Espresso Lahore protest

[diwana]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

Yes she was wrong. Restaurants are in the business of feeding you, not to look after your spirtual well being. If she is that concerned, *she should pray before heading out to eat. * Besides there is a mosque at every corner in Pakistan. Too many in my opinion.

Before she goes out to Iftar?

@chacha_Ghalib

I see a bit of a problem with that. Let's say that a restaurant can accomodate 200 people. If you require them to offer prayer space, they need to have a space twice as big as their needs. Because soon enough people will be asking for ba-jamat prayers because that gives you more sawab.

Now why should a restaurant owner pay extra rent? Would these same people be willing to pay double for their meals if they wanted to pray?

That is a stretch, no 200 people have asked or will ask for it.

The case is about one person. Let it be. :)

[Southie]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

Militant secularists, as I understand it, systematically deny the relevance of religion in social life. e.g. Iran under the Shah, where any public display of religious belief was illegal. Some New Atheists like Dawkins and Hitchens express the same ideas - albeit politically motivated - to target minorities. It involves general - often selective - hostility towards religion/God. Perhaps it's useful to avoid looking at this in terms of a political spectrum that goes from right to left, where secularism is a preserve of the Left. (Secular conservatives exist). The American dichotomy generally offers secular liberals vs religious conservatives. Elsewhere, liberals and secularists might be at odds with each other. A liberal might support the right to wear western clothes and the hijab while an extreme secularist might call on the state to ban the hijab. Since being secular may be necessary but not sufficient to make one a liberal, I find it useful to distinguish the two.

Good stuff. I read it twice for it to sink in.

( just as an aside - Christopher hutchns was a secular conservative)

[Southie]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

@chacha_Ghalib

I see a bit of a problem with that. Let's say that a restaurant can accomodate 200 people. If you require them to offer prayer space, they need to have a space twice as big as their needs. Because soon enough people will be asking for ba-jamat prayers because that gives you more sawab.

Now why should a restaurant owner pay extra rent? Would these same people be willing to pay double for their meals if they wanted to pray?

That was what I was trying to communicate. The added cost the premium real estate price in big desi cities etc. I was advised this is reqnuired per societal norms in Pakistan.

[ll_xx_ll]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

@chaibiskut

^ The rude barista symbolizes the country being ravaged by liberal terrorism, Veena Malik style.

Samjha karein.

how stupid of me

[Monk]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

In either case, its not an issue.
You folks living in west are too. too, too tuned to
pickup and comment and feel hurt and blah blah about such news
and issues.

[Ghost14]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

In either case, its not an issue. You folks living in west are too. too, too tuned to pickup and comment and feel hurt and blah blah about such news and issues.

You're absolutely right. I believe the people in the Tribune comment section told her to stop complaining, thus disregarding her feelings. Anyone who feels that a prayer room should have been provided should also stop complaining. Therefore, by supporting the cafe's decision we are being anti-Western, and therefore, thoroughly Pakistani.

[khattichic]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

@Ghost14

You’re absolutely right. I believe the people in the Tribune comment section told her to stop complaining, thus disregarding her feelings. Anyone who feels that a prayer room should have been provided should also stop complaining. Therefore, by supporting the cafe’s decision we are being anti-Western, and therefore, thoroughly Pakistani.

[CM]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

You're absolutely right. I believe the people in the Tribune comment section told her to stop complaining, thus disregarding her feelings. Anyone who feels that a prayer room should have been provided should also stop complaining. Therefore, by supporting the cafe's decision we are being anti-Western, and therefore, thoroughly Pakistani.

Or everybody could stick to societal norms in Pakistan and not bring alien values into the equation. Like most posters in the Tribune.

[waleedhbk]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

In either case, its not an issue. You folks living in west are too. too, too tuned to pickup and comment and feel hurt and blah blah about such news and issues.

THIS

[Ghost14]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

Or everybody could stick to societal norms in Pakistan and not bring alien values into the equation. Like most posters in the Tribune.

As I've said before, a norm is not a law. And obviously, the people disagreeing with the lady are also Pakistanis, unless you presume to pass judgement on what constitutes a Pakistani?

[CM]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

As I stated previously and will repeat for the sake of enlightenment, people on GS have prayed at that specific cafe. Restaurant all across the country offer such facilities. I have availed such facilities. So its the norm. And the issue of the law is not on intrinsic to Pakistan. Rather a US centric view point.

The people disagreeing with the lady have more in common with Paris Hilton than Pakistan.

[khattichic]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

@CM

As I stated previously and will repeat for the sake of enlightenment, people on GS have prayed at that specific cafe. Restaurant all across the country offer such facilities. I have availed such facilities. So its the norm. And the issue of the law is not on intrinsic to Pakistan. Rather a US centric view point.

The people disagreeing with the lady have more in common with Paris Hilton than Pakistan.

That's not fair CM. Most everyone has agreed that it was stupid for Espresso to brush off her request, but on the same token, she was also equally at fault for creating a ruckus over the situation. Her religious freedoms were not infringed upon, and she could have very easily offered her Salah right there where she was sitting, in her car, on the sidewalk etc.

Fact of the matter is, none of us were there to know what actually transpired between the patron and question and the staff.

You're making the same generalizations that the liberal side is being accused of.

Why does everything have to be an Us vs Them mentality?

[CM]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

I was speaking specifically with reference to the Tribune. I actually loathe the tribune and most if not all the commentators there.

The group that regularly visits said news paper consists of entitled self-obsessed 20 somethings who know more about what happens in Gossip girl then what happens in their backyard.

My comments were not directed at those who consider both parties of the conflict as idiots. Which they are. They are specifically to those who consider this a non-issue. In Pakistan the norm is to pray where you are. If you disagree that is your choice but that doesn't make it wrong. Which is exactly what Ghost and Southie et al have stated.

[khattichic]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

@CM

I was speaking specifically with reference to the Tribune. I actually loathe the tribune and most if not all the commentators there.

The group that regularly visits said news paper consists of entitled self-obsessed 20 somethings who know more about what happens in Gossip girl then what happens in their backyard.

My comments were not directed at those who consider both parties of the conflict as idiots. Which they are. They are specifically to those who consider this a non-issue. In Pakistan the norm is to pray where you are. If you disagree that is your choice but that doesn’t make it wrong. Which is exactly what Ghost and Southie et al have stated.

My bad… :sid:

Now you must agree that I am much, much hawter and light years above Paris Hilton

[CM]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

No clue. Don't know what you look like.

[khattichic]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

@CM

No clue. Don’t know what you look like.

Dil rahknay ke liye haan boldathay

All you have to do is stalk my blog entries

[Ghost14]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

@CM

As I stated previously and will repeat for the sake of enlightenment, people on GS have prayed at that specific cafe. Restaurant all across the country offer such facilities. I have availed such facilities. So its the norm. And the issue of the law is not on intrinsic to Pakistan. Rather a US centric view point.

The people disagreeing with the lady have more in common with Paris Hilton than Pakistan.

That you and others have prayed at similar establishments is irrelevant. I'm not disputing that it's the norm. I'm stating that you can't enforce a norm.

The law is not a US centric notion. It is present in the Quran, and has been a fixture of society for thousands of years. It constitutes what a citizen, or establishment, can or can't do.

She can't sue so she protested, childish as it was, and was met with backlash **from her peers. **Since you insist in bringing the legitimacy of citizenship-based-on-class into the equation, I should add that the woman herself is one of the privileged few, able to patronize said cafe, and organize an online protest. How Facebook of her.

@CM

My comments were not directed at those who consider both parties of the conflict as idiots. Which they are. They are specifically to those who consider this a non-issue. In Pakistan the norm is to pray where you are. If you disagree that is your choice but that doesn't make it wrong. Which is exactly what Ghost and Southie et al have stated.

I believe I am one of those who consider both parties at fault. Below is my original response. The only way for the woman to be at fault, is if she was being unreasonable. She can only be considered unreasonable, if you recognize the fact that her issue is trivial because a) there is no law requiring what she demands and b) she can easily go somewhere else to pray. If you consider protesting against a norm to be reasonable, then the woman is not at fault, and you are blaming the restaurant. You are also agreeing with Bill O, who claims that "Happy Holidays" replacing "Merry Christmas" is a "war on Christmas" because it *goes against the norm. *

^ You're missing the point. Both sides are being over zealous but unless there is a law requiring the restaurant to provide a prayer room, she has no right to demand one. It doesn't matter if it's a Muslim country, no law, no obligation. If that upsets anyone, they can show their displeasure by taking their business elsewhere.

I know you tend to get sidetracked within your own thoughts, so I've highlighted the important point above. Please don't go tripping shrooms on me.

[Monk]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

@Enigmatic

So just yesterday, a lady was snubbed by the Espresso Cafe, Lahore’s staff when she asked for praying space. In return, people protested at this. Now the Twitteratis are all flooding with tweets mostly making fun of people and the lady primarily who wanted to pray there.

Do you think she was wrong? Should restaurants provide prayer areas for people esp seeing this is Pakistan ?

Twitter Alert: Prayers, protests and a cup of coffee – The Express Tribune

ok
you are the perosn who break fast with coffee.
I sell that coffee you break fast with.
You: want to say prayer(between you and God)
I: Not providing place to my customer (between me and God)

Its like holy trinity right there. Me you and God.
Where the hell every one else came from ???

[CM]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

Ghost the point we differ on is the issue of obligation. You are making the point that since there is no law there is no obligation on part of the cafe. I am making the point that you have cultural and societal obligations in Pakistan which are considered the norm. And the legal basis of an obligation is a US Centric view point we both know that. In the third world society and culture have a far stronger influence than the law.

And you are throwing up straw-mans as well. Posters have said they have prayed there. So they did consider it a societal obligation. You are arguing a point that the cafe doesn't even agree with.

I am sorry to say this but you are pulling a diwana. You are making an argument the cafe doesn't even believe.

I have not stated anything regarding legitimacy of citizenship that is a separate debate. But its a normal conclusion that those who frequent the Express Tribune do have more in common with the average American than the Average Pakistani. Just read the blogs. Everything is a comparison to the US or the UK. How does that apply to the average Pakistan is beyond me.

[SaeedinPakistan]

Re: Espresso Lahore protest

The lady who complained about not getting prayer space is more like the Express Tribune readers(frequenting cafes, chauffeured around in shiny cars), so it's only fair that she be judged by them. She's a rich spoilt baby, who can't take no for an answer. She expects the servant class to comply and throws tantrums when they refuse.