Now firstly short distances do not affect the mentality nor the foundations of a society. After all the fact that the plane was invented didn't mean that suddenly society was much more open?
Additionally media is limited to utilities of interaction. A car is not a form of media. Neither is a bicycle. TV, Radio, the Internet i agree are a concept of media and please tell me what is the most dominant form of communication in media? Where are the larges media centers based? Who controls the largest sources of information?
Absolutely not. I see no correlation between the advent of the car or the airplane on the substantial changes in societies. The media however i agree with you is responsible and who dominates modern media?
But lets play ball. So how did the creation of the car or the plane affect societies and their view points?
CM - the topic was homosexuality, we touched on western influence, now transportation. I'm not playing ball in that field. You and I both know that the viewpoint you have from traveling (and by extension meeting other people with different viewpoints) is quite a bit different from the person you may have been staying in one place all your life, so let's not even play kindergarten.
Unless you have something else to add to the fantasy you have of the non-existence of homosexuality in Islamic lands and western influences like actually talking about issues, I'm taking a nap.
Your choice. However the advent of the plane did not affect societies. It affected a select social strata of society. How is the average individual who lives in one country affected by the creation of the plane or the car?
Ranjhan i don't speak or read urdu/hindi. Its the ABCD in me.
It wasn't Urdu-Hindi and I said "and unquote my post, my aqal ('wisdom?') was fcuked by donkeys", wait that doesn't sound as effective in english but yeah can you unquote my post please?
There is a serious defining line between what is allowed and what exists.
In the east - Homosexuality exists. This I think we all need to agree on, otherwise, you're blind.
In the east - Homosexuality is not accepted by the majority of societies. Can't think of one that does exist.
In the West - Homosexuality does exists - Again, we all agree on this.
In the West - Homosexuality is not accepted. The difference is that in current Western nations, the law places a great deal of responsibility in the hands of people. Sexual acts are not something that is policed. But if you look even in American law, there are laws regulating the act of sex. I think I recall that Anal sex is against American law. Homosexual marriages are against the law - that's what a great deal of the commotion has been about in the US recently. Therefore, homosexuality is really not condoned, and its not an acceptable norm. There is a great deal of discrimination and hatred towards homosexuals even now.
Therefore, I really don't see the West and the East being that different in the way they see homosexuality. Both societies - it EXISTS. In both, its not acceptable behavior.
To deal with it, many Americans right now are taking the position of "I dont want to know if you're homosexual or not - if I dont know, then it doesn't affect our working relationship".
After all, we're capitalistic. That has to count for something too. A lot of homosexual people or people engaging in at least bisexual behavior are in powerful positions in our society (ex. in media, in entertainment, in businesses, etc). No one wants to break those ties, because those ties mean money. But that doesn't mean these people are saying homosexuality is morally ok. Rather, its just the way things work here. Keep your private life private, so our work can go on, because that's all I care about - i.e. using you for my own capitalistic gains. Who cares if you're f'ing your butler, as long as I get my money.
CM, we all know damn well that when the religious folks complain about the "West", they're damn well talking about the US.
EU, Austrialia, and New Zealand have very little cultural affects on Pakistan now. Its all Americanization in that country.
I think what it really is - is misconceptions. I think Pakistanis think (as evidenced by many replies here) that everyone in America thinks its hip to F the same sex. Maybe they're on too many porn sites these days.
PCG then i suggest you not make the same mistake they do. If you want to say US then say so. However to categorize the West as only the US that is just annoying. Secondly the EU is far more liberal when it comes to homosexuality than the US. They are the ones that demand muslim countries give recognition to homosexuality.
Lost one the idea is simple. Islam says heterosexuality is the way it is supposed to be. I am not going to get involved in the arguments of nature vs nurture on this matterm as there is no proof whatsoever that it is genetic. So it is not natural.
Additionally Islam says to combat homosexuality at each turn. So I do what my religion dictates.
Kinda confusing to read some of the garbage here. Let’s talk about Londa Bazi that’s thriving and practiced pretty well in some parts of Pakistan. Would Londay Bazi be something Eastern thing then?
pcg, most of us here have lived abroad and in the country you so strenuously are trying to clear our misconceptions about. it is redundant to do so. we get it, culture wars, blue state red states, liberal elitist media etc etc.
the last time I asked you this it kinda got lost in the midst of all this. I'll itemize the points for you, tell me if I make sense.
Do you agree that what people see in the media influences their behaviour, and thereby cultural norms? I'll speak just of the media because its easier to argue the point.
If so do you agree that western, even american media does promote the idea of the acceptability at least, and at worst fashionability of lesbian and gay relationships? Will and Grace, Queer Eye and the L Word revolve around this, and a lot of the other shows have similar content.
Given the above two points is it fair to say that western media would influence people towards accepting homosexuality and even finding it fashionable?
Most of the people in our societies aping american life have no real access to Utah's religious american model, and take their westernization from what they see of the west in their limited access to it through the media.
Thus its fair to say that increased western influence has caused all this in pakistan, including studio 54 style discotheques, speed induced rave parties, increasingly open homosexuality etc. i say increased because like madhanee says, londaybazi waghera existed before westernization.
Extremely weak theory Ravage. Explain how Londay Bazi is so rampant in some part of Pakistan (mainly the North). Have you ever seen Londay Bazi accepted on TV, Media or Glorified in the print media in Pakistan?
Now come on and tell us that oh…Pakistan is different. OK.
The reason press and TV in the US is open about it because it is a reality, and not because of it.
Londay bazi is.. paindu homosexual behaviour for the lack of anything better. deykho the same act can be caused by different factors. Im not one of those who is saying it was completely absent in Pakistan prior to western influence, nor am I claiming it is only caused by westernization.
and maybe it is reality in the west, but studio 54 style discotheques and the emergence of lesbian clubs wasnt ever a feature of pakistani society except recently. it was all private and shady if at all.
my point is really simple, its very hard to argue that western media would not cause an increase in the acceptability of homosexual behaviour if you accept that the media changes individual behaviour and accept that american media is very open (as compared to us) about homosexual lifestyles.
call it whatever u want yar. as far as whats wrong with it, it still is a social evil being promoted due to western influence, from the perspective of pakistani, muslim society. you wanna change its 'evil' status, good luck to you.