Female Prophets

[kprasad]

Re: Female Prophets

You can submit whatever your heart desires. That's not what the OP asked. If a religion had female prophets then it would be a religion conjured up by women? I suppose the pre-requisite for a scholarly and honest approach to answer the OP and religious topics in most instances, would be to first believe in A religion.

Since you do not believe in religions, your own contribution sort of discredits you addressing the topic which is clearly religion oriented.

Perhaps I was mistaken, but I didn't believe this forum to be an echo chamber for like minded people only. My understanding was that civil discussion was encouraged and that ideas were allowed to be challenged. The poster asked a broad question, and didn't limit her audience to Muslims or only like minded people. I have a very specific position on this, and, based on the posters broad question, it's both cogent and relevant.
Perhaps it would behoove you to reexamine the poster's question and reconsider your position:
*
Can anyone think of the names of any female prophets? Religious/spiritual literature usually tends to portray "respected" women as goddesses, saints and/or scholars etc. But I have yet to come upon any religion/philosophy that was actually founded by (and came to light because of) a girl/woman. Is this because there never have been any female prophets OR have there been some, but male prophets have been emphasized more (for whatever reason)? Discuss!*

[Monk]

Re: Female Prophets

@kprasad

Perhaps I was mistaken, but I didn’t believe this forum to be an echo chamber for like minded people only. My understanding was that civil discussion was encouraged and that ideas were allowed to be challenged. The poster asked a broad question, and didn’t limit her audience to Muslims or only like minded people. I have a very specific position on this, and, based on the posters broad question, it’s both cogent and relevant.
Perhaps it would behoove you to reexamine the poster’s question and reconsider your position:
!

Kpersad:
I personally thank you to trust us to tell, what you think.
I would also appreciate, if we have said some thing, which you did not know before, to fact check, and if its true… remember it. So we have less work repeating it.

Thank you.

[kprasad]

Re: Female Prophets

@psyah

Peace kprasad

I’m perfectly capable of saying “god reinforces societal norms” if I want to say that … I am not however saying that at all … you are claiming that I am saying that … I am saying that God sent messengers to people in accordance with how they best receive them. I am also not going to entertain that lunacy of if a prophet came today … I’m a Muslim - prophethood has been completed.

@psyah

The only one doing any conjuring up is you …

Let’s use some everyday examples to determine whether such a notion of “men only x therefore originators must be men” … And as it implies and Teggy has noted … by this logic “female only x therefore originators must be female and mixed men and female x therefore … originators must be of both genders”.

Let get some examples going to ground this imagination you have …

That’s a rather odd assertion. Truth is immutable, and I think you’d agree with me on that. Why then does the truth have to be localized to a specific people and time? If that’s the case, why would a message given to Iron Age people be relevant now? Why hasn’t it been localized again? Also, again, why to only men? Couldn’t a woman deliver the message as well as a man?

[Monk]

Re: Female Prophets

That's a rather odd assertion. Truth is immutable, and I think you'd agree with me on that.

Why then does the truth have to be localized to a specific people and time?
if you look most people who are accepting islam is European women. That proves message is not for "a" time. or favourable to men etc etc..

If that's the case, why would a message given to Iron Age people be relevant now?
(You have to look at the messages to find answers. Borrow quran from library and open randomly... see what you find.)

Why hasn't it been localized again? Also, again, why to only men? Couldn't a woman deliver the message as well as a man?

One of the biggest and most authentic source of islamic tradition is a woman, whom whole world picks on.... but we follow her(ra)

[kprasad]

Re: Female Prophets

That's a rather odd assertion. Truth is immutable, and I think you'd agree with me on that.

Why then does the truth have to be localized to a specific people and time? if you look most people who are accepting islam is European women. That proves message is not for "a" time. or favourable to men etc etc..

If that's the case, why would a message given to Iron Age people be relevant now? (You have to look at the messages to find answers. Borrow quran from library and open randomly... see what you find.)

Why hasn't it been localized again? Also, again, why to only men? Couldn't a woman deliver the message as well as a man?

One of the biggest and most authentic source of islamic tradition is a woman, whom whole world picks on.... but we follow her(ra)

I don't understand your first point. Since the fastest growing "religious affiliation", for the lack of a better or more easily understood term, globally is no religion, are you then saying that agnosticism is more relevant than Islam? Since, more people are becoming agnostic than Muslim.
The point is: Truth is immutable. It's true today, tomorrow, and was true yesterday. Why then, according to what brother psyah said, does it need to be localized? The Pythagorean theorem is always true! The germ theory of disease is always true! None of which, by the way, are described in any religious and 'eternal' truth!
Religions stick to social norms of the time they were created. Men were in positions of power, and religions reflect that.

For future references: I have read the Quran, three times by three different translators.

For your third point: So what? She wasn't a prophet!

[Monk]

Re: Female Prophets

kprasad: I don’t work for nothing
I have to keep inventory. I get that you have now checked prophets have very tough lives.
They suffered through, what ordinary people could not with out breaking apart.

The point is: Truth is immutable. It’s true today, tomorrow, and was true yesterday. Why then, according to what brother psyah said, does it need to be localized? The Pythagorean theorem is always true! The germ theory of disease is always true! None of which, by the way, are described in any religious and ‘eternal’ truth!

If prophet(pbuh) was assassinated in any of the attempt made on him, before he thoroghty became successful on dozens of fronts, you think we get quran intact ?
Or we would have another set of gospels on our hands ?
See it would be very silly of me and you to discuss it hypothetically when it has all played out.
One of the mightiest messenger is Jesus(pbuh).
You don’t find unbroken chain of transmission to his message. So his messages vary some time.

In case of quran, you can find a teacher … and his teacher and his teacher … and his teacher all the way to prophet him self.

I think this is a fact with a secular but open mind can appreciate as well.

But think about it how would it have happened if Prophet was not successful.
Things which were unfolding in front of him were not seen by him or any one around him.
If he did not have “local” type of instruction he would not have made it.
Remember prophet(pbuh) was not God him self, so he was not all knowing.

Religions stick to social norms of the time they were created. Men were in positions of power, and religions reflect that.

Kprasad; pay attention. if religions were about social norms,
why Jeses was put on cross?
why moses had run across read sea?
why muhamad had assassination attempts on him?
why yahha was beheaded ?
(peace be upon them all)

not appreciating some facts(that prophets suffered a great deal), in not cool.

For future references: I have read the Quran, three times by three different translators.
I like that, would tell me any thing you liked ? ther got be one thing at least.

For your third point: So what? She wasn’t a prophet!

ok this is interesting;
there are 2 parts to this.

1-Either you have issue with muslim, accepting some woman for guidance.
Or
2-you believe God discriminated and did not pick a women.

for first, I have shown you we muslim have no issue taking guidance for life from a woman.
for sec, you believe in God:biggthumb:

PS: one thing common in atheists/agnostics and Muslims is we think!! We are supposed to reflect. We dont ask you to just believe.

[psyah]

Re: Female Prophets

That's a rather odd assertion. Truth is immutable, and I think you'd agree with me on that. Why then does the truth have to be localized to a specific people and time? If that's the case, why would a message given to Iron Age people be relevant now? Why hasn't it been localized again? Also, again, why to only men? Couldn't a woman deliver the message as well as a man?

Peace kprasad

What is the odd assertion that I made? This question you asked me about "why does the truth have to be localised to a specific people and time?" Why did you ask me that question? I did not infer anywhere that "truth has to be localised" ... I don't even know what that means ... What does that mean "truth being localised" ...???

Why do I get the feeling that you respond to me in a very strange way ... That conjures up made up assertion that I have not made and insinuates odd things that I have not even said ... I'm not going to stand here and defend myself against what you are saying, except by saying what you have understood is wrong and what you are refuting is not what I have said ...

Iron Age ... sounds old ... But it is an advanced time ... Islam's advent basically ended the Iron Age too ... It was the Age of Enlightenment ... I guess what you mean by localised is why a new messenger has not been sent ... It is because there is no need for another ... One momentous event took place with Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) that did not occur with other prophets (AS) was that he (SAW) had completed the religion and Allah's favour upon mankind and the message he brought is preserved unlike with previous faiths and prophets ...

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Female Prophets

This is funny! Oh the poor founders of religions, with their multiple wives and everything they do being inspired by gods! Was Abraham at the brink of execution? What about Noah? Adam? Was Jesus at the brink of execution? What about Moses? Did Mohamed live the poorest of lives? Think about your answers carefully!

Religions are patriarchal! That's a simple fact.

Why don't men commit sati? Why do religions only prescribe corporal punishments for women only? Are men perfect? Why do women have to cover up? Why can't a woman have multiple husbands simultaneously? Why honor killing of women, and not men?

P.S: Yes all religions were created! As for whole armies and intellectual force, please just take a look at the wars happening in the middle east. All over the same mythology....

My religion doesn't give me a corporal punishment for being a woman. Thanks.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Female Prophets

I think the reason is a lot more simpler:

God knows his creations. He knows men wont listen to women. Simple.

[TLK]

Re: Female Prophets

God knows his creations. He knows men wont listen to women. Simple.

Right. Tou phir ab chup karo na

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: Female Prophets

Errm, before you blame others for confusing the situation, could you clarify and quote exactly where it's written for every Muslim woman to do chehre ka parda.

.

Drope Your arrogance and read it carefully

1-O Prophet, tell Your wives and ur daughters and the woman of Believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognized and not annoyed. ALLAH is ever forgiving and Merciful. AL-QURAN (33:59)

2- And say to the Believing women that they should lower their Gaze and Guard their Modesty, that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must appear therof , that they should draw their head-veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, fathers...... And they should not strike their feets in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. AlQuran (24:31)
I can give more References, but that is enough

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Female Prophets

Drope Your arrogance and read it carefully

1-O Prophet, tell Your wives and ur daughters and the woman of Believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognized and not annoyed. ALLAH is ever forgiving and Merciful. AL-QURAN (33:59)

2- And say to the Believing women that they should lower their Gaze and Guard their Modesty, that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must appear therof , that they should draw their head-veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, fathers...... And they should not strike their feets in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. AlQuran (24:31) I can give more References, but that is enough

In Quran translations I've read - it does not translate as a "head veil". It just translates as a piece of clothing that is to be drawn across their bosoms - so more like as long as your chest figure is covered up. The latter part of that second verse refers more to "shaking thy booty" aka booty dancing/vulgar dancing, etc I guess. And ornaments is a vague phrase. Note how Allah doesn't specify certain body parts, like face/hair etc.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Female Prophets

Also note the part "So they may be recognized".

You can't be recognized if your face is covered.

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: Female Prophets

In Quran translations I've read - it does not translate as a "head veil". It just translates as a piece of clothing that is to be drawn across their bosoms - so more like as long as your chest figure is covered up. The latter part of that second verse refers more to "shaking thy booty" aka booty dancing/vulgar dancing, etc I guess. And ornaments is a vague phrase. Note how Allah doesn't specify certain body parts, like face/hair etc.

Since the Quran is revealed in Arabic language, we must understand, its meanings by reference to the usage and convention of language. Let us turn to the specific verses, "And that, they draw their head-veils(or head-covering) (arabic word khumur-ihinna, used here) on their bosoms".
The word used in the context is "khumur" in Arabic which has been translated as veil or Scarves, the latter is more Precise , for it is the plural of khimar, which has been defined as women's "head covering" a piece of cloth with which a woman covers her head. Root meaning is to cover and Khimar , therefor is the cover or the veil but it has become synonymous with veil with which a woman covers her head. Plural of Khimar is khumur, which is used in Verse "Au- Nur". Acording to Arabic languge, covering of Head is the most important function of khimar, no scholar in past has ever disputed the fact that woman are commanded by ALLAH to cover their head.

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: Female Prophets

Before the mentioning of the Hijab for woman, the QURAN has mentioned the Hijab for men, first. It is mentioned in Surah Nur Ch # 24, verse # 30. It says " They (men) should lower their Gaze n Guard their Modesty". Then in next Verse 31 is for women " Say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze n guard their modesty".
Now for Muslim man, he has to b covered from naval to the Knee. And for Muslim woman, her complete body should be covered, the only Part that can be seen is the face and hands up to the wrist. If she wishes to cover them, she is most welcome, but it is not compulsory

[kprasad]

Re: Female Prophets

@Monk

kprasad: I don’t work for nothing
I have to keep inventory. I get that you have now checked prophets have very tough lives.
They suffered through, what ordinary people could not with out breaking apart.

The point is: Truth is immutable. It’s true today, tomorrow, and was true yesterday. Why then, according to what brother psyah said, does it need to be localized? The Pythagorean theorem is always true! The germ theory of disease is always true! None of which, by the way, are described in any religious and ‘eternal’ truth!

If prophet(pbuh) was assassinated in any of the attempt made on him, before he thoroghty became successful on dozens of fronts, you think we get quran intact ?
Or we would have another set of gospels on our hands ?
See it would be very silly of me and you to discuss it hypothetically when it has all played out.
One of the mightiest messenger is Jesus(pbuh).
You don’t find unbroken chain of transmission to his message. So his messages vary some time.

In case of quran, you can find a teacher … and his teacher and his teacher … and his teacher all the way to prophet him self.

I think this is a fact with a secular but open mind can appreciate as well.

But think about it how would it have happened if Prophet was not successful.
Things which were unfolding in front of him were not seen by him or any one around him.
If he did not have “local” type of instruction he would not have made it.
Remember prophet(pbuh) was not God him self, so he was not all knowing.

Religions stick to social norms of the time they were created. Men were in positions of power, and religions reflect that.

Kprasad; pay attention. if religions were about social norms,
why Jeses was put on cross?
why moses had run across read sea?
why muhamad had assassination attempts on him?
why yahha was beheaded ?
(peace be upon them all)

not appreciating some facts(that prophets suffered a great deal), in not cool.

For future references: I have read the Quran, three times by three different translators.
I like that, would tell me any thing you liked ? ther got be one thing at least.

For your third point: So what? She wasn’t a prophet!

ok this is interesting;
there are 2 parts to this.

1-Either you have issue with muslim, accepting some woman for guidance.
Or
2-you believe God discriminated and did not pick a women.

for first, I have shown you we muslim have no issue taking guidance for life from a woman.
for sec, you believe in God:biggthumb:

PS: one thing common in atheists/agnostics and Muslims is we think!! We are supposed to reflect. We dont ask you to just believe.

Brother Monk,

With all due respect, I have no clue what you’re arguing here. I do want to respond, but I’m failing to understand what you’re saying. However, I’ll respond to what I believe what you’re saying.

So what if prophets suffered? The issue here is, why aren’t any prophets of any major religions women? Are you saying that women can’t suffer? Are you saying women have a lower threshold for pain than men do? If you are, you’re contrary to scientific evidence.

By prophet, I’ll assume you’re speaking about Mohammed. He had assassination attempts against him because he was a man of war. That is expected.

Jesus was on the cross because he wanted to be. Depending on the tradition, he was even given the option of not going to the cross.

Mosses crossing the Red Sea is an interesting issue you raise. You understand that Christians, Jews, and Muslims see the event very differently? So, which mythological tradition are you basing this assertion on? Also, god also tried to kill Moses several times and didn’t succeed! What does that say?

Again, John the Baptist being beheaded, and the reason for such, depends on the tradition you’re basing this on. The simple answer is, he was beheaded for treason.

Perhaps with the exception of John the Baptist, it’s hard to argue that prophets had constant threats on their lives.

None of the above again explains why women aren’t prophets!

I’ll reiterate, guidance and supposed divine revelation aren’t the same thing!

Like other religious texts, I found no redeeming qualities, for a mondern age, in the Quran. I would say, though, it’s less brutal and violent than the bible, it’s less misogynistic than the Hindu scriptures, and more specific about laws than others.

[kprasad]

Re: Female Prophets

Peace kprasad

What is the odd assertion that I made? This question you asked me about "why does the truth have to be localised to a specific people and time?" Why did you ask me that question? I did not infer anywhere that "truth has to be localised" ... I don't even know what that means ... What does that mean "truth being localised" ...???

Why do I get the feeling that you respond to me in a very strange way ... That conjures up made up assertion that I have not made and insinuates odd things that I have not even said ... I'm not going to stand here and defend myself against what you are saying, except by saying what you have understood is wrong and what you are refuting is not what I have said ...

Iron Age ... sounds old ... But it is an advanced time ... Islam's advent basically ended the Iron Age too ... It was the Age of Enlightenment ... I guess what you mean by localised is why a new messenger has not been sent ... It is because there is no need for another ... One momentous event took place with Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) that did not occur with other prophets (AS) was that he (SAW) had completed the religion and Allah's favour upon mankind and the message he brought is preserved unlike with previous faiths and prophets ...

I am saying that God sent messengers to people in accordance with how they best receive them.

My point is: Truth is immutable. The truth is the truth. Why does the truth need to be considered for the manner it's received? Why can't the truth be delivered by women?

Everything else, though I have rebuttals, deviates from the original assertion. Why are there no female prophets?

One thing I would add: The Quran, as is the Bible, and Gita, Ramayan, etc., are full of incidents of the deity changing her/his mind. What makes you think this didn't happen again? There are lots of people who consider themselves Muslim, but believe other prophets have come...but alas none of them are women either!

[psyah]

Re: Female Prophets

@kprasad

My point is: Truth is immutable. The truth is the truth. Why does the truth need to be considered for the manner it's received? Why can't the truth be delivered by women?

Everything else, though I have rebuttals, deviates from the original assertion. Why are there no female prophets?

One thing I would add: The Quran, as is the Bible, and Gita, Ramayan, etc., are full of incidents of the deity changing her/his mind. What makes you think this didn't happen again? There are lots of people who consider themselves Muslim, but believe other prophets have come...but alas none of them are women either!

Peace kprasad

You ask why are there no female prophets? I think that is not a question I can answer, because I do not say there are no female prophets, rather I say that there are no female prophets that we know about ... If you have any good candidates and we can analyse them on a case by case basis, God-Willing.

[lvlalang]

Re: Female Prophets

Why there were no women prophets...?

Well the answer is simple, A women cannot stay "pure" 24/7, 365 days a year because of her monthly periods ..!
A man however can stay "pure" for the whole of his life time..

by "Pure" I mean PAKIZA in Islamic sence!

[Monk]

Re: Female Prophets

@kprasad

Brother Monk,

With all due respect, I have no clue what you're arguing here. I do want to respond, but I'm failing to understand what you're saying. However, I'll respond to what I believe what you're saying.

So what if prophets suffered? The issue here is, why aren't any prophets of any major religions women? Are you saying that women can't suffer? Are you saying women have a lower threshold for pain than men do? If you are, you're contrary to scientific evidence.

By prophet, I'll assume you're speaking about Mohammed. He had assassination attempts against him because he was a man of war. That is expected.

Jesus was on the cross because he wanted to be. Depending on the tradition, he was even given the option of not going to the cross.

Mosses crossing the Red Sea is an interesting issue you raise. You understand that Christians, Jews, and Muslims see the event very differently? So, which mythological tradition are you basing this assertion on? Also, god also tried to kill Moses several times and didn't succeed! What does that say? :)

Again, John the Baptist being beheaded, and the reason for such, depends on the tradition you're basing this on. The simple answer is, he was beheaded for treason.

Perhaps with the exception of John the Baptist, it's hard to argue that prophets had constant threats on their lives.

None of the above again explains why women aren't prophets!

I'll reiterate, guidance and supposed divine revelation aren't the same thing!

Like other religious texts, I found no redeeming qualities, for a mondern age, in the Quran. I would say, though, it's less brutal and violent than the bible, it's less misogynistic than the Hindu scriptures, and more specific about laws than others.

I have only little time to reply.

Please tell the reason of your statement, "women are not prophet because men made religions." (in my words)

It clearly imply, to you.
1-Prophet ship is some of reward.

Then I showed you, we don't have issue taking guidance from woman.

So what are you complaining about???

also
1-prophet had attempt on his life, BEFORE he took up armed struggle!
2-him family and friends were boycotted ........and starved for 2 years, talking to them.. doing trade with them was all forbidden.....,some say it resulted his beloved wife's death. BEFORE arms struggle.