Female Liberation...

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Re: Female Liberation…

Because I dont agree with your distinction between West and Westernization.

What you’re seeing in Will and Grace and other shows is limited to a few crazy cities in the nation. And its limited to a subsection of the population. A minority. Thus, its not part of Western Culture, and its not part of Westernization.

Its just a small group of people in this world with a great deal of influence that do not speak for everyone.

So Westernization nor the West is a cause.

Call it the effect of the Fashion Pundits. Call it the effect of homos in the entertainment industry. But not westernization.

The term Westernization means you are spreading Western culture. A few TV shows does not show Western culture especially when these shows are sparking a lot of opposition and concern in the US.

Its like saying Bush really represents the US. :rolleyes:

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sadly they effectively do speak for everyone.

im only making the distinction for your benefit, otherwise i dont care how that filth got constructed, and how the West actually is, it would be the west for me. Given that I dont give a rats ass about the West, you're free to lay the blame wherever you please, liberal elitist hollywood or cabal of homosexual jews. i dont care. it might be unfortunate that a small minority gets represented as western culture, but thats how it is.

westernization is the adoption of western ideas and culture by another culture, in our case pakistan. now tell me, given that a very small proportion of urban people from pakistan actually have access to the West, what is our source for consuming western culture. you tell me then, HOW will westernization happen in the real world. how, if not through the media, would the west be seen? how the average (urban) pakistani gets his dose of western culture in pakistan?

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Ab aap aaye naa asliyat par.

sadly they effectively do speak for everyone.

I do not think so. Prime TV, when we had it, was a blatant attempt to punjab-ize everything. I think most of the people I knew from Karachi were very much annoyed at the channel and it was a joke for many. It certainly showed only one side of the story.

im only making the distinction for your benefit, otherwise i dont care how that filth got constructed, and how the West actually is, it would be the west for me.

I knew something was off with your distinction. So you really do think that what you're seeing on TV is the West and that the Big Bad West is ruining your country. I'm sorry, but you're no better than the common average Pakistani. I wonder if its genetic - this habit of blaming others for their own fall?

Given that I dont give a rats ass about the West, you're free to lay the blame wherever you please, liberal elitist hollywood or cabal of homosexual jews. i dont care. it might be unfortunate that a small minority gets represented as western culture, but thats how it is.

And you'd think Pakistanis would be intelligent enough to distinguish. Even if they can't distinguish - no one is forcing the culture down your throat at gunpoint. So media still is not a good enough excuse for behavior. Its like the argument that kids are killing other kids because they're seeing guns being used on TV. At some point, you have to take responsibility for what is going on.

These girls that were caught, were SENT HOME and told NOT TO ENGAGE IN LESBIAN ACTS. They were already caught kissing in the first place. I bet you that this has happened in schools before, and its just swept under the rug. People dont know how to deal with it. And if these girls were handed over to the government, the rich parents would make life a living azaab for the students. There is way too much in this story than the Western Influences you're talking about.

The fact of the matter is, these rich girls are not given much direction (rich boys too). They're bored. So what do they do? They steal for entertainment. They go and hold people up at gunpoint for fun. They do drugs for fun. Its an attempt to fill up some void in their lives. Many of these rich kids are suffering from depression, and many of them are flat out lonely. They want a lot of attention. So they do this to "look cool". Its not Westernization. Its the fact that its not allowed in Islam. In their society. You see, lets take the West out of the picture and say that all countries in the world are Muslim. This incident would STILL have happened. Not because its Western. But because its simply not allowed. So when you rebel, you look to do what is not allowed. Not what is going on in America. Rape is not permitted in America or any other Western country. It still happens in Pakistan and at a high rate. Is it because of Westernization? No, its because its something they are not supposed to do.

There is the thrill factor of being "bad" that you're forgetting here.

westernization is the adoption of western ideas and culture by another culture, in our case pakistan. now tell me, given that a very small proportion of urban people from pakistan actually have access to the West, what is our source for consuming western culture. you tell me then, HOW will westernization happen in the real world. how, if not through the media, would the west be seen? how the average (urban) pakistani gets his dose of western culture in pakistan?

Its not just thru TV shows bhai. Its not just thru the Internet. Almost every family has someone they know (family or friends) that has lived in Western Countries. Most rich people have visited Western countries. But they're also exposed to their own culture - their own history. They know homosexuality exists because Islam told them not to engage in it. So by knowing something exists, does this "influence" a person? Does it make them engage in certain acts? I know about premarital sex, homosexuality, etc. I dont engage in it. And I'm not that religious to begin with.

But my upbringing has played a big factor in making me avert these activities.

So who is really at fault here? Again, I say its the Pakistanis themselves.

Ravage, whine about the West all you want. Its there. And if that's the scapegoat you want to use, go ahead. Its not going to improve anything.

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But of course and sadly in the American school system. But hey lets play ball. Give me examples in a time line where these things existed before they occured in the west?

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^ you mean lesbianism? I think I already gave examples in this thread alone of homosexuality being present in eastern culture.

Sheyn Baji is Getting...
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Re: Female Liberation…

nahi, ab phir bhi asliyat nahi samjhin.

but this isnt just one random tv channel is it?

ah, and are you genetically different from pakistanis now hm? my point pcg is, that i dont care what mechanics are involved in what gets represented as western culture. Im principally concerned with the impact it has on my society. I dont care about the western society because it isnt mine, and I dont want to be discuss ideas of whether or not american media accurately portrays american life, because i couldnt care less either way. All I care about is that this is foreign influence on us that is unhealthy for us, you guys can fix your own houses however you please.

see heres why i dont care to distinguish. it is tangential to the issue of westernization in pakistan how that westernization is constructed, and whether or not it represents some guy in clayton texas. I dont care about the guy in clayton texas, he can do whatever he wants in life. What i do resent is the impact on Pakistan, and that is what I am principally concerned with. you caare about clayton guy, you go ahead and lobby for his representation.

nobody blamed the west for rape. maybe people would blame the west for Date Rape, but then that would be a different issue. you have to see that your golden shining world isnt really as golden and shiny as you think it is. The west does weild negative influence around the world, through bombs and a depraved media, whether or not all of the West agrees with it or not. You say george bush doesnt represent US? hes an elected representative, when he signs a paper, every international body in the world will recognize that america is at war with Bangladesh (should that happen). while it may be true that 80 percent of america disagrees with that decision, that doesnt change the reality on ground that someone who represents america is throwing a bomb on chittagong, and it will be, and should be, percieved as an american bomb.

likewise, it IS american media, it IS western media, it IS westernization. you feel that it is an unfair characterization? your problems then arent with the average pakistani, they’re with warner brothers.

very true. And that is what I principally am concerned with. regardless of how the world is around you, regardless of what is shown on tv as the west, and regardless of it being true or not, what I am principally concerned with is the upbringing of pakistanis. americans can be as evil as they want, or as saintly as they wish, I just dont care. we should not allow western culture as packaged around the world via satellite (including internet) to make us lose our heritage. so you see Im just as inward looking as you, only I dont blush when westernization is disparaged.

as I said, you need to identify that there is a problem before you go around fixing it. you’ll never be able to defend yourself from the immoral aspects of western influence if you never identify what they are, if u never concede that they exist.

- Shaam-e-Mohabbat dhal gaYee yooN Tanhaai maiN -
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No i was refering to sems response where he think genocide, slavery and racism existed before they were molded into concepts of society of the west.

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I still disagree with you. The influences are there. But you keep demonizing the West. And that's what I dislike. Its not a western problem. Its a global issue - every country is dealing with.

Arabs and muslims all over the place are suicide bombing like hell is breaking loose. I'd be a quack though if I were to talk about the negative effects that Easternization is having on the Western countries.

See, The West is more intelligent - it took the good things from Eastern culture and incorporated it. Like all civilizations, the American civilization is morally declining because of temptations that have ALWAYS EXISTED. The same temptations existed that brought down all the civilizations that the Quran mentions - including the Arab ones during the Rasul's time.

Being a muslim you should know that. Its temptation by the devil. It exists in the West. And it exists in the East. Its not something that belongs to the West or is exclusively a part of the West. Its global.

Likewise, what's stopping the East from taking the good things from the West and abstaining from the things that the Quran discourages us from? Its really not that hard. Fact is, people in Pakistan WANT to engage in these activities. Its not from the West, its from within their own hearts. From their own desire to rebel, to be daring and different, to get attention, because they're depressed, or because they want intimacy and this is the only way they'll get it in an all girl's school - many reasons.

You keep focusing on Westernization. In fact, this whole thread is about Westernization. So, its obviusly being blamed as the main cause. Its not even a cause. Its been made into a cause. Because people dont want to admit that their pakistani girls could even think of such a thing on their own.

Well, guess what? Girls do think of such things on their own. Even girls that dont have access to American television in Pakistan. Poor girls who live in the slums.

Like I said. Things are brushed under the carpet a lot.

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Genocide you'll find a lot in Chinese history. Was it the Japanese trying to wipe out the Chinese or the other way? Or the Koreans? I can't remember honestly.

Slavery has been part of Islamic culture since its conception...

Racism existed in pre-Islamic arabia. Against Africans. That's one reason why the Prophet married an African.

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Firstly you're being very naive if you think that acceptance of homosexuality isnt much more prevalent in the west than in pakistan. if you think that premarital relationships arent more common and acceptable in the west than in pakistan.

as a society, in terms of sexual mores and norms, american society is more degraded than ours. and what gets portrayed in the media is an even higher degree of acceptability for those degraded sexual norms.

we've repeatedly covered the point that western culture percieved on the media (tv and internet) will increase the amount of degraded behaviour. if you keep wanting to blame pakistan, i couldnt agree more, pakistanis are very much to blame to allow this kind of west mongered immorality to foster and add to our woes..

if you want to add all sorts of caveats demonstrating how much you love your adopted country, fine by me, as I said, I dont care about whether or not american society is degraded, I care about mine. which IS being degraded by american influence, amongst other things.

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Ravage when are you leaving the evil west for pious east for good?

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^ agreed. :hoonh:

Acceptance of the event vs. the occurrence of the event. Yes, its more accepted here. Openly accepted, I should add.

That is independent of the occurrence of the act. Like I keep saying, its happening in Pakistan too and its been happening for a while. Even your village pathans have it as part of their culture - a leftover remnant from before Islamic times, but its still there. Are they watching Will and Grace? Its just not openly accepted in Pakistan, but that doesn’t mean its not happening there and that it HAS BEEN happening for many decades, even centuries.

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inshallah this year or the next :)

pcg, like i explained to madhanee, the same event can have different causes. what you are saying amounts to saying that blocking water to KDA doesnt matter because parts of KDA already dont have water. you have agreed that media does influence behaviour, and you have agreed that western media promotes homosexuality very strongly. I've never argued that it didnt exist, I've always argued that westernization increases this behaviour, particularly in the urban, westernized populace.

the homosexuality examples both of you gave, londaybazi or gayness in parts of rural nwfp is not the same as Speed ingestion accompanied homosexual acts, the former has nothing to do with western influence, the latter has everything to do with it.

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I still disagree. :)

I dont think you can blame media for what people do, when they've been doing that act for well before it even came on the media.

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no, that segment of the population probably didnt have this problem pcg, at the scale it does now. thats what you cant explain.

explain to me how studio 54 style warehouse party houses arent a product of westernization.

if its disagreement for the sake of disagreement, then fine..

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what the hell is a studio 54 style warehouse party.

"probably didn't have this problem". It did. It always has - there has always been homosexuality since the ancient empires. Kya baath karhe ho? The difference is that now we're talking about it. There were time periods in other civilizations where people talked about it openly. Old pushtoon literature talks about the "young boys" that old men had on the side. The Quran talks about that one eastern city in which homosexuality was rampant and that God destroyed with fire (was it fire?). I minor-ed in classical antiquity, so I can tell you that in the Ancient Roman and Greek civilizations it was fashionable - yes, fashionable - to have a young boy on the side. Kind of like a miniature male mistress, but male. Poets and writers have written about them.

Its not that its beginning to come up in the West all of a sudden. This is a cycle that has repeated itself through history. Even in Islamic studies, you'll see this concept.

Society is preached by a prophet (in the Old Days), and society turns good...society grows and with prosperity (often its marked by prosperity, interestingly), a great deal of vices become fashionable. One of them is homosexuality. Then things get really bad (its not just homosexuality of course that plays in), but then soon anarchy (or jaahaliyat) takes over, and another social revolution comes led by a prophet. Now we dont have prophets, we just have revolutions. Many previous civilizations have been thru this cycle, and that's what many western societies are going thru right now. Soon enough homosexuality will be even more fashionable and even encouraged - I'm sure that time will come too. But its part of a cycle, like I said, and even Pakistan is going through this cycle.

The rich get richer and the poor get...children - that's what the Great Gatsby says.

I'd modify it to the rich get homos and the poor get children.

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pcg, we're not talking about old pashtoon literature. rural nwfp has a stereotype of homosexuality associated with it, so it isnt a fair example. that and mullas indulging in londaybazi, but tell me, when was speed induced lesbianism fashionable in eastern culture?

and no, it isnt a natural cycle that Pakistan is going through, it isnt something every society would go through. just because socrates had a boy by his side doesnt mean Abdullah Panwala will too when he has a bank balance. I just dont buy that, and I can cite you examples from prosperous Muslim times where homosexuality wasnt associated with the prosperous class. very religious and conservative families in karachi are very prosperous, and this behavior would be unheard of.

you may argue that prosperity is a factor in all this, but you cannot discount other factors involved. In order to argue that westernization isnt causing an increase in thise behaviour you need to counter the two points I have repeatedly presented to you, that you repeatedly agreed with. that media influences behaviour and that western media promotes homosexuality.

all other points that you might bring in might contribute to the problem, they do not take away westernization's contribution to it.

and look up studio 54.. u might find knowing about it useful next time u go to karachi.

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I actually wasn't citing prosperity as a factor. More like an interesting correlation. Factor implies causal relationship.

And why is the Pushtoon example not good enough? Are you kidding me? Its the perfect counterexample, that makes your theory simply weak.

Homosexuality is homosexuality - whether we're talking about a Pushtoon taking off his shalwaar for a fellow man vs. a Kinnaird college girl taking down her jeans for another Kinnaird girl.

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because thats a stereotype specific to a particular demographic within an ethnicity in pakistan. has as little to do with pakistanis in general. you'd be hard pressed to find many jirgas in lahore, yet thats a feature of nwfp. tell me, if some factors start causing it to happen in lahore, would you say that those factors arent causing it, its always happened in nwfp?

i've said all along that it causes an increase, not that it didnt exist in some areas and some people prior to westernization. those areas are very distant, and the sphere of influence of those people doesnt really come close to kinnaird college lahore..

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And I’m saying there is no “increase” necessarily, unless you can bring some stats to the table. I’m saying there is a more openness about it. That’s why you’re seeing more cases.

Its like when they say the word “Sex” on ARY or Geo, and I do a double-take at the TV. Just because they’re talking about it openly on TV now doesn’t mean that people in Pakistan don’t have sex. Each couple must have at least once. YOU were born.

Secondly, dont talk about “stereotypes”, because I can throw that same argument at you. Maybe you’re stereotyping the West, ey?

I see guys holding hands in Khi - and I’m not talking about friends - I mean guys who are giggling and looking at each other lovingly. :disgust:

I haven’t been to Lahore, but I do know they have some men for “servicing” as well as female prostitute’s in Lahore’s Heera Mandi.