Here we are Chaltahai … and anyone else of course who thinks that Religion is purely based on faith and not fact.
I on the other hand believe that faith is a result of facts. Without these facts, faith would be blind, which is precisely why we need to examine the facts before we put faith in anything.
Ok Chaltahai, please let me hear your side. What is it about Islaam that you believe is not either based on fact or derived from fact?
&peace
“no leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it.”
Tell me how stoning a woman for comitting adultery is the logical punishment as per sharia. And please advise why not the chinese water torchure or the rack. Because factually at that time those two methods were also there as per punishments go, so why decide on the stoning.
thanks in advance,
So I and others can follow this discussion as it enfolds, Hasnain could you please define clearly what you mean exactly by that "Islam is based on Facts". I honestly don't understand whay you are saying by that statement. I can think of many different meanings that could be imparted to it.
Is it a fact that the koran was revealed to Mohammed? Can you substantiate the fact without quoting the koran and do it by an independent source. If not, then I would assume that it is the strong faith of the muslims in that belief. WHich is obviously more important acording to me.
Essentially you have made a very vague and confusing statement at the spur of the moment, not to mention its obvious incorrectness.
It is your faith that there was a guy named Noah who built a big kashti and gathered a pair of every single species to propagate life on earth while the enormous flood destroyed everything else but the kashti. This cannot be accepted as a fact - we may find remains of the kashti, or archialogical clues about Noah that he existed (chalo I give you that) but we can never believe that pair of speicies and big enough kashti stuff.
It is also your faith that there is one Allah. It is not a fact. There might be a group of gods who created this universe - who knows.
It is also your faith that Mohammad was revealed with Quran by God, not concocted it by himself. What happened in that cave is not a matter of fact as there was no witness to the events.
Similarly, everything in religion that talks about after-life is a matter of faith. Nobody has, for fact, seen heaven or hell or pull-ay sarat etc.
Religions are based on faith.. a HUGE leap of faith. where and when you draw the line is upto you.. I stop at believing Qur'an is divine. You take it to higher levels believing 9th century Arabs/Persians and whatever they wrote.
It's all faith.. or else.. it would be extremely difficult to even prove the many events as people believe in them.. there is scattered, little or no archaeological or historical evidence to support that Mecca was a city of religious importance around 630CE.
I think you guys are missing Hasnain's point. He didn't say faith is BASED on facts. He said faith is a result of facts. i.e. You dont have to see Allah to believe in him, but many 'factual' elements lead one to belieev that there is indeed a God.
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*Originally posted by ammarr: *
I think you guys are missing Hasnain's point. He didn't say faith is BASED on facts. He said faith is a result of facts. i.e. You dont have to see Allah to believe in him, but many 'factual' elements lead one to belieev that there is indeed a God.
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Can you name those facts that lead you to believe that there is is a god named allah? And please don't refer to the koran because that logic is circular.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
**Can you name those facts that lead you to believe that there is is a god named allah? And please don't refer to the koran because that logic is circular.
thanks,
CH **
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Brother CH,
ALLAH is an Arabic Word. In english, the meaning of ALLAH IS GOD
ALLAH is an Arabic Word. In english, the meaning of ALLAH IS GOD
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Easy there fella! Before we know it the American judge is going to be right: "One nation under Vishnu?"
In that case, are you willing to go as far as saying Vishnu or better yet Brhaman is God in Sanskrit? Why the English God and not the Sanskrit Brhaman? Think through carefully before you land in the land of Shirk!!
Easy there fella! Before we know it the American judge is going to be right: "One nation under Vishnu?"
I believe I was wrong.
Christians use word God for Jesus Christ.
Muslims hardly use word God.
In that case, are you willing to go as far as saying Vishnu or better yet Brhaman is God in Sanskrit? Why the English God and not the Sanskrit Brhaman? Think through carefully before you land in the land of Shirk!!
Dr. Maurice Bucaille’s book “The Bible, The Qur’an and Science”](http://www.tempemasjid.com/maurice/frcont15.htm) (first published 1976) contains a very objective and analytical study of the authenticity of the Quran and its scientific miracles. He compares its authenticity to the Bible as well. Dr. Maurice is a French surgeon and has for a long time been deeply interested in the correspondences between the teachings of the Holy Scriptures and modern secular knowledge. He also has expert knowledge of Egypt under the Pharaohs.
The Ultimate Dialogue (For video go to www.islamicity.com and search for “The Quran & the Bible in the light of science” in media; audio): A debate between a Christian missionary Dr. William Campbell and Dr. Zakir Naik (Muslim). Dr. William Campbell wrote a book “The Qur’an and the Bible in the Light of History & Science” as a Christian response to Dr. Maurice Bucaille’s aforementioned book.
Video lecture by Dr. Zakir Naik (of India) on the subject: “Is the Quran God’s word”](IslamiCity - The Global Muslim eCommunity). Dr. Zakir uses utter logic to prove the Quran’s divine origins.
Does a person take an exam and write in it a message to the examiner that he will not find any errors in it? Well, this is the precise challenge of the Quran (download Quran):
4:82. Do they not consider the Qur’an (with care)? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein many contradictions.
Take any scripture on Earth and you will find many errors and contradictions in it. The Bible, for example, has hundreds (if not thousands) of straightforward contradictions.
Here is something for you to investigate:
“If Muhammad (pbuh) copied from the Bible then howcome he did not copy its errors as well (such historical or scientific errors that we have only recently discovered and Muhammad (pbuh) could not have known in his time), and if Muhammad (pbuh) did not copy from the Bible then howcome there is such a similarity b/w many of the stories in the Quran and those in the Bible.”
The answer is only one, they are both from the same source: Allah. But the former scriptures were adulterated by man while the Quran was not.
Investigate and such an investigation does not only provide proof for the existence of God but also of the truth of Islam.
Sallu…I don’t know but why wont Mulla establishment let Quran be translated into other languages (not just mere translations, but translations without Arabic in it)? Why not open it for more examination, and let people find out what is myth and what is fiction. Don’t you think that praying Nimaz in one’s native language makes more sense than by literatiming what one may never know?
If you say that Bible was altered, can you produce the ‘authentic’ bible? Or do you take the word of a Molvi about authenticity of the Bible without questioning that absurd notion.
If something was changed, then tell people what was changed. If Quran is the same as Bible, then call it by that name.
Can you just quote me facts that Koran was revealed to mohammed. Give me a book of historical not anecdotal referance.
Is there another contemporary source besides the Koran to substantiate that?
thanks,
CH
P.S.: Many say that Koran is just a copy of other great books. Is there something to the theory of a "copy of a copy being not being as sharp as the original"?
BTW, there is a book out there which supposedly quite logically argues and proves that Mohammad in fact never existed and he's a persona of a myth. I don't remember the name of the book. Now, I personally don't believe that but then again, it's a matter of belief not fact.
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*Originally posted by Roman: *
BTW, there is a book out there which supposedly quite logically argues and proves that Mohammad in fact never existed and he's a persona of a myth. I don't remember the name of the book. Now, I personally don't believe that but then again, it's a matter of belief not fact.
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Roman if you can quote that book then it beomes fact. Although it may not be faithfully true