Ahmadjee,
Then please tell me, what is the difference between 'faith' and 'blind faith'?
"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."
Hasnain, your previous screeds were a bit more coherent. I think you have been thinking a bit too much.
Muni, please contemplate on PA's leap of faith part a bit more.
This whole facts in Quran debate is too old and contraversial. This is not the first time anybody has thought of it. But that was not even the point to begin with. The point was the bigotry of fanatic arrogant dolts like Hasnain who want to prove to the world of their faith, and the claims that their faith is better than others' faith becuase it's the "Word of God".
Anybody who tries to prove his faith doesn't follow his faith because its word of God, but because he's too insecure. He needs the confirmation from the world that yeh, what you believe in is true. Such people do not have their own sense of right and wrong, it's always dependent upon the interpretaions of religous metaphors and they don't even know why they (religious morals) were in there to begin with - they take it for face value and think they are earning sawab.
Chaltahai,
Losing it are we? i thought you were cooler than the rest of those guys.
I said that Islaam was based on facts, after you suggested that it was solely based on faith. The key word here is after.
[quote]
Originally posted by Chaltahai:
*This high-browed attitude is one reason why everytime you open your mouth a whole lot of nothing comes out. *
[/quote]
Oh, that'll be me yawning after listening to your nonsensical remarks ... yawn ... sorry, there i go again!
[quote]
Originally posted by Chaltahai:
What your itsy-bitsy mind fails to comprehend is that what makes Islam a strong religion is not blind rhetoric like yours but faith in the message.
[/quote]
... and what makes the message so strong?
Tell me Chaltahai .... are you a man of science?
"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."
Actually Hasnain: I am a man of multiple disciplines. (Pun Intended) Shoot!!
I posted this in another thread in religion (I think it is attending a non-muslims funeral). It may have bearing here. What do you guys think? Am I on the right track?
Seminole:
What you are saying is absolutely correct for an educated western mind. When someone identifies themselves as muslims (as you say culture and religion are intertwined in Islam) two things become critical for that identity. Without these the identity shatters.
These are: 1) Quran is the unambiuous Word of Allha. This is accepted as a FACT not a belief, not an assumption, but a fact as real as "I am alive". Many people do not like this certainity because it very quickly can lead to facism if not handled properly. 2) Muhammad is the Seal of the prophets, and his life, words, actions, beliefs are the actual implementation of Allha's commands. And hence are to be imitated to the best of one's abilities. Again this is taken as a FACT.
So in the west, when people say my faith, it means totally and completely different than when a convinced muslim says "my faith".
You may wonder about the sociology of people who have some doubts, or who are unsure. But that is whole another very interesting topic that provides insight into many a muslim societies.
I say this so you can understand that the definition you give above assume a cultural setting and the use of the english words in that setting. The answers you are getting are coming from a totally different environment and setting. Hence there might be some confusion.
OL: You are partially right. The issues with facts is that they are universal.
If you were to tell me that muslim men don't come down when they jump then I would doubt Gravity.
Roman,
As emotional as ever! It's funny how you can never hold your nerve in this forum. It must be that ulcer bothering you again.
Perhaps you should learn to explain your beliefs first, before you call me all sorts of names. You are trying to grasp too much in one go and without reason and recognition - the similitude of someone thirsty: the water jug is on the table and the empty glass sists beside it, but you would still rather go and dunk your head in the horse trough!
As i said earlier:
[quote]
*The problem is, that my invitation to Islaam throws hatred in some hearts like yourself, Ny, CH and PA. It’s like a disease, eating it’s way through your mind, turning you up-side-down inside, while fuelling the fire and animosity in the depths of your hearts – a burnt out heart - a ulcer out of control – destined for an abode: full of emotions, unsure what lies on the other side of death, your anxiety throws up before your thoughts! *
[/quote]
regards
"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
OL: You are partially right. The issues with facts is that they are universal.
If you were to tell me that muslim men don't come down when they jump then I would doubt Gravity.
[/QUOTE]
Look there are many many very personal matters that are just not amenable to "universal" criteria because we do not know how to investigate them. The prime example is that of "consciousness". I know I am conscious and alive, but that "qualia" cannot even be investigated. You get into Turing Test very very quickly, when you ask, how do you know that you are communicating right now with another 'human' and not an AI entity? But there are certain 'things' you accept and act upon them as if they were FACTS and these things cannot be investigated reliably to arrive at universal acceptance.
Hasnain: One fact...just one please....please!
And what's with the Aphorisms "waterjug...thirsty". Did you learn to speak from Yogi Berra-on-tape?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by OldLahori: *
Look there are many many very personal matters that are just not amenable to "universal" criteria because we do not know how to investigate them. The prime example is that of "consciousness". I know I am conscious and alive, but that "qualia" cannot even be investigated. You get into Turing Test very very quickly, when you ask, how do you know that you are communicating right now with another 'human' and not an AI entity? But there are certain 'things' you accept and act upon them as if they were FACTS and these things cannot be investigated reliably to arrive at universal acceptance.
[/QUOTE]
Until then... to assign finality to something maybe mocking it's very self. So we have faith in the message and look at the absolutes as a guide that might change over time until we can get a better understanding.
To act upon beliefs that are cannot be universally proven is not taken as fact they are taken as faith.
Old Lahore..if you were born to Jewish Parents, you will be a Jew. That’s a fact. If Husnain was born to Sikh parents, he will be Sikh, that’s a fact. Milk canals flowing and nude hoors swimming in paradise is not a fact, at best it is a faith (and a myth). You believing in those myths is a fact, but that does not make those myths a fact. Have you ever heard anyone say: Have some facts man?
Chaltahai
What fact are you looking for.
When I'm busy, I tend to quickly skim through the posts and don't read each and every word.
Please repeat your request.
Wait, did one of my posts just disappear?
I have sent Hasnain on a fact finding mission to his Shiekh. He will be back soon with some more facts. Stay tuned.
Rom…you get excited so easily. Keep your emotions in check. If one of us ends up there, let’s be sure to share our booty. Too much to handle for one. Rom has the best chance of getting there. Chaltahai stands no chance, I have 45/35 chance
Sholay: When you have some time read through the thread? I quit requesting after the n'th time. Last time was n'th.
Rom: You post went buh-bye becuas eyou have no respect for naked hoors.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NYAhmadi: *
Old Lahore..if you were born to Jewish Parents, you will be a Jew. That’s a fact. If Husnain was born to Sikh parents, he will be Sikh, that’s a fact. Milk canals flowing and nude hoors swimming in paradise is not a fact, at best it is a faith (and a myth). You believing in those myths is a fact, but that does not make those myths a fact. Have you ever heard anyone say: Have some facts man?
[/QUOTE]
NyAhmadi: I agree with you mostly. I was simply pointing out that "facts" is not as a unidimensional a concept as it is at times considered. All facts have to be accepted by one's "conciousness"; example I see a tree out there. I accept "I" as a fact as self evident (no universal acceptance required), I might accept " I see" with a little self investigation, etc. Normal everyday usage of "have some facts man" requires a substatial cultural preacceptance of many many assumptions.
I move my hand away from a flame, but not everyone does!! I will not walk through a minefield expecting reward, but many an Iranian kids did expecting Milk canals in paradise. For many of those kids, Paradise was a fact as certain as I accept "I" as self evident. Sorry for this nit picking. We are in the realm of psychology and not the natural sciences.
OL: The what makes it universal is no just the "I", it also the "tree" I know what "I" is as well as the "Tree".
Therefore I can accept that it is a fact. If I didn't know what a tree was then I would have faith in you that you saw something called a tree.
That is what the whole venture of Science is these days!! Trying to determine what the heck is that “tree” out there! When you stop at a particular defination as sufficient, it is merely a cultural acceptance of what is practical for that culture. Please consider people who are synthese (sp?);
http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues01/feb01/synesthesia.html
or
http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar01/synesthesia.html
These guys will combine senses in ways that the average human does not. For example: Every time they hear a name, they will also get a strong sense of taste. Nancy is the sound nancy but also a crinkly greasy pastry, or Bob is the sound but also a very sour mouth puckering taste. Some will see a number but also a color that goes with it. So 5 is always a red 5 and 7 is always a yellow 7 etc. There are many many cases like that. There is nothing wrong with them!!! That is important to realise. So what is “out there” is very very hard to even define without have a clear notion of what is “in here”. Hope that made sense. Think about it what is a tree, after all?
What's with the chinese scripts in this thread?
Roman-
read, re-read, meditate, ponder, and meditate on this thread.