For those Who Believe that Religion is Solely Based on Faith and not Fact ...

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Roman bhai,

Thanks for your explanation. It makes a little more sense.

Though you need to realize that there are two reasons why people make the "saving from hell fire" comment.

  1. People actually hold that belief. For example, if you ask Husnain, he actually believes that those who don't follow his Islam are bound to hell fire. (which BTW a belief very similar to those Baptists who knock on my door every other day)

  2. They don't hold the belief that every person outside their belief is bound to hell but they make a judgment on a very personal level.

And I believe the group 2 actually falls under the criteria of "I am holier than thou" that you were talking about.

Personally I don't mind that comment at all as long as they are not pushy, neither do I suspect or try to figure out if they are doing it to get more donations for their church/mosque or actually believe that I will be going to hell.

42

Ammar: If circular logic is fact according to you, then we have nothing to discuss. I have yet to see the post from Hasnain where he proves factually by contemporary evidence from the 7th century A.D., not by Koran, that Koran is the word of god.

thanks,

CH

43

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Roman: *

Your faith is good to you alone, anybody else who doesn't share it with you feels the same about his own.

[/QUOTE]

If this was the case then we wouldnt be here in the first place. but I would still like to know how your faith is just good for you alone?

44

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *

*No, actually I think it is the Muslims that mixed them up when they claimed the same God (and propehts) as the Christians. *
[/QUOTE]

Christians consider Jesus Christ as their Lord/God

Muslims don't consider that. Not even Prophet Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him)

Here, you go. I just proof you who's mixing up :)

45

Chaltahai, this is where you're acting a little judgemental. No one (IMO) is stupid enough to believe in facts deduced by circular logic. Anyhow getting back to the initial subject.....

46

Ahmadjee bhai jaan, I am not disputing what they believe in. I'm merely pointing out the intent and motives behind their trying to prove a faith and convert others to it.

MiniMe, I don't understand your "we wouldnt be here in the first place" part. Please elaborate. For the latter part, my faith is good alone for me as it may be the source of moral guidence and/or spiritual fulfillment for me but for a Hindu friend of mine, for example, his belief in Shiva may do the same.

47

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Pakistani Tiger: *

Christians consider Jesus Christ as their Lord/God

Muslims don't consider that. Not even Prophet Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him)

Here, you go. I just proof you who's mixing up :)
[/QUOTE]

My original reply to your "mix-up" charge, was that Muslims claimed the Christian/Jewish God as their own, thus God and Allah are the same being. They added their own desert twist to it, claiming to know Chrisitianity better than the Christians. Muslims claim Christian roots, Christians make no such claims in regards to Islam.

And by the way, most Christians I speak to consider Jesus Christ the Son of God, their Lord and Saviour, not their "God". That is a big misconception among Muslims around here.

48

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Chaltahai: *
Tell me how stoning a woman for comitting adultery is the logical punishment as per sharia. And please advise why not the chinese water torchure or the rack. Because factually at that time those two methods were also there as per punishments go, so why decide on the stoning.
thanks in advance,

CH
[/QUOTE]

Dear chalti hai
I would like to remind u that every sort of punishment results in death...whether being stoned or electricuted.
Now tell me how many times have u listened that a person has been stoned to death in an islamic community.none but how many time have u heard a person being electrocuted .....plent.

Let me give u an account of what I saw when a person was electrecuted in the electric chair in US OF A. well for starters he has to ware a nappie cause electrecution causes an abrupt secretion of extrements , secondly his head has to be shaved as ur hair will catch fire due to the intence shock. Thirdly he has to wear eye patches cause eyes pop out cause of the intencity of teh shock and start bleeding but still if the doctor proclaims that he is not dead they give him another shock and repeat these stages till he is dead ..... well taht sounds quite civilised ..... probably for the indians .... as they r used to burning ppl alive...
hope u dint mind my earlier threads each time i try to be civilised with u they close the thread.

49

Nebraska is the only state left that requires execution by electrocution. I agree that it is a barbaric and inhumane punishment. A big difference however, is that in US execution is only for the most heinous crimes against humanity, namely murder. While there are some ancient blasphemy laws still on the books in some states, they are rarely, if ever enforced.

50

Pooti: You are missing the greater point. I can petition to change a cruel law in the US. Can you petition to change a law prescribed by the koran. Becuase here is the crux of the matter that mullahs like you self fear:

becuase you think that Koran is factually the word of god, any change to the law prescribed by the koran will be infact changing the word of god. And since God cannot be wrong, then we are in a pickle, aren't we. Q.E.D.

51

Dear chalti hai … First of all I would like to thank u for being a litttel less abusive (POOTI) probably in a broder concept it meant something else …but …:nono:
about the mulla part I wish I was, believe me as i would never be considered in there catagory:rotfl:
secondly… As i only know about pakistan , the supreme court has just ruled that any lower court that has given the punishment of stonning too death will not be carried out(because u need According to Quran at least 4 gawahs who have seen the women/man commiting adultery which is quite impossible in a muslim society but in a hindu society may be possible.). I dont think its only nabraska semicolen …texas…and many more.
But u tell me … if u dont have a deterent … will u work the same way , many of my jewish and christine friends said no … as they think that human nature tends to flaunt away some times or another. in hinduism there are no rules as women were sentenced to die along with there deceased husband “satee” is there any hindu scripture that puts a condition on it, NO, If the husband dies the wife has to die with him , that even burnt alive. Well there are explicit rules in the Quran but the conditions to follow it are near to impossible (for example adultry , 4 gawahs). Thats why laws are derived from the punishments quoted in Koran so that Law is upheld and no one goes unpunished also.

do enlighten us…
PSme being a mula is far from truth as my friends would say :rotfl: but certainly is a noble thought.
PPS I think u know better …its not being a maulvi … its the low quality that u showed in one of ur threads.

52

Dear Poodenay_ki_Chutney,

don't make these guys think too hard ... they may burst a seal!

Anyway, back to basics ...

53

PakistaniAbroad,

[quote]
Originally posted by PA:

Your argument is basically "Argumentum ad ignorantiam" means "argument from ignorance". The fallacy occurs when it's argued that something must be true, simply because it hasn't been proved false. Or, equivalently, when it is argued that something must be false because it hasn't been proved true.
[/quote]

For someone who claims to follow the Qur’aan, I’m surprised that you have failed to notice that the divinity of the Qur’aan can easily be proven, for one, through the scientific facts mentioned in the verses themselves. Anyone can see that the Qur’aan proves its factual and Divine status. Anyone except you and a hand full ‘wannabe glory hunters’ that is! Can it possibly be a case of "Argumentum ad ignorantiam"?

[quote]
Originally posted by PA:

Burden of Proof is on YOU, and not on CH, NYA, Roman or anyone else who challenges the divine nature of the Qur'an. They don't have to 'disprove' your claim, rather you have to prove it.
[/quote]

“Ad PakAbroadum cometh ignorantiam” by any chance? Actually, the onus of proof lies with Chaltahai in this case, because if you’d bothered reading my initial post, you would have noticed that it was CH who implied that Religion is based on faith and not fact. My response was to his initial statement in a previous thread. So the burden of proof lies with him. Had I been first to say that I can prove that my faith is a result of Islamic facts, then the onus would have been with me. However, as he, Roman, Ny, nor yourself are able to defend or explain what you believe, I shall be more than happy to Insha’Allaah prove to you all (if you like) that everything incorporated in Islaam is from a Divine power, and the very existence of this Divine power Himself is a fact, thus our faith as Muslims comes from these facts?

… and Allaah – subhaana wa ta’aala – knows best.

"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

54

Roman,

[quote]
Originally posted by Roman:

You seem to think that somehow faith is inferior to facts in this regard. That is exactly the kind of insecurity I was talking about in the other thread. You are insecure about your faith, and that's why you keep insisting people to accept it as based on facts and eventually come along the way (i.e. by converting to Islam under the pretense that you're saving them from hellfire).
[/quote]

Please, allow me to address your grievances …

Firstly, I have not said anywhere that faith is inferior to facts. You may blindly be led astray by your whims that cause these emotional outbursts like a smoke signal with a dead battery, but I for one look for proofs and evidences before putting faith in anything.

Secondly, ‘Insecure about my faith’? For someone who cannot explain the basis of his own beliefs, the words of Allaah strike fear in your heart, but you are too arrogant to accept the truth even it were to bite you on the nose.

Thirdly, I have not ‘insisted’ to anybody anywhere on the forum to accept Islaam. The problem is, that my invitation to Islaam throws hatred in some hearts like yourself, Ny, CH and PA. It’s like a disease, eating it’s way through your mind, turning you up-side-down inside, while fuelling the fire and animosity in the depths of your hearts – a burnt out heart - a ulcer out of control – destined for an abode: full of emotions, unsure what lies on the other side of death, your anxiety throws up before your thoughts!

[quote]
Originally posted by Roman:

I do have faith myself, like anybody else in the world. We all have faith in varying forms and in varying things. But I do not require anybody's endorsement to prove it to the world or to myself.
[/quote]

Now that’s an insecurity if I ever heard of it!

"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

55

[quote]
Originally posted by MiniMe:

**I think its a false assumption that you use the facts to discard the insecurities you have. Rather facts can be used to enhance your faith, which you already have.

"Luring" people to your faith based on facts is not out of the insecurity of the person, which is inviting you into his faith rather the opposite.**
[/quote]

Exactly!

[quote]
Originally posted my ammar:

Chaltahai: maybe thats exactly why Hasnain wanted people to focus on the facts as compared to just pulling in blind belief. right?
[/quote]

Precisely!

"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

56

Chaltahai,

[quote]
Originally posted by Chaltahai:

**Ammar: If circular logic is fact according to you, then we have nothing to discuss. I have yet to see the post from Hasnain where he proves factually by contemporary evidence from the 7th century A.D., not by Koran, that Koran is the word of god.

thanks,

CH**
[/quote]

Finally, we might be getting somewhere, now that the burden of proof has been rotated to me, as you were unable to defend your own words.

At last we’re toddling a little here, and you know what? I think i’m going to start calling you 'Chalta-pirta-hai', following your first few steps of reality. It was tough, but we made it!

Look out for another thread proving the Divinity of the Qur’aan, to follow insha’Allaah.

You’ve done well! You’re way ahead of Nyahmadi, PA and Roman … but now that you’re finally stepping around, however unbalanced it may seem, let’s see if we can help you to walk!

regards

"No leaf falls except that He knows of it, and no rain drop forms except that He has willed it."

57

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *

**My original reply to your "mix-up" charge, was that Muslims claimed the Christian/Jewish God as their own, thus God and Allah are the same being. They added their own desert twist to it, claiming to know Chrisitianity better than the Christians. Muslims claim Christian roots, Christians make no such claims in regards to Islam.

And by the way, most Christians I speak to consider Jesus Christ the Son of God, their Lord and Saviour, not their "God". That is a big misconception among Muslims around here.**
[/QUOTE]

Duh!

What's the difference b/w God & Lord

58

Suffice to say I still haven't figured out what is the issue here.

Faith is faith & not absolute provable scientific fact! That's why its called faith (DUH) & for that very reason who do have faith are suppose to be rewarded & those who don't are supposed to be punished. If it was so crystal clear or some litmus test could be done in some laboratory than whats the purpose of haven & hell?

You can't prove that soul exists but science also have no explaination how a person can have true dreams about future.

59

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ahmadjee: *
Suffice to say I still haven't figured out what is the issue here.

Faith is faith & not absolute provable scientific fact! That's why its called faith (DUH) & for that very reason who do have faith are suppose to be rewarded & those who don't are supposed to be punished.
[/QUOTE]

Ahmadjee-

Faith is not based on blind assumptions or false pretenses. It is based on reasoning and facts. Perhaps not all the facts are understandable to us but at the same time, there are innumerable facts mentioned in Islaam which we are seeing supported by modern science.

All-
Why is it that we have no trouble questioning what we learn in school as facts? We take it for absolute value, none of us has seen any of the planets we learn about in 1st grade yet we believe in it because we're told. We see hazy pictures which we can't decipher what it is yet we believe whatever we're told. When this same science we believe with no doubt supports the facts found in the Quraan, we still have trouble believing in it.

PA-
It takes only one contradicting fact to disprove something. Hasnain can provide infinite facts yet you can argue that his statement is not factual. So why not provide that one contradiction, if there is one.

60

<>

What are you talking about? You are the one who said that Islam is based on facts. You are the one who started this thread due to some uncontrollable spasm to justify your statement. I have since asked three times to provide contemporary evidence not from the Koran that Koran is the word of god. And you are still pulling your pud.

<>

This high-browed attitude is one reason why everytime you open your mouth a whole lot of nothing comes out.

<>

I have lost all FAITH in your Facts. When I see it I will believe it. :)

<>

What your itsy-bitsy mind fails to comprehend is that what makes Islam a strong religion is not blind rhetoric like yours but faith in the message.