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It says you are a regular attraction there.
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**- Do you agree that what people see in the media influences their behaviour, and thereby cultural norms? I'll speak just of the media because its easier to argue the point.
- If so do you agree that western, even american media does promote the idea of the acceptability at least, and at worst fashionability of lesbian and gay relationships? Will and Grace, Queer Eye and the L Word revolve around this, and a lot of the other shows have similar content.
Given the above two points is it fair to say that western media would influence people towards accepting homosexuality and even finding it fashionable? **
Okay, you obviously don't know much about the US media. Many of its top big wigs - journalists, directors, producers, etc are homosexual. Homosexuals are very much active in the media and in entertainment.
I would say normally that it goes both ways - media does influence people. But then, if I admit to this, you're still wrong - Homosexuality is not an accepted "product of the west". And I say this because if its the media influencing the people, then what you really have is a small group of people trying to get a very large group of people to accept their ways. Not much different than the mullahs in Pakistan using microphones out on the streets to "bring people onto the right path" and thus "put their women in place, etc".
I would also say normally that the people influence the media - that is the media reflects what is going on in society. Again, you can't say homosexuality is a product of westernization. Because what you're really seeing is the EXISTENCE of homosexuality and the media exposing it. Just because the media is saying "look this is what is happening in our society" does not mean that everyone is doing it or that everyone is comfortable with it or that everyone finds it natural and moral.
Now your second point is not just about SHOWING the homosexuality in the media but showing it in a fashionable light. Let me tell you that this issue is quite controversial in our society, and I dont know if you've noticed it or not. Many people are debating about whethr the media is going too far. Will and Grace is not just positively showing homosexuality, but its jokes are far too detailed about the nature of homosexual sex and its quite graphic.
But let me say this - Westernization has been going on for a long time. Homosexuality has come out only recently, and only recently is the media putting forth homosexuality as something that SHOULD be acceptable in our society. Its clearly not acceptable even now, as we can see when watching debates about gay/lesbian marriages. The idea of a gay couple doing their thing behind closed doors is one thing in the US - like I said, capitalism influences us to turn our face away (not necessarily to accept it). But the idea of a gay couple raising a family and influencing the thoughts and moral code of future American children is something that is still debatable. And its something that gets people riled up easily.
If homosexuality is a product of westernization, then why are you seeing it now? Why didn't it come out earlier? I would not even claim that the "fashion" of homosexuality is a product of westernization, because again, we would have fallen upon it earlier.
So, again, no I do not believe that homosexuality is from the "West". Its been in the East. Its been practiced in Islam way back in the day, and it still is. Just behind closed doors. In fact, if anything, our old Pathan cultures have been open about having a "young boy" on the side. It used to be quite an accepted custom. And Pathans were not westernized at the moment.
And again, I beseech you people to recognize that Pakistanis are not as damn holy as they appear to be. Islam is an awesome religion, but even the basic principles we can't follow.
I am absolutely not surprised that these girls were caught having f'ed each other in the bathroom.
Because in the same country, you have gandhay ek number ke dirtbags loose out on the streets oggling and pinching and grabbing innocent girls, and no one is doing anything about it. In the same country you have bribery as the norm. No one can even make halaal kamai there, unless you run a resteraunt basically. And even then, one can question the morality of running a resteruant in which they're serving ek number ke chor.
Gentleman, Pakistan is today's Babylon. The Americans are not influencing anyone in Pakistan to do anything. Pakistanis in Pakistan are well past the point of influence now. Today, its really just become a game of the rich. They're bored, and this is their silly game.
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PCG, Pakistanis have become rich? Really. since when?
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well they like to think they're rich. go to tariq road or forum mall or some other hotshot place in khi. if they have a cell phone, they are the ****.
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why is everyone so riled up abt this? i don't think there is a more beautiful sight than two (or more) girls kissing..what's the fuss abt.
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One meta comment here. I previously said that the people who are the principle consumers of westernization do not have direct access to american society, nor do they see the american society as you see it, but as it is portrayed by the media. you should stop trying to defend american society because Im not claiming anything about the status of homosexuality in america. that is a seperate issue, and regardless of what status it has westernization is what the west is packaged as to Pakistan, not what it actually is or isnt.
I probably know a lot more than you think. The first line makes one think you’re gonna drop a bombshell of a doozy on my by giving me the big picture that im missing about western media. guess what, i know. 
read my first paragraph again if you still have any doubts now about how irrelevant it is what the source of liberalism on american media is. I dont care, and it doesnt matter how the crap thats eventually marketed as western culture is constructed, its the impact of that crap that Im making my points about.
you’re not reading what Im saying very thoroughly. as I said in my previous post, Im not going to argue that homosexuality didnt exist before westernization. Nor did I say that western influence is the only factor here. It has an additive influence, and this particular incident especially reeks of it, given the circumstances.
one last time, Im not saying that homosexuality EXISTS in pakistan because of western media. Im saying that homosexuality is being made fashionable in the urban, educated, young segment of the population because of increased consumption of western media, where homosexuality is given undue prominence and respectability. this does not mean that there wasnt londaybazi by mullas before western influence happened.
and on this point, lemme just note that media would reflect whats going on in society to some extent, even if some bigwigs up there force some content in yes. But that reflection is of the western society isnt it, it isnt something we have any control over or any connection to. we reflect as cultural norms on our tv screens a society that is quite alien to ours, especially as far as homosexaulity is concerned.
i know. see my first paragraph as to the irrelevance of this fact.
why? because westernization contrary to what you’re saying is a relatively recent phenomenon. up until the mid 90s relatively conservative governments were in power and there was a pretty strong hold on what the average person was able to consume. it is a gradual process, and I’ve seen the gradual process occur before my eyes residing in Pakistan during this process. You might’ve missed it sitting in Florida. and one more factor is the fact that western media has grown more and more open about the portrayal of homosexaulity over these years.
see my reply to madhanee for this.
yeah, but lets not assume that the west is so enlightened either. in my opinion sexual norms in particularly have been decaying in this culture, and that is reflected in the media as you say, even if it is overrepresented. we have our faults, but lets not use those to justify additional ones introduced by westernization.
this is bs. im sorry, but you’ve obviously been out of living with pakistanis in pakistan for far too long.
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OH God give me the strength to counter this deliberate ignorance.
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Slavery? Comon dude, it still is practiced in SA, given the choice will be made publicly legal had it not been Western influence
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Racism? U hv to be kiddin me? Most racist ppl I hv met belong to Muslim states..Kuwait, SA, Pakistan (against Bengali’s, fair skinned against dark skinned)
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Genocide? Sheez…East Pakistan forgotten already?
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Facism? What dya think these right wing fundos are doin right now? Facist right wing parties are busy destroying any form of dissenting opinion.
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Nazism is the same as racism and facism, Taliban can be equated to their standards
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Communism? Hv u any idea what communism preached? Seems not.
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I must say i am surprised, well then again i am not. You like most people here only see what their baised point of view allows them to see. You say it is all practiced today. So it is. Each one of these ideologies was created in the west. Each one was created to make other humans feel worse.
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Slavery was created in the west?
Racism? Genocide? Talk about biased points of view!
Where did you read that, Pravda?
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2 points ravage, since you made your stance more clear by defining "westernization".
- So you're defining the "effects of westernization" as what Pakistan is exposed to, not necessarily what Americans actually think. So, I guess your line of thought is that Americans are not overall approving of homosexuality since its still debated amongst Americans, but that the media is making it fashionable, and since the effects of media are part of "Westernization", then its "Westernization" that has caused this event.
Okay, I still think you're wrong here, and it echoes back to my original post in which I asked Pakistanis to take responsibility for what is going on in their own country rather than blaming everything on Westernization (which according to your definition is somewhat different from the West {west being a descriptive of what is actually happening here, and westernization being a descriptive of what you're seeing in pakistan} - um, okay, I'll go with that for the time being since its your definition)
My main counterargument is that the Pakistanis living in Pakistan have FULL control of censorship of media coming in from outside. That is, if they feel that Will and Grace and other such shows are improper and immoral, etc, then they wont be shown on cable. Or well they should not be shown. I dont know if Pakistanis are able to watch these shows or not. Furthermore, if there are casettes being made available to Pakistanis, then that also can be prevented. Censor them and punish the stores that are selling them. If this is coming via the internet, then control the internet. Make the internet a state-controlled media, and have one major ISP (although I already see abuses here), and allow people to access via one ISP. So then, all the porn sites, all the sites reviewing and talking about Will and Grace and other such shows are cut off from the population.
That would be going to the extreme of course, but its an option.
The other option is to combat this effect of media with your own media. Discuss homosexuality openly on TV and let people know that this is not Islamic. In the end, people will do what they want anyway.
Another side note is that again, an individual is responsible for their own actions. You can talk about media influence, etc, and it doesn't mean jack. Because even God has said that one is responsible for their own actions. If you dont want the influence of these TV shows and websites anywhere in the world, then guess what? Why not try to build a strong and virtuous state of Pakistan, in which morality is upheld and build an empire. Rebuild the Islamic empire. Isn't that what the Prophet did? I think the Prophet advised to turn your face away and not listen to that which is haraam when you are in the presence of it. Its the approach to the situation. So you have an influence there. Fine. Okay, its there. Either you get rid of the influence, or you ignore it and do as you would as if its not there.
So again, I hold the Pakistanis themselves responsible for their own actions. Blaming westernization is a scapegoat. I never heard of the Prophet blaming any of the Kuffar for wrongdoing in his own ummah. In fact, his attitute was more proactive - how do we deal with a transgressor? And he would always always always proactively preach and teach on how to live a good life. You get a whole lot more accomplished if you take a proactive role on how to fix things in your own society, rather than blaming the West. Which is what is being done on this website and in the Pakistani community all the time. So you blame the West and you've won your argument, lets suppose. Did it help at all? Did it make the problem go away?
If you are so interested in the issue of homosexuality in Pakistan, then why dont you start your own project on it? Organize a movement in which schoolgirls like these girls are targeted and schoolboys too - and tell them about homosexuality, and why its not allowed in Islam. Inform them. Because half of these guys dont know much about Islam in the first place. Have projects that make it "cool" to be heterosexual. Etc.
But no, guys like you will always come onto a website and complain about how the West has done so much harm, etc - Hai Allah Toba, etc. And its not going to get you anywhere - it hasn't as of yet.
- It has an additive influence, and this particular incident especially reeks of it, given the circumstances. - what is is about this incident that tells you the effects of westernization have led to it?
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By the way, Islam's approach to the situation has been corporal punishment. Stoning to death, I think?
Have these rich girls been stoned?
Just curious? Or is that law only for the poor? :) Right.
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I will not disagree with u on the subject of western media invasion, but look at it from the other perspective. If Western media is to be blamed for spreading liberalism as defined by them, then they are also spreading messages such as democracy, civil rights, upholding the law, religious tolerance and many other positive attributes. Therefore, why only blame them for the negative? Why doesnt society absorb the positive ideas?
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^ Damn Straight.
Pakistanis are way too lazy to accept responsibility for the vices in their own society. It would mean they have to WORK to counter the negative influences. Which very few people are willing to do. Even when you have a guy open a televised program about Islam (like Aalim Online), its not appreciated by some, and others don't bother to follow this attempt with more attempts.
Its only a few people in our society that are proactively working to build a better society. The rest just sit on their arses and complain about how the West is taking over.
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No nonononononno…PCG dont stone them yet…pls…Quran does not specify any punishment for lesbianism, if there is a reference it deals with those who indulge in wrong doings and they are supposed to be incarcerated in their houses till they either repent or die.
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I never said that the stoning law for lesbianism is correct. But Pakistan does have this law I think. I’m wondering if they applied it in the case of two rich girls. Or if their families are protecting them 
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SOOOO what... With all the Gay men running its only fair that the women should have the same right! :)
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what's so "new" about this news? my cousin told me when i was 14 that it was very common among girls in her school. Wonder why they put it into news NOW? It is not the first time that it has happened.
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PCG/fartguru im not going to post your entire quote here, because then mine takes up a whole page. let me know if i missed anything.
you and fartguru are making the same point, that Pakistanis are responsible for succumbing to the evils of western influence. I absolutely agree.
you see you folks get so damned defensive you miss out on what the other person is actually saying. never did I claim that america was actively promoting its lifestyle in pakistan or anything like that nor did I blame the West, i identified it as a social problem for pakistan which includes our resposibility for allowing it to happen. sure our fault does lie in allowing this unrestricted unmitigated access to and copying of western society (as it is portrayed in the media) in pakistan. and as farguru says, not aping the good aspects of western society with equal zeal.
sure the prophet never blamed the Kuffar for his ummah aping them in their kufr, but what you folks were doing was saying that this Kufr doesnt even come from the kuffar. what you were saying was that we shouldnt even say that this is westernization. how do you plan to lobby censure of bad western influence when you say it isnt even western influence?
Westernization is having a bad effect and is causing increased immorality in pakistan. i hope we agree on this now. you can add the caveat that pakistanis are majorly responsible for letting themselves go this route if you must feel threatened in your green card.
you, in your support for your adopted countries will adopt any number of positions in order to blame the other side into not criticizing your country. your zeal is great, but hey, heres what it comes down to: the problems in pakistan we've been talking about for so long are caused in part by exposure to (possibly exagerrated) reflections of a much more decayed society (in terms of sexual norms). in order to lessen these problems, i agree, we should adopt every measure possible as to not promote these much more immoral norms, alien to our culture and heritage, in our society.
as for what I will do to counter this, we're on a discussion forum here. only people who have nothing to say in their tanks resort to taking the debate outside the forum. if you dont want a discussion on topics and find it distasteful and fruitless, guess what, you're in the wrong place.
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Westernization is having a bad effect and is causing increased immorality in pakistan
No no. I was using your definition, and arguing from your point of view that this statement would be wrong, even with what you're saying and if it was true (I never did say it was). You say "Causing". That's the key term. You are saying the REASON for the decline in morality is due to Westernization.
My position is drastically different. I am not attributing the West as even a Cause. And I'm not saying that morality has been declining. I'm saying that homosexuality has always existed in the East. Its always existed in Pakistan. You're seeing it come out now more. The fact that you're seeing it visibly is more than likely due to the fact that world-wide, homosexuality is something that is finally being talked about more openly.
But you can't say that this incident was influenced by the West. There are no signs of the West here. Homosexuality is something that was practiced in Pakistan before, and still is. Just before, it was hush hush and behind closed doors. Now its coming out a bit more, but even so, its still quite hush hush.
So you see, we're not really saying the same thing at all.
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haha, ok. read again. i wrote causing "increased" immorality. "increased" is the key there, and that accounts for previously existing immorality.
you're just not addressing the points I've already made about this position that you're reverting to. regardless of what existed beforehand, there is going to be an increase in other segments of the population (that were previously not indulging in this filth) IF you concede that the media does effect individual behavior (as you previously have) and IF you concede that western media does portray this filth as acceptable and promotes it (as you previously have). so really, unless you show me how the logical outcome of the first two statement isnt that western influence via the media and other channels will cause increased immorality, you have already agreed that westernization (from the perspective of the affected pakistani population and not necessarily downtown Oklahoma) is causing increased immorality.
you may attribute any number of additional causes that you may want, you just dont have a position to argue from that doesnt have westernization as a cause, given what you've already said.