First wife's permission

Re: First wife's permission

Well, Mirch, if you have read out the last address of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), so you might have noticed that they have narrated that "You have rights over your wives and your wives have rights over you".

Under the light of these Golden words, one thing is quite clear and no need to go in depth, that she has right over you, right of asking, right of saying, right in your affairs, personal or not personal, she is your life and complete part of your life, how could you say that her permission is not necessary?.

Hven't you heard or read that Hadis, whose theme is that (Tum me se sab se Acha woh he jo apne gher walo k sath acha he).

Acha person is not who do everything without taking permission of his wife especially. No women in this world want to share her love.

hhhhh, its very lengthy debate to discuss. but ultimately, its not as that go and marry and don't ask from first wife.

Re: First wife’s permission

This kind of twisted logic is used by Christian Missionaries too who say that Quran says that All Muslims will go to hell.
With the help of twisted logic I or you can prove anything for example look below:

  • There will be no one of you who will not enter it (Hell).
    This was an inevitable decree of your Lord.
    Afterwards he may save some of the pious, God-fearing Muslims out of the burning fire.
    – Sura 19:71-72

    Or as Arberry translates it more literally:

  • No one of you there is, but he shall go down to it; That for thy Lord is a thing decreed, determined. Then We shall deliver those that were god-fearing; and the evildoers We shall leave there, hobbling on their knees.
    – Sura 19:71-72

    This verse tells clearly that all Muslims [everybody] will go to Hell, (inevitable, decreed, determined) and only some of them will eventually be rescued from Hell, while others will be left there forever.
    Obviously, it cannot be that all go through hell (Sura 19:71) and that martyrs go directly to paradise, being spared hell, and “they live (present tense), finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.”

[HR][/HR] Besides being contradictory, Sura 19:71-72 must be incredibly disturbing to Muslims, who can only look forward to go to Hell when they die. At least it was disturbing to Sultan Muhammad Khan, who was moved to carefully study everything that Islam says about salvation and later became a Christian because of his research. You can read about this in his testimony.
Side remark on Sura 9:111 stating that “theirs is the garden: they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah?” – There are no such passages in the Torah or the Gospel which promise paradise to those slain in a military battle for God. This is another false claim in the Qur’an. I am not sure there is even any such concept as us fighting a military battle for God. It is usually God who fights for us. God is much more powerful and glorious that he needs our weapons or strength to fight for him.

Re: First wife's permission

Adoption? Should a woman be allowed to sleep with another man given her husband is sterile? immoral!

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2. She is so sick or handicapped that she cannot perform wifely duties and take care of the kids and husband.
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Hire a maid? If a husband is not capable of earning money, shouldn't she be able to marry a 2nd husband? Immoral!

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3. They are so rich that she does not care if he has one or four wives.
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Work on the existing marriage? Should he not care either if she wants to marry another man and stay in this marriage too?

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4. For some reasons he wants a divorce and she wants to stay in marriage for sake of kids , her insecurities etc.
[/QUOTE]

then he's an A-hole for not caring about his children and wife. This is the case most of the time. The man falls for another woman but is still married and would opt for divorce first but since the poor wife has no place to go since she is too busy taking care of HIS children and cooking and cleaning for him. She really has no choice but to be OK with him bringing a sautan on her. Pathetic excuse for a human being.

Argh..I am so mad! I need to cool down.. I am out of here and not returning ever (ok maybe later)

Re: First wife’s permission

:mirch:
She wanted to know the scenarios when a women might allow her husband to go and marry another woman.
These are the situations I know from life where it has happened.
We are not discussing moral or immoral in this thread. Are we ?
Yes you need to calm down and take a break from GS for some time. It is a Pakistani forum and Islam is religion of majority of people on these forums. Majority of people will not agree with your views, philosophy, ideology and beliefs and having a discussions with those who do not share your views , philosophy , ideology and beliefs gives you jitters then you will be better off by staying away from these discussions.
Personally to me if someone is having a civilized discussion with me without use of any superlatives and giving me arguments against my views, beliefs, ideology and philosophy I have no qualms about it. It does not make my heart beat faster or gives me high blood pressure.
If someone gets personal then I add them to my ignore list and that ends those discussions with them.
I know you are not using those superlatives against me or my ideology , philosophy , views or beliefs but still you are using superlatives where they are not needed. :naraz:

Re: First wife's permission

but then the nikah is not valid if he is not being fair and just to both wives because obviously he would have made one extremely unhappy......

Re: First wife’s permission

You are right. I am sorry.. :hinna:

I just get so frustrated sometimes. I am still in the process of learning to respect others’ opinions. :sid:

Re: First wife’s permission

:k:
Apology accepted . Just because I enjoy discussions with smart folks only. :snooty:

Re: First wife’s permission

Thanks! :blush:

Re: First wife’s permission

Relaaaxxx @Theorist ! You are thinking on a complete opposite level. But at least am looking at your POV with a calm mind. Even I used to think exactly the same way a year or two back..and I believed that this ruling of Islam was very discriminating.

I just have a question: I say am an average non-religious person and I don’t drink alcohol or I don’t believe in being sexually active other than that one person whom I would marry or be in a long time relationship because I believe that:
-alcohol is detrimental to my health (no religious reasons here just pure medical knowledge of alcohol leading to serious liver diseases).
-i am afraid of getting STDs or unwanted pregnancies out of wedlock
But where I live drinking alcohol or being sexually active is allowed as per law. Just because I am *allowed *to drink would I do it?

When we marry someone we know that we can leave them if we want. Men have a right to divorce as well and women can ask for it too (in Islam) and legally either of them could divorce each other. Since it is allowed isn’t that unfair too? And since legally we have a free will over that too would you want to divorce your husband just for the sake of it being lawful?

So even if polygamy is permissible in Islam, it doesn’t mean every *sane *man would want to marry twice or thrice etc. And about you saying that a woman too should be allowed to be in a polygamous marriage. I think it’s ridiculous. For her it would mean double the responsiblity double the chance of getting through birth issues, double homes to look after and two people to please at the same time. How can she balance that now? And frankly can we imagine being intimate and in love with two people at the same time? For me it is unthinkable.

Men are allowed to marry only and only if they think they can balance equally b/w all his wives. Which ofcourse isn’t easy. Even Allah Himself has warned that:

And you will never be able to be equal [in feeling] between wives, even if you should strive [to do so]. So do not incline completely [toward one] and leave another hanging. **An***d if you amend [your affairs] and fear Allah **- then indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful (4:129)

*and in this other verse which has already been mentioned it is said that IF you can’t do justice then marry only one wife. So if a person is remarrying without *any *valid reason, and not being equal with both wives..then he is actually sinning. We shouldn’t blame some men’s psychotic thinking and exploiting religion to their convenience to religion itself IMO.

And the reason I believe polygamy is permissible is:

Supposedly if a married man fears sinning or getting into an extra marital affair he should *openly *marry that woman and be responsible for *both *of them financially and legally as well as emotionally and physically. (and it really isn’t easy and in this way he’s accountable to two whole families)

Remember the thread in Life1 where this lady said that the guy is going to marry somebody else but would be living with her too. We all were appalled at the lack of that lady’s self esteem and self worth. Now if he had the balls and guts and if he follows Islam accurately then polygamy in this case could have helped that woman and prevented her from living in sin and would have given her future children a name, home and financial support etc.

Re: First wife's permission

^You got it all wrong. My problem is why is this injustice even allowed from the divine. We are not talking about some men making whatever rules they felt suited them best. we are talking about the almighty, omnipotent God. For this reason, I don't believe an all knowing God could be this cruel.

Just because something is allowed doesn't mean we should do it but the thought is certainly there. Polygamy would be just as hard on a man as it would be on a woman. AND it is a request/recommendation from God to treat all wives equally more than it's a condition. The truth is there is no good reason for it.

Re: First wife’s permission

Hmmm…my thread got derailed. I only wanted to the Islamic stance as to whether a wife’s permission was needed or not. :bummer:

But I do think there is some confusion as to whether the wife must be informed or not. It seems like there is a difference of opinion.

Re: First wife's permission

^yes there is ..but I gave my answer and a few points in support of the informing bit ....but then again am no scholar so I cant say much

Re: First wife’s permission

Aisi thread kyon kholi? Ghalati to aap ki hai na!:smilestar:

Peace Theorist,

Hence you are not a Muslim and the points you raised seems fairly but I suggest you to ask from a qualified scholar who can answer you in details with more positive way. I would like to answer to you first Para at post # 50. Hope this will help others members too who raised same points but slightly in different way.

Allah SWT said in Holy Quran Chapter 2 verse 228 " Divorced women remain in waiting for three periods, and it is not lawful for them to conceal what Allah has created in their wombs if they believe in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have more right to take them back in this [period] if they want reconciliation. And due to the wives is similar to what is expected of them, according to what is reasonable*. *But the men have a degree over them [in responsibility and authority]. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise."

The difference in economic position between the sexes makes the man's rights and liabilities a little greater than the woman's, subject to this, the sexes are on terms of equality in law, and in certain matters the weaker sex is entitled to special protection.

Moreover Allah SWT said in Chapter 4 verse 34: "Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. Sorighteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand."

This verse refers to the duty of the man to maintain the woman, and to a certain difference in nature between the sexes. In this verse an arabic word "Qawwam", means one who stands firm in another's business (the husband's interest) in his absence, as Allah SWT has protected them. If we take the rendering as in the text, the meaning is: the good wife is obeident and harmonious in her husband's presence, and in his absence guards his reputation and property and her own virtue, as ordained by Allah SWT. If we take the rendering as in the note, we reach the same result in a different way; the good wife, in her husband's absence, remembering how Allah SWT has given her a sheltered position, does everything to justify that position by guarding her own virtue and his reputation and property.

In my previous post, I already quoted and wrote details of the verse 3 Chapter 4. We are all here to seek knowledge. My knowledge is less and i'm not here to win this debate nor i think anyone else trying to win this debate tactically playing with his/her words.

Re: First wife's permission

LKK do you have a reference? Interesting topic though! Though LKK some will say that people can use this clause for their own selfish reasons

Re: First wife's permission

Peace Shak bhai!

The Surah Al Imran and Surah Al Nisa explored all the above in very details, hence i shortened to stick on OP's POV, as the verse not explaining only about one condidtion. It is in very details and all verses are linked to next.

Re: First wife's permission

Before going into discussion, we should recognise that in Islam, duty of someone is right of others and it is responsibility of state to safeguard people’s right (in other words, make people fulfil their duty towards other human)

Note: State has no right or responsibility to make people fulfil their duty towards their deity (Allah) ... but has responsibility that humans fulfil their duty towards other humans including family members’.

From my understanding of Islam ... informing existing wife and permission from existing wife is must, else a person is infringing a ‘contract trust’ and that is sin (as far as I know):

A: When only individuals are involved, state is indifferent: Informing existing wife (wives) of marriage intention and taking her consent (permission) is duty of husband and right of wife (wives).

Why?

In Islam, marriage is contract between a man and a woman to be husband and wife (they are both equal partners in this contract, with different rights and duties). By default, all situations of each other that exist at time of marriage can affect contract of marriage (if known) and thus are part of marriage contract, including existing marriages. Any additional marriage (after contract is made) affects life of wife (as well as husband) and thus previous contract made at the time of marriage changes. Thus, before one partner (husband) goes into further new contract of marriage, other existing contract partner (wife) should know and agree.

For understanding: In most cases marriage contracts (Nikah-nama) are made assuming that the girl would be only wife. At the time of marriage contract if would-be husband says that he intends to marry again later, overwhelming majority of time marriage contract would not happen for that man. Thus, even though this clause may not be written down at time of marriage but it is assumed as unwritten understanding of marriage contracts (just like consummation of marriage is not written down but it is unwritten understanding of marriage contracts). Any change to that understanding of marriage contract has to get agreed between concerned parties (husband and wife) before one party (husband) takes any one-sided step. Hence, informing and consent should be a must. Violation of that understanding without consent is infringing of marriage contract trust.

[Note: Life is full of contracts. Most contracts are made where understanding is part of contract. Rather most clauses in all contracts are based on understanding. If anyone violates that understanding it is always considered as infringement of contract and one can get sued for that too. For instance, simple contract like even renting a room in a house is full with clauses based on understanding. If one rents a room in house, house owner would expect that you look after the room and do not start breaking wall of that room, or that if you are provided with bed than you use it to sleep on it and should not start jumping on it or start using bed as wood for burning, or that if you move within house you should be clothed and not start roaming in house naked, etc, etc. Even in marriage, it is unwritten understanding that wife would not start clandestine relationship with another man and thus if she does, she infringes marriage contarct trust, etc, etc]

Obviously, if husband insist on second marriage without consent of wife, he can, as even though not marrying again is an undeclared understanding of marriage contract but it is not bonding (just like consummation of marriage is not bonding). Anyhow, in such situation, wife should know and should agree to stay in that contract ... else, if she desires, she can show two fingers to her husband, demand Khula and end marriage contract.

B: State’s involvement: Taking permission of second marriage from existing wife.

Husband does not need to take permission from his first wife of second marriage ... as usually, it is only an understanding but not written clause of marriage contract. If Husband thinks that he can do justice and treat both wives equally, he can go into second marriage contract. In such situation, if first wife is not in agreement he is taking risk of Khula, but he can still go ahead.

Anyhow ... In an Islamic state, it is duty of state (or ruler) to safeguard rights of individuals within state. If state could not safeguard rights of individuals than they are not fulfilling their duty, and (ruler) would be answerable on day of judgement. Hence, if state thinks that second marriage by a husband would infringe right of first wife than to safeguard themselves (fulfil their duty of safeguarding wife’s right), state can make laws forcing husband to take permission of first wife for second marriage before allowing such marriage to happen (as is the case in Pakistan).

If state makes such law, it becomes obligatory for Muslims within state to obey such law else they would be disobeying Allah and would be committing sin. Obey ruler (those in power ... or ... authority) is directed by Allah in Quran (4:59) and thus it is obligation of Muslims that they obey state (authority) unless state (authority) gives order for which state is not responsible (that is interfering with man and his ‘mamlaat’ (dealings) with his creator) or gives order that is in obvious contradiction with Quran.

Re: First wife's permission

@Sa1eem you forgot to provide any reference from Quran or hadees without which these are your personal musings , preferences and thoughts . Other Muslims are not obligated to go along with your personal musings , preferences and thoughts.
Nobody here is asking about a court brief which you just presented , people here are talking about what Islam has to say about getting permission from first wife when a man decides to marry a second.

As far as state making laws those laws becoming obligatory for Muslims to follow then what is your advice to people about following those laws made by same state which clash with Islamic guidelines. ( Here I am not referring to secular or non Islamic states).

Re: First wife's permission

^^^
According to Islam means what Islam says. According to Islam, marriage is a contract between a man and a woman. Nikah-Nama is document of that contract where any clause related to contract can be inserted.

What I wrote above is nothing to do with me, my thoughts or preferences, but it is to do with contract (any type of contract) and sanctity of contract (any contract) that Islam approves as well.

What I wrote is that, when contract is made (first marriage) and later events (second marriage) effects individual (wife) of first contract than it is right of affected individual who made first contract (wife) to know of the second contract (second marriage) and agree with the happening of second contract. If second contract is made without informing and taking consent of those who would get effected due to first contract (first wife) than it would be infringement of first contract.

Now you can say that Islam do not recognise sanctity of contracts (that maybe your understanding) but as far as I know, Islam not only recognises sanctity of contracts and right of individuals making contracts, but it is sin if one infringes a contract without consent of parties in contract.

Re: First wife's permission

And those verses are what I have a problem with. Men are not in charge of women and men do not have a degree over women. If this is enforced in our society, a woman as an independent individual will never flourish and that is exactly what I see when i look at the Muslim world. It is these"God given" rights that hold women back and men are able to walk all over them.

All these conditions are invalid when a woman is able to support herself since she doesn't need to answer to anybody. Then try bringing another wife over her, I can't imagine any independent woman not having a problem with it.