muslims states are proud to be Islamic. Can you state a state that is proud to be a Christian state"? Now without history how do you get into separation of church and state, how do you get a Justice Scalia who writes that the wall between church and state needs to be lowered, etc.?
[/QUOTE]
You are talking about societies, governments and countries. I am talking about discussing spirituality and religion on a personal level. A person should not limit his discussion of spirituality based on what the ummah is dictating.
As a group, there are fundamentalist and radical Christians who want a Christian society as well, but far fewer than Muslim groups to be sure. That is because of the reasons you mentioned – Reformation, secularism, modernization, democracy, capitalism – which have brought about open and freethinking. Islam is a much younger religion. Look where Christian societies were after 1400 years – fresh off the Crusades and Inquisition, trying to crawl out of the Dark Ages. 1500 years after Christ, Christopher Columbus was claiming the new world not just for Spain, but also for Christianity. 1600 years after Christ, Puritans in New England burnt people at the stake for heresy. 1700 years after Christ, Christians used the Bible to justify slavery of “heathens” and colonization of “backward, barbaric peoples”. So in perspective, Muslims today are ahead of the pace Christians set in modernization of society.
I believe that it is not because of a lack of pride that western nations don’t have “Christian” in front of their names, but rather because of modernization – out of which governments learned to respect an individual’s right to think for himself.
You seem to be one of a handful of moderate Muslims on this site willing to discuss religion without talking down from a righteous perch. My problem with your arguements in this post revolve around your insistence that Muslims have a mandate - from the Quran, Allah, the ummah or whatever - that they are justifed in claiming superiority. I've always believed a strong and sound phiosophical opinion regarding spirituality and religion, dictate that it allow flexibility. A truly, smart man will tell you that NO ONE, other than God, knows absolute truths.
I got one hour before I head to dinner. Rainy sat afternoon in NYC and all. Had a question for you guys.
I believe in God. I call him Allah, Shiva, Ram, Jesus, E.T> or whatever...who am I offending?
I think all the differnt religions are basically practices (cultural) with a similar message for individuals to deal with their surroundings in order to live in harmony with their environment. I don't know if there is heaven or hell, nor do I care. What I find interesting is that in certain religions it is more about how you live your life today for the rewards are in the afterlife. In others you live a certain way to reap the rewards in the current. I prefer the latter, because I firmly believe that even thought I may not be a christian or a muslim. If there is a heaven or even a hell or if my destiny is to come back as a rodent or an enlightened human being or even attain nirvana, by getting away from idiotic and exclusionary practices I have a better chance to reap the rewards in the current and if there is one, afterlife. And that is the FACT.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
I got one hour before I head to dinner. Rainy sat afternoon in NYC and all. Had a question for you guys.
I belive in God. I think you can call him Allah, Shiva, Ram, Jesus, E.T> or whatever...who am I offending?
[/QUOTE]
I'm not offended in the least. I am, however, a little envious. We need the rain badly here and I have no plans for dinner.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
I believe that it is not because of a lack of pride that western nations don’t have “Christian” in front of their names, but rather because of modernization – out of which governments learned to respect an individual’s right to think for himself.
You seem to be one of a handful of moderate Muslims on this site willing to discuss religion without talking down from a righteous perch. My problem with your arguements in this post revolve around your insistence that Muslims have a mandate - from the Quran, Allah, the ummah or whatever - that they are justifed in claiming superiority. I've always believed a strong and sound phiosophical opinion regarding spirituality and religion, dictate that it allow flexibility. A truly, smart man will tell you that NO ONE, other than God, knows absolute truths.
[/QUOTE]
Seminole: I am an American. I was born here and perhaps the tone you detect is because of cultural familiarity. I don't think it is a matter of pride but a long history of reformation wars, witch burnings, etc. and fighting among the christians that leads to the modern secular ethos. As one can see even today that there are remanent forces in the west that would like to roll that back. I have been called many a names by muslims on this site, and in a companion thread discussing intellect, I am being dissed for being unislamic pretty strongly. It is clear that had I been in a muslim country, I would have been either killed or behind bars a long time ago. Again I am not talking about what 'systems' or 'ummha' does or not. I am trying to tell you why when I go to a mosque with my father and I try to talk to some of fellow muslims, I find that I have made them really really angry. They exhibit all physical signs associated with being deeply and seriously affected. This is not a theoretical or intellectual issue. I am trying to understand why do they get so angry and why do the beliefs comes so close to their identity. If it was a very small fraction, one could ascribe that to physiology. But from my personal experience I would put the number closer to 1 in 5 atleast. So the question is why? And I have been trying to give you the reasons as best as I have been able to understand. Now the remaining 4 in 5 guys are pretty laid back and still very good muslims.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
**If there is a heaven or even a hell , my destiny is to come back as a rodent And that is the FACT.*
[/QUOTE]
Yup, I am quite sure u will return as a roadent , I just hope this time u do belong to a better gene pool.