Tottaly disagree with this ..... If you are looking at just the period of last 300 years ......
Hey man. You can disagree. That's fine by me.
The whole crux of this thread was to compare Nobel prizes. And we all know that such prizes are based on European work of last 300 years (I guess sticking to the topic does need some work. Doesn't it).
And sadly you are falling in the same "historical trap" that so many Pakistanis have fallen into.
Yes surely the Chinese and Indians of 100's if not 1000's of years ago did do good science. But then they messed up their culture and fell to the bottom many many centuries ago.
Remember you cannot claim to be a heart surgeon just because your great dada Jaan was a surgeon. He worked his tail off in med schools (of his time) and became a doctor. And until and unless you got to "current" day med school and worked your tail off, you cannot be called surgeon.
Talking about the "bedrocks etc", is like modern day Egyptians claiming be top engineers just because 1000's of years ago Pharaohs built Pyramids. No siree. Those were different people, different race, different minds, even though they shared the same land where now the basket case Egypt exists.
The same way current day Muslims cannot strut around pompously that some guy named Al Gibran was maths guru. And many Muslims have Al in their name so they are the true great great grand kid of every Al the scientist from 700 years ago. Nopsee. Those Als were gurus, and modern day Als are gulams.
True inheritance of scientific knowledge is by learning, and not by genes (or jeans).
And sadly you are falling in the same "historical trap" that so many Pakistanis have fallen into.
Yes surely the Chinese and Indians of 100's if not 1000's of years ago did do good science. But then they messed up their culture and fell to the bottom many many centuries ago.
True inheritance of scientific knowledge is by learning, and not by genes (or jeans).
B... in the last ten odd years ... the "sick man of asia" has been transformed into a giant again .... it won't be long before you will see the dominanace of people from this cultural background at the forefront.
The reason you see European's at the forefront is because they have been the dominant power in the world for last 300 odd years !!!!!
Now with the change in that equation ...... read as no dominant world power centers "in the classical sense" .... you will see more Chinese, Indians in the forefront. Or should i say they are already there !!!!
B... in the last ten odd years ... the "sick man of asia" has been transformed into a giant again ...
Best wishes.
....
The reason you see European's at the forefront is because they have been the dominant power in the world for last 300 odd years !!!!!
...!
This is a circular argument BTW. Like the good old chicken and the good old egg.
Ottoman empire was dominant when Europeans were making HUGE scientific discoveries. Europeans got so good in Maths, engineering, and sciences that ottomans tried to emulate them. However it was too little too late.
Ottoman copies of European universities failed to produce original science. And pretty soon Ottomans were gone too, thrown from their high pedestal.
One reason they failed was probably the same attitude that many Muslims have today "My great dada jaan was a surgeon, so I must be called surgeon".
Ottoman empire was dominant when Europeans were making HUGE scientific discoveries. Europeans got so good in Maths, engineering, and sciences that ottomans tried to emulate them. However it was too little too late.
.
This period coincided was the stagnation phase of the Ottoman empire , they were past their prime..... the "newer" eurpoean power with fresh blood and ideas were growing ....
Even Chinese power had started to wane around the 1800's .... and of course India was fighitng for survival against the same powers during this time ......
So it was the period of the European civilization ...... which is not the case today ... things have begun to even out now and you will a definite change in less then 10 years period.
This period coincided was the stagnation phase of the Ottoman empire , ...
Yar this is Chicken and egg again. Khair chalo theek hai.
.......Even Chinese power had started to wane around the 1800's .... and of course India was fighitng for survival against the same powers during this time ......
.....
Chinese were dead in science long time ago (and not in 1800).
Indian engineering survived until Alamgir and then it practically bowed out.
And no until the end of Alamgir, Indians were NOT fighting for their survival against Europeans. They instead were doing katale am of each other.
....things have begun to even out now and you will a definite change in less then 10 years period.
I got this in email and trying to verify the facts although numbers seems to be correct in fact may be even worst !
Demographics:
o World Jewish Population. 14 million
o Distribution: 7 m in America
5 m in Asia
2 m in Europe
100 thousand in Africa
o World Muslim Population: 1.5 billion
o Distribution: 1 billion in Asia/Mid-East
400 M in Africa
44 M in Europe
6 M in the Americas
Decent 6Chora, I like you, but dude, you are going at it all wrong. See, you are missing the obvious here. Forget the rest of the information. Who cares about university rankings and global philanthropy anyway. All these stats and rankings are put together by jewish organizations. Forget them. The key to ultimate muslim domination of the entire world is in the above statistics.
Yes, you got it. We will out-populate all our enemies! Bingo!!!
They can do research and they can keep doing their philanthropy. We'll be the ones receiving all the philanthropy. Is it better to be the giver or receiver? You tell me.
Its so simple. Be optimistic. We don't need science, or research, or spend $$$ to prosper. We need more babies. You do realize why Israel is $hit scared of people in Gaza, right? Each Palestinian family there has an average of SEVEN kids. Get that? SEVEN kids!!! Of course, its partly because when there is an Israeli blockade outside, people pretty much have nothing else to do.... so the smart people of Gaza have turned a lemon into lemonade and keep producing more babies. Do you think Israel can ever afford a democracy there? Of course not. One-person-one-vote will decimate jewish rule in Israel, simple bcz muslims are so good in producing babies.
So, in summary. All is good. Our plan is working. Insha Allah, one day we will be the most populated community in the world.
ps. Above is part-satire, part-truth. Please control your emotions. :)
........
ps. Above is part-satire, part-truth. Please control your emotions. :)
Good one Faisal.
Hopefully I got the part-truth when you say:
........We don't need science, or research, or spend $$$ to prosper. We need more babies. ....
Not just Muslims, but every tribal and underdeveloped group of people follows that rule, regardless of their religion. UP and Bihar are dirt poor and mostly Hindus, and still these and other BIMARU states in India have very high birth rate. Same is true for tribal and uncivilized societies all over the world. From Pakistan to Mexico, people really believe in what you just said.
And you know the end result? They all line up at the consulates hoping and praying that at least one member of the SEVEN kids gets a visa to US, UK.
Sadly if they can't get a visa, they pay 100,000 of hard earned paisas to get illegal migration as boat people. Some survive and make it the civilized countries. The rest get arrested, humiliated, or simply drown.
Even those who make it to their country of Duaa and Dawa, they get down on their knees and do whatever menial job they can find.
So yes you are right on.
And allow me to borrow your wonderful line. That is:
ps. Above is part-satire, part-truth. Please control your emotions. :)
burqaposh your 'part-satire' is bordering on racist if not crossing the fence. please keep such satire to a minimum.
Writing satire is tough and may not be the forte for everyone. I respect that view.
As you see, the response to faisal was specific to just one aspect. "Benefits or lack thereof of making more babies." And unfortunately it was directed more towards Muslims. And that in itself may not achieve what Faisal was suggesting.
Do provide a specific sentence that wasn't to the point or racist. That's all.
Writing satire is tough and may not be the forte for everyone. I respect that view.
As you see, the response to faisal was specific to just one aspect. "Benefits or lack thereof of making more babies." And unfortunately it was directed more towards Muslims. And that in itself may not achieve what Faisal was suggesting.
Do provide a specific sentence that wasn't to the point or racist. That's all.
satire is definitely your forte,BP..u'r views are quite complex,i see...
It is good that you looked up the term BIMARU for India. That simply means BIhar, MAdhya Pradesh, Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh. End of story.
Read the rest of the Wiki page and try to realize that BIMARU states are in fact sick. The page goes on lamenting the facts and giving sorry excuses. But the point is still valid that the said states are sick areas of India.
FYI.
Calling a poor person a "poor" is not derogatory, it simply states the fact.
Calling an unhealthy chid as "sick" is not derogatory, it simply sates the fact.
Calling an unclean area / state "dirty" is not derogatory, it simply states the fact.
Unless off course political correctness goes haywire and results in complete ban of these words, one should be allowed to use them in normal conversation.
On your other point about Pakistan and Mexico, the post was just stating the facts.
Pakistan and Mexico have high birth rate, high crime, drugs etc. even though they follow two different religions. That was the point. The use of the words tribal or uncivilized is again not derogatory, it simply states the fact.
If someone comes back and says that Pakistan has achieved the civil structure of Denmark, or Mexico has become Switzerland, the fact remains that "on relative terms" the two countries are "less civil" compared to Denmark and Switzerland.
Time to be less emotional and more accepting of the facts. Unless we realize what's wrong with us, how could we ever improve ourselves?
bq you have your view, I have mine. You need to accept that every mod will editorialize and limit content according to his or her perspective. I've explained the kind of 'satire' that will not be acceptable hereon. We just need to leave it at that.
No Wonder... their is no future insight for Muslims even in next 200 years .. !
In general terms you are correct.
Minor addition though
**
their is no future insight for [those] *Muslims *[who continue their tribal ways] *even in next 200 years .
*
The reason for the additions is simple. Different Muslim countries behave differently. Then within each of the country, you will find variations too.
Urban areas of Turkey and Malaysia are more dynamic and civilized compared to their rural areas. These urban areas are a lot less "chained" to hyperbole, sloganeering, and they certainly differ in their general attitude towards change and adaptability. Similar dynamic attitude is also found in city states like Dubai.
Whereas a relatively small percentages of such dynamic, forward looking, adaptable, tourist friendly urban populations exist in other Muslim countries.
No wonder the modern Turkey and Malaysia have been a lot more productive in recent decades.
So it is likely that regions like Turkey and Malaysia may change in a period less than 200 years, whereas Somalia may never change.
It should be noted that the same analysis is applicable to non-Muslims countries too. Just look at Africa as a case study, and you will surely find many Christians countries who have no hope in the next 200 years.
As you guys would have noticed in the very first response in this thread, that tribal culture and not the religion is the one who determines the scientific development.
p.s. These are just academic discussions, so no one should take them to heart and get offended. Who knows a "Kun fa ya Koon" happens and Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan becomes the new Switzerland in the next 5 years.
^ or a greater Israel takes over the middle east? ..
SoA, that happened long before my time and even longer before this gupshup forum came into being.
Blaming a poster in this forum is merely shooting the messenger.
.....sell your country to the non-believers people, that's called being civilized and progress!
Tribals usually do not (or even can not) sell their country. They are too ignorant of their situation to protect their lands.
Or you think Palestinian leaders from Mufti Azam, to George Habbash, to yasir arafat to Abu Mazan are all sell outs?????? Just clarify your position instead of throwing one-liners.