Female Prophets

[lvlalang]

Re: Female Prophets

@Monk

I have only little time to reply.

Please tell the reason of your statement, "women are not prophet because men made religions." (in my words) It clearly imply, to you. 1-Prophet ship is some of reward.

Then I showed you, we don't have issue taking guidance from woman.

So what are you complaining about???

also 1-prophet had attempt on his life, BEFORE he took up armed struggle! 2-him family and friends were boycotted ........and starved for 2 years, talking to them.. doing trade with them was all forbidden.....,some say it resulted his beloved wife's death. BEFORE arms struggle.

Brother,
I already posted a reply to your question .. I think you didn't read. No Problem here it is once again.

Why there were no women prophets...?

Well the answer is simple, A women cannot stay "pure" 24/7, 365 days a year because of her monthly periods ..!
A man however can stay "pure" for the whole of his life time..

by "Pure" I mean PAKIZA in Islamic sence!

This answer is explained in the Sunnah!!

[kprasad]

Re: Female Prophets

@psyah

Peace kprasad

You ask why are there no female prophets? I think that is not a question I can answer, because I do not say there are no female prophets, rather I say that there are no female prophets that we know about ... If you have any good candidates and we can analyse them on a case by case basis, God-Willing.

Brother Psyah,

You're an introspective and thoughtful human being. Your religious views are tempered by logic and humanity. Your co-religionists, including adherents of other faiths, are largely unlike you. Just read this thread to get an understanding why people believe there are no female prophets. You, to your credit, don't dismiss the idea and have, in my opinion, a good answer based on your scripture. However, other's, based on the same scripture, have the answer that is most widely accepted. I would also submit, those unlike you, have the most credible answer based on scripture: religions consider women inferior because religions are created by men based on local customs.

[kprasad]

Re: Female Prophets

@""Monk""

I have only little time to reply.

Please tell the reason of your statement, “women are not prophet because men made religions.” (in my words)
It clearly imply, to you.
1-Prophet ship is some of reward.

Brother Monk, there is no need to imply. I am saying that prophets are men because religions are made by men. The religions reflect the customs and cultures of time they were created.

@Monk

Then I showed you, we don’t have issue taking guidance from woman.

So what are you complaining about???

also
1-prophet had attempt on his life, BEFORE he took up armed struggle!
2-him family and friends were boycotted …and starved for 2 years, talking to them.. doing trade with them was all forbidden…,some say it resulted his beloved wife’s death. BEFORE arms struggle.

To re-reiterate: Guidance does not equal divine revelation!

[psyah]

Re: Female Prophets

@kprasad

Brother Psyah,

You're an introspective and thoughtful human being. Your religious views are tempered by logic and humanity. Your co-religionists, including adherents of other faiths, are largely unlike you. Just read this thread to get an understanding why people believe there are no female prophets. You, to your credit, don't dismiss the idea and have, in my opinion, a good answer based on your scripture. However, other's, based on the same scripture, have the answer that is most widely accepted. I would also submit, those unlike you, have the most credible answer based on scripture: religions consider women inferior because religions are created by men based on local customs.

Peace kprasad

Thank you for the sentiments ... the problem with the notion that there "are no female prophets" is that one needs to assert evidence for it, we do not have evidence to suggest that "there are no female prophets" also we cannot say that religions are man-made on local customs since that would suggest females and males differ significantly - are you saying that women do not make up religions and men do? And if so - how can you prove that? How can it even be proven that men made any religion up on the proviso that the prophets were men?

Your argument is taking this form:

There are no female prophets therefore men made religion

Are you hence suggesting that:

If there were male and female prophets therefore God made religion?

If not then your argument for contention is misplaced. In order to have a valid argument is that when you change the premises the conclusion changes. So if in all three possible cases the conclusion does not change then you have to conclude that the inference being made connecting the premises with the conclusion is wrong.

If A then B
If not A then C, where C is not B.

If A is the premises - "There are no female prophets"
B is "religion is man-made"

It is a logical requirement that if not A - "there are some female prophets" hence C must be "religion is not man-made" ... If it can be shown that having female prophets will necessarily rule out man-made religions then you have yourself a valid argument - but you will not have that valid argument.

One can just as easily say if there are male and female prophets then men and women made religion ... or if there are only female prophets then women made religion. This is happening because you are connecting two things that have no cause and effect relationship that is necessitated in the logical sense.

[kprasad]

Re: Female Prophets

Peace kprasad

Thank you for the sentiments ... the problem with the notion that there "are no female prophets" is that one needs to assert evidence for it, we do not have evidence to suggest that "there are no female prophets" also we cannot say that religions are man-made on local customs since that would suggest females and males differ significantly - are you saying that women do not make up religions and men do? And if so - how can you prove that? How can it even be proven that men made any religion up on the proviso that the prophets were men?

Your argument is taking this form:

There are no female prophets therefore men made religion

Are you hence suggesting that:

If there were male and female prophets therefore God made religion?

If not then your argument for contention is misplaced. In order to have a valid argument is that when you change the premises the conclusion changes. So if in all three possible cases the conclusion does not change then you have to conclude that the inference being made connecting the premises with the conclusion is wrong.

If A then B If not A then C, where C is not B.

If A is the premises - "There are no female prophets" B is "religion is man-made"

It is a logical requirement that if not A - "there are some female prophets" hence C must be "religion is not man-made" ... If it can be shown that having female prophets will necessarily rule out man-made religions then you have yourself a valid argument - but you will not have that valid argument.

One can just as easily say if there are male and female prophets then men and women made religion ... or if there are only female prophets then women made religion. This is happening because you are connecting two things that have no cause and effect relationship that is necessitated in the logical sense.

My argument is: Men made religions, so there are no female prophets.

You have my assertion backwards. Having rectified your understanding, your above premise, if somewhat flawed, is a good basis for my rebuttal.

Men made religions. Religions reflect the culture, and superstitions, of the period and location they were created in. Therefore, there are no female prophets.

Your assertion is: There is a god. It's your particular variety, your one true god over the other myriad of one true gods. Yours is the most authentic and last prophet, over the other myriad of authentic and last prophets. Also, divine revelations seems to have only been give to men, ignoring half of humanity.

My evidence for my assertions are religious books. In specific, the Quran, Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith, Bible, Ramayana, and Mahabharata.

[psyah]

Re: Female Prophets

My argument is: Men made religions, so there are no female prophets.

You have my assertion backwards. Having rectified your understanding, your above premise, if somewhat flawed, is a good basis for my rebuttal.

Men made religions. Religions reflect the culture, and superstitions, of the period and location they were created in. Therefore, there are no female prophets.

Your assertion is: There is a god. It's your particular variety, your one true god over the other myriad of one true gods. Yours is the most authentic and last prophet, over the other myriad of authentic and last prophets. Also, divine revelations seems to have only been give to men, ignoring half of humanity.

My evidence for my assertions are religious books. In specific, the Quran, Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith, Bible, Ramayana, and Mahabharata.

I do not have it the wrong way round ... at the beginning of this thread you are making an argument that religions are made by men, because there are no female prophets. Now, on the other hand you have switched and are saying - "men made religions therefore there will be no female prophets" ... If this is your final say - then I still cannot agree with the now premise - that men made religions, that is an unsubstantiated claim.

Coming back the original argument - There could be other reasons why there are no female prophets - which is what we have given ... Females are not like males - so the roles of men and women are differently ordained by God ... So God would be consistent to keep men as prophets - or if it is about to whom they were sent then it would infer women could have been prophets to matriarchal societies and so on ... if you eliminate other possibilities of there being "no female prophets" then you can argue your case perhaps ... otherwise it is not a valid argument, because it leaves open other possibilities that are more plausible than your suggestion.

[kchughtai]

Re: Female Prophets

@psyah

Peace kprasad

You ask why are there no female prophets? I think that is not a question I can answer, because I do not say there are no female prophets, rather I say that there are no female prophets that we know about ... If you have any good candidates and we can analyse them on a case by case basis, God-Willing.

Psyah sb,

how about these verses

12:110) And We sent not before thee *as Messengers *any but men, whom We inspired, from among the people of the towns. Have they not then travelled in the earth and seen what was the end of those before them? And surely, the abode of the Hereafter is better for those who fear God. Will you not then understand?

16:44) And We sent not as Messengers before thee but men to whom We sent revelation, so ask those who possess the Reminder, if you know not.

21:8) And We sent none as Messengers before thee but men to whom We sent revelations. So ask the people of the Reminder, if you know not.

word rijal (men) is used not bashar (humans)

[psyah]

Re: Female Prophets

Psyah sb,

how about these verses

12:110) And We sent not before thee *as Messengers *any but men, whom We inspired, from among the people of the towns. Have they not then travelled in the earth and seen what was the end of those before them? And surely, the abode of the Hereafter is better for those who fear God. Will you not then understand?

16:44) And We sent not as Messengers before thee but men to whom We sent revelation, so ask those who possess the Reminder, if you know not.

21:8) And We sent none as Messengers before thee but men to whom We sent revelations. So ask the people of the Reminder, if you know not.

word rijal (men) is used not bashar (humans)

Peace brother kchughtai

Indeed these verses might be useful for supporting the notion that law bearing prophets (Messengers) were always men. They do not necessarily negate females from amongst the Anbiya. And Allah (SWT) knows Best.

[bella88]

Re: Female Prophets

My argument is: Men made religions, so there are no female prophets.

You have my assertion backwards. Having rectified your understanding, your above premise, if somewhat flawed, is a good basis for my rebuttal.

Men made religions. Religions reflect the culture, and superstitions, of the period and location they were created in. Therefore, there are no female prophets.

Your assertion is: There is a god. It's your particular variety, your one true god over the other myriad of one true gods. Yours is the most authentic and last prophet, over the other myriad of authentic and last prophets. Also, divine revelations seems to have only been give to men, ignoring half of humanity.

My evidence for my assertions are religious books. In specific, the Quran, Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith, Bible, Ramayana, and Mahabharata.

very well said kprasad. i was going to post something very similar but you beat me to it

[Monk]

Re: Female Prophets

@kprasad

Brother Monk,

With all due respect, I have no clue what you're arguing here. I do want to respond, but I'm failing to understand what you're saying. However, I'll respond to what I believe what you're saying.

So what if prophets suffered? The issue here is, why aren't any prophets of any major religions women? Are you saying that women can't suffer? Are you saying women have a lower threshold for pain than men do? If you are, you're contrary to scientific evidence.

no.... more like it sounds like you are saying women were so dumb they could not invent a religion.

[quote]

By prophet, I'll assume you're speaking about Mohammed. He had assassination attempts against him because he was a man of war. That is expected.

Jesus was on the cross because he wanted to be. Depending on the tradition, he was even given the option of not going to the cross.

[/quote]

so Jesus was suicidal according to you ??

[quote]

Mosses crossing the Red Sea is an interesting issue you raise. You understand that Christians, Jews, and Muslims see the event very differently? So, which mythological tradition are you basing this assertion on? Also, god also tried to kill Moses several times and didn't succeed! What does that say? :)

[/quote]

there is more to mosses life then your token introductry staemant about red see.

[quote]

Again, John the Baptist being beheaded, and the reason for such, depends on the tradition you're basing this on. The simple answer is, he was beheaded for treason.

Perhaps with the exception of John the Baptist, it's hard to argue that prophets had constant threats on their lives.

[/quote]

[quote]

None of the above again explains why women aren't prophets!

[/quote]

no.. twist please.
its you who need to explain why women could not be prophet.

so what you have said, conclude following results.
1-women were not smart enough.
2-God did not pick women.
3-or men had trouble respecting or taking guidance from women.

point 3 was proven wrong to y0u.

now explain, what your statement meant ??

[quote]

I'll reiterate, guidance and supposed divine revelation aren't the same thing!

Like other religious texts, I found no redeeming qualities, for a mondern age, in the Quran. I would say, though,

[/quote]

[quote]

t's less brutal and violent than the bible,

[/quote]

how ?

[quote]

it's less misogynistic than the Hindu scriptures, and more specific about laws than others.
[/quote]

how ?

[kprasad]

Re: Female Prophets

I do not have it the wrong way round ... at the beginning of this thread you are making an argument that religions are made by men, because there are no female prophets. Now, on the other hand you have switched and are saying - "men made religions therefore there will be no female prophets" ... If this is your final say - then I still cannot agree with the now premise - that men made religions, that is an unsubstantiated claim.

Coming back the original argument - There could be other reasons why there are no female prophets - which is what we have given ... Females are not like males - so the roles of men and women are differently ordained by God ... So God would be consistent to keep men as prophets - or if it is about to whom they were sent then it would infer women could have been prophets to matriarchal societies and so on ... if you eliminate other possibilities of there being "no female prophets" then you can argue your case perhaps ... otherwise it is not a valid argument, because it leaves open other possibilities that are more plausible than your suggestion.

Just so we're clear, this is my first response on this thread:

The reason religions don't have females in positions of authority is that the religions were created by men.

As to your other point, none of what you assert is backed by your scripture. As a matter of fact, most scriptures explicitly state that only men were prophets.

[psyah]

Re: Female Prophets

Just so we're clear, this is my first response on this thread:

As to your other point, none of what you assert is backed by your scripture. As a matter of fact, most scriptures explicitly state that only men were prophets.

Please provide evidence for the bold statement above. I will not leave this point, so get ready ...

coming back to your initial point ... You were very clearly asked to provide evidence that men made religions ... You have failed to provide that evidence instead you are trying to play a cat and mouse game by setting your premise and conclusion to be causes of each other ... So far it seems like circular argumentation.

Throughout time there have been many cases where men have loved women, like their wives or their mothers so much if men made religions could have made their own women to assume positions of power ... And if religions were really made by men ... It would not matter to create some female prophet in the past, while they still retain their masculine control ... The other problem is that history contradicts you ... There is evidence to show that men didn't make religion, but were compelled to abide by it. Islam for example has more responsibility for men ... There are clear verses that show the close companions and at times the Prophets themselves (AS) were corrected and told to do something other than what they desired.

This shows there is an authority above men ... All religions will have some tradition of the obligation of men to protect their women ... If men made religion then why would they oblige themselves of that?

It is our claim that men and women have different roles ... as it states in the Qur'an ... You are making the assumption that men and women should have the same role by asserting women should also have been prophets ... Nature and the development of the human race would prevent that notion ... Women would take care of children and at most forage for food, whereas men would hunt and gather. This is what your own atheism in evolution teaches you ... That men and women had different roles.

It is natures signature that men and women do different things ... Actually where men and women do the same things mostly that is man-made ... Like jobs in the work place under gender equality ... Man-made laws make us have the same roles not nature. So the evidence is against you.

[kprasad]

Re: Female Prophets

[quote="“Monk, post:24, topic:319828"”]

no… more like it sounds like you are saying women were so dumb they could not invent a religion.
[/quote]

This is a very interesting point. Perhaps you want to reconsider this argument, prior to submitting it.

@Monk

so Jesus was suicidal according to you ??
there is more to mosses life then your token introductry staemant about red see.
no.. twist please.
its you who need to explain why women could not be prophet.
so what you have said, conclude following results.
1-women were not smart enough.
2-God did not pick women.
3-or men had trouble respecting or taking guidance from women.
point 3 was proven wrong to y0u.
now explain, what your statement meant ??

how ?

how ?

Brother Monk,

This is beyond the boundaries of this debate. I’m going to respond to your points, for the sake of conversation.

Was Jesus suicidal, according to me: Not according to me, but according to the various religious myths. If you believe the myth, then you must accept that Pontius Pilate gave him a way to escape the crucifix. That’s an undisputed point of the myth. Jesus did not accept that. He chose to be crucified. That’s suicide.

My token introductory statement about red see: Brother, I’m very aware of Mosses. I’m aware of him in all the scriptures that mention him, because I have read them. More than once. My statement, though token it may be, is absolutely correct, based on your myths.

Your above point 1: I did no make that argument. So I’m not going to defend it.
Point 2: That’s not an argument I’m making. Your religious texts are stating that.
Point 3: Again, I did not state that. I stated that guidance does not equal divine revelation. The Quran and the Old Testament are explicit in this. There were no female prophets. This is not debatable. If you believe in the Quran, then you must accept this.

As for the other issues, I encourage you to read the Bible, especially Leviticus, and any of the Vedic scriptures.

[Monk]

Re: Female Prophets

ok lets start over.

[quote]

Was Jesus suicidal, according to me: Not according to me, but according to the various religious myths. If you believe the myth, then you must accept that Pontius Pilate gave him a way to escape the crucifix. That's an undisputed point of the myth. Jesus did not accept that. He chose to be crucified. That's suicide

[/quote]

So I wanted to be complete a-hole and talk out of my socks, I could say Mr Gandhi was suicidal ?? for leaving a good potential life and getting shot at the end?

Let me remind you again!

you said

[quote]

The reason religions don't have females in positions of authority is that the religions were created by men.

[/quote]

I told you in islam highest authority on the tradition was a woman.

Since then Unable to clear your self, changing you stance.
Very usual for muslim critics.

[quote]

So what you're saying is that god reinforces societal norms, even if they're wrong? So if a prophet came in this day and age, it could be a she and she would consider men and women as equal?

[/quote]

That again seems you are saying, we have problem taking guidance from woman. Well we did!!!

[quote]

To re-reiterate: Guidance does not equal divine revelation!
[/quote]

and what does this means?
you belive in divine revolution and upset why women did not get it?

When some one have 6 theories to to explain one phenomenon, its called having NO theory.

Then you guys ask us to stop believing out "myths"

well we would stop believing them, or would have stopped believing out myths if you guys did not talk out of you socks, and had credible scholarly argument.

[kchughtai]

Re: Female Prophets

Peace brother kchughtai

Indeed these verses might be useful for supporting the notion that law bearing prophets (Messengers) were always men. They do not necessarily negate females from amongst the Anbiya. And Allah (SWT) knows Best.

Wa alaikum Peace Psyah sb,

"Messengers" in the above verses is implied i.e., not part of wording of the verses. If we translate literally 16:44 then it will go as follows:

"We have not sent before thee but men to whom we did wahi ..."
this encompass all including messengers and prophets. No distinction has been made

[psyah]

Re: Female Prophets

Wa alaikum Peace Psyah sb,

"Messengers" in the above verses is implied i.e., not part of wording of the verses. If we translate literally 16:44 then it will go as follows:

"We have not sent before thee but men to whom we did wahi ..." this encompass all including messengers and prophets. No distinction has been made

Peace brother kchughtai

Yes ... "messengers" - is implied ... it is also clarified in the context of the verses surrounding this verse and supported by the other verses in the Qur'an regarding this pattern.

If you really want to know more detail then please also read about "hasr" - containment - it is a grammatical rule in Arabic that specifies things without exception.

Nakirah usage of the word "rijaalan" rather than "Al-Rijaala" also indicates open ended-ness

Also, it is true that nisa is the word for women and rijaal for men - but like any rule in Arabic grammar - the masculine can include the feminine but when the feminine form is used it does exclude the masculine.

And that is for messengers - i.e. even these do not by rule eliminate female messengers - but the sense is - yes it can be argued - but prophets is even more elusive ... But I stand by what I said earlier - there are no "female prophets as far as we know".

[kchughtai]

Re: Female Prophets

^ I am aware of "hasr" but hasr is not the only way to express a point with no exceptions. "No one except men" is pretty much self-explanatory. There is no need of using "Al-" here.
I don't think "rijal" can refer to women as well. Ask someone knowledgeable.

There were female saints. no doubt about it. for instance Hazrat Mariyam (as). but no one from among women were "appointed" by Allah for guidance of people. If there could be female prophets/messengers then Hazrat Maryam (as) had been a strong candidate since Quran give her a very high status

[psyah]

Re: Female Prophets

@kchughtai

^ I am aware of "hasr" but hasr is not the only way to express a point with no exceptions. "No one except men" is pretty much self-explanatory. There is no need of using "Al-" here. I don't think "rijal" can refer to women as well. Ask someone knowledgeable.

There were female saints. no doubt about it. for instance Hazrat Mariyam (as). but no one from among women were "appointed" by Allah for guidance of people. If there could be female prophets/messengers then Hazrat Maryam (as) had been a strong candidate since Quran give her a very high status

Brother it is a small point of difference ... why debate this? I am only saying that there are no female prophets as far we know. You are saying there are no female prophets ... I have presented my arguments for "possibility of exceptions" - The symbolic Eve from Adam is reflected in the language of Arabic ... All generic human forms are in the masculine gender and include women, but women are specific to womankind ...

You have rejected the hasr argument, the ma'rifa/nakira position and rijaal position - there is nothing more for me to say, I don't want a debate - tired of this approach ... perhaps you have accepted the messenger vs prophet argument ...

Regarding the grammatical "exceptions" point - I'm looking in to providing an example to demonstrate my point just for information, inshaAllah.

[kchughtai]

Re: Female Prophets

^ Not trying to debate this issue as I understand how hard it is for you to accept dissent :)
I just highlighted a point that was perhaps pretty clear and well-understood. My last statements on this issue:
1) I have not rejected hasr argument just said that it is not relevant here.
2) The verses are not specific to messengers but all who were sent by Allah and got wahi. word "messengers" was added by translators and mufasirs.
3) For me, prophets and messengers are the same. did not want to highlight it as I know your position
4) 12:110) And We sent not before thee (as Messengers) *any **but men, whom We inspired, **from* among the people of the towns.

The above verse clarify this issue and does not leave any room for wandering thoughts

5) Also I think that only men were "sent" as messengers/prophets is well-understood and I haven't seen a different ideology before coming across yours

enough said. cheers and Allah hafiz