What is wrong with basing Religion on FAITH? Does something have to be factual to be believed? Is something factual superior to somthing of faith? There is nothing wrong with having faith in something... Yes I think religion is based on FAITH? Fact is left to realm of science and Mathematics... Relgion is within the realm of FAITH.
Why should we mix the two?
[quote]
Originaly posted by sholay
Indeed it would be a pointless exercise, since anyone who cares to take a trip to Tashkent (in the former Soviet Union) will find there a complete copy of the Qur'an written by one of the Prophet's scribes, Zayed ibn Thabit, upon the order of the first Caliph Abu Bakr within two years of the Prophet's death.
[/quote]
Hmmm I believe the manuscript in Tashkent dates back only to the period of the third Caliph. Muslim history informs us that he sent copies to various centers of the Muslim Empire to consolidate the 'version' of Qur'an.. which however raises the speculation that there was indeed a problem with the way Qur'an was read or was being copied in different parts of the world, Arabic not being the first language of many.
PA
If I've made made an error on the Caliph period, then aplogies.
However, the difference is only another 10 years.
First Khalif Abu Bakr (632-34)
Third Khalif Othman (644-56)
The point on comparison is still the same.
Peace.
sholay you did make an error in the period of the caliphs.
Also recheck the same traditions that tell you all this. The war in 12H forced the first compilation. The varied readings of the Qur'an in Usman's reign prompted the second. Did Usman order the compilation as soon as he took over?? I think the final distribution is placed around 654CE.. about 22 years after the completion of it's revelation.
In fact the whole discussion is meaningless in light of the fact that dating Qura'nic manuscripts is still a contentious issue and lastly, it is not unanimously agreed that the copy in Tashkent is indeed the same from the copies (hadith disputes it at five or seven) sent out by Usman.
Here's a brief history for those who care to read on the manuscript in Tashkent. It has NOT been established to be THE manuscript from that time.. although it could be an inspired copy.
The 'Imam' Manuscript
This is the name used for the copy which 'Uthman kept
himself, and it is said he was killed while reading it. [1]
According to some the Umayyads took it to Andalusia,
from where it came to Fas (Morocco) and according to Ibn
Batuta it was there in the eighth century after the Hijra, and
there were traces of blood on it. From Morocco, it might have
found its way to Samarkand.
The Samarkand Manuscript' [2]
This is the copy now kept in Tashkent (Uzbekistan). It may
be the Imam manuscript or one of the other copies made at
the time of 'Uthman.
It came to Samarkand in 890 Hijra (1485) and remained
there till 1868. Then it was taken to St. Petersburg by the
Russians in 1869. It remained there till 1917. A Russian
orientalist gave a detailed description of it, saying that many
pages were damaged and some were missing. A facsimile,
some 50 copies, of this mus haf was produced by S. Pisareff in
1905. A copy was sent to the Ottoman Sultan 'Abdul Hamid,
to the Shah of Iran, to the Amir of Bukhara, to Afghanistan,
to Fas and some important Muslim personalities. One copy is
now in the Columbia University Library (U.S.A.). [3]
The manuscript was afterwards returned to its former place
and reached Tashkent in 1924, where it has remained since.
Apparently the Soviet authorities have made further copies,
which are presented from time to time to visiting Muslim heads of state and other important personalities. In 1980, photocopies of such a facsimile were produced in the United States, with a two-page foreword by M. Hamidullah.
The writer of the History of the Mushaf of 'Uthmtln in Tashkent gives a number of reasons for the authenticity of the manuscript. They are, excluding the various historical reports which suggest this, as follows:
The fact that the mushaf is written in a script used in the
first half of the first century Hijra.The fact that it is written on parchment from a gazelle,
while later Qur'ans are written on paper-like sheets.The fact that it does not have any diacritical marks which
were introduced around the eighth decade of the first
century; hence the manuscript must have been written
before that.The fact that it does not have the vowelling symbols
introduced by Du'all, who died in 68 Hijra; hence it is
earlier than this.
[1]Ibn Said: al-Tabaqatal-kubra, Cairo, n.d., Vol. 111, (1). pp. 51-2.
[2] Makhdum, op. cit., p.22ff.
[3] The Muslim World, Vol . 30 ( 1940), pp.357-8.
PA
Do you have more info regarding this Quran? I know few other copies of Al-Quran kept in Turkey and Baghdad (dated back to the 8 century)
A useful resource on Qur’anic manuscripts can be found here (including pictures of many ancient copies):
Wassalam
Iqbal
PA,
I would like to read up more on this. So if you have refs. or links. Please post them if you get the time.
Ibrahim says: salaams to all
I give you THREE translators translations in English of the same Arabic verses as recorded in the Qur’an. For those who are being sent on a scouting expedition concerning the Qur'an by the devils advocate. (PA)
[75:16]
YUSUFALI:
Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make haste therewith.
PICKTHAL:
Stir not thy tongue herewith to hasten it.
SHAKIR:
Do not move your tongue with it to make haste with it,
[75:17]
YUSUFALI:
** It is for Us to collect it and to promulgate it: **
PICKTHAL:
** Lo! upon Us (resteth) the putting together thereof and the reading thereof. **
SHAKIR:
** Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it. **
[75:18]
YUSUFALI:
But when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital (as promulgated):
PICKTHAL:
And when We read it, follow thou the reading;
SHAKIR:
Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.
Ibrahim says : Now for devils, deviants and non believers reading such a statement coming from Allah (swt) will not mean much. But for Muslims it means that it was Allah (swt) Who had ensured that the Qur'an was compiled as compiled and not by any man at a later date and time since the Qur’an was revealed in Arabic and had to remain un-compiled as long as the Prophet (pbuh) was alive and his mission was still in progress.
Now contemplate on the following verses:-
20: 113 Thus have** we sent this down an Arabic Qur'an ** and explained therein ** in detail some** of the warnings in order that they may fear Allah or that it may cause their remembrance (of Him).
114 High above all is Allah the King the Truth! Be not in haste with the Qur'an ** before its revelation to thee is completed ** but say "O my Lord! advance me in knowledge."
So why has this not sink in to you ( pa) ??? since you used to claim you followed only the Qur’an (meaning you believed in Islam ), or has that act proven unsuccessful so now your TRUE colors are appearing little by little?
Regards
Ibrahim
** when you have Clear purpose , you won’t have time for negativity **
PA
Description: The Holy Koran of Othman is written on animal skins.
Dimensions: 53x62 cm.
No of pages: approx. 250.
The manuscript is written in Kufi script in large black characters
Bibliographic details: Inventory No 1 in library catalogue.
Two other partially complete contemporary manuscript copies of Othman's Koran are conserved in Sana'a and in Cairo.
50 pages belonging to this manuscript found their way into a private collection in London 200 years ago.
Visual documentation: Slides
History: The Koran, revealed by Allah to prophet Muhammad, was committed to memory by the early Muslims and recorded by scribes on various materials such as scraps of wood or camel bones. After the death of Muhammad, the first Khalif Abu Bakr (632-34) had all known suras recorded in writing by scribes such as the calligrapher Zayd bin Thabit, secretary of Prophet Muhammad. Later, the third Khalif Othman (644-56) ordered the suras (verses) to be gathered into a book with the help of the four best Koranic scholars of the time. The definitive version of the Koran prepared in Medinah in 651, known as the Mushaf of Othman, was declared as a standard, superseding all other versions. Khalif Othman was assassinated while reading the Aya "And if they believe even as ye believe, then are they rightly guided. But if they turn away, then are they in schism, and Allah will be thy protection against them" from this very manuscript, which is stained with his blood.
According to popular tradition, there are two accounts of how the Koran of Othman was brought from Medinah to the territory of present-day Uzbekistan:
Version 1: A relative of Khalif Othman brought the Koran to Maverannahr during a period of internal disorders in the Medinah.
Version 2: Ali Ibn Abi Taleb brought the Koran to Kufa, from where Amir Temur brought it to Samarkand on his return from his conquest of Iraq.
In 1868 the Koran of Othman was delivered to the Russian Emperor by General Von Kaufman and kept in the Imperial Public Library in St Petersburg. After the Revolution of October 1917 the Muslims of Kazan brought Othman's Koran to their city. There were several quarrels between the Muslims of Kazan and the Muslims of Uzbekistan. As a result, the manuscript Koran was returned to Tashkent in 1924. It was stored in the museum of history until 1989, when it was given to the Muslim Board of Uzbekistan.
Identity and Location
Name of the Documentary Heritage: Holy Koran of Othman (Mushaf of Othman)
Country: The Republic of Uzbekistan
State, Province or Region: Tashkent city
Address: 103, Zarkaynar street, 700002, Tashkent, Uzbekistan
Name of Institution: The Muslim Board of Uzbekistan
The owner and custodian were consulted concerning the training or retraining of specialists in the field of conservation of documentary heritage and launching joint preservation/conservation projects.
Independent institutions and experts:
Mr. Khabibullo Saliev
Senior Scientific Expert
The International Center for Islamic Studies
103, Zarkaynar street
Tashkent, 700002
UZBEKISTAN
Tel: (7+3712) 40.36.59/ 40.19.21
Assessment of Risk
Environmental conditions: The manuscript is kept in locked case without any special climatic control for temperature and for humidity. It is not usually exposed to daylight.
Physical conditions: The pages are fragile and brittle, necessitating extreme caution in turning the pages.
Preservation budget: No special budget or qualified personnel is available.
Extent and nature of use: Access to the original of the manuscript is severely restricted. Facsimile copy is available for the consultation by readers.
Preservation Assessment
Present physical state: The parchment is brittle with age.
History of preservation: Some restoration were carried by the scholar Umuz Aymani c. 1840.
Current preservation policy in relation to proposed documentary heritage: Restriction on free access and protection from light.
Person or persons responsible for preservation: The Muslim Board of Uzbekistan.
Hope that helps!