The lady who complained about not getting prayer space is more like the Express Tribune readers(frequenting cafes, chauffeured around in shiny cars), so it's only fair that she be judged by them. She's a rich spoilt baby, who can't take no for an answer. She expects the servant class to comply and throws tantrums when they refuse.
So visiting a cafe in Lahore now makes you a spoiled baby. Good to know. So you agree then everybody on Express Tribune is a spoiled child who expects the servant class to comply and throws tantrums for no reason. Like the comments on twitter.
I was speaking specifically with reference to the Tribune. I actually loathe the tribune and most if not all the commentators there.
The group that regularly visits said news paper consists of entitled self-obsessed 20 somethings who know more about what happens in Gossip girl then what happens in their backyard.
My comments were not directed at those who consider both parties of the conflict as idiots. Which they are. They are specifically to those who consider this a non-issue. In Pakistan the norm is to pray where you are. If you disagree that is your choice but that doesn't make it wrong. Which is exactly what Ghost and Southie et al have stated.
I am absolutely in favor of folks praying. - or not praying whenever and wherever they choose to. My only point was the lady could have prayed silently
Also I would like to believe Pakistan is not a monolithic society. The liberals would probably take issue with your statement every establishment HAS to provide a separate place to pray - per Pakistani norms. Embrace diversity of opinions and don't get bent over if an establishment don't provide a special place. It is not as if they prevented her from praying.
Also any linknfor this Pakistani norm. It is the law that matters.
I am absolutely in favor of folks praying. - or not praying whenever and wherever they choose to. My only point was the lady could have prayed silently
Also I would like to believe Pakistan is not a monolithic society. The liberals would probably take issue with your statement every establishment HAS to provide a separate place to pray - per Pakistani norms. Embrace diversity of opinions and don't get bent over if an establishment don't provide a special place. It is not as if they prevented her from praying.
Also any linknfor this Pakistani norm. It is the law that matters.
Again I never said has to have. I said it was a societal obligation and anybody who has actually spent ramzan in Pakistan would know this. Multiple people can easily tell you they have prayed in restaurants around Pakistan after iftar. I have and people have said they have prayed at Espresso before. It is normal and acceptable. If you disagree with it that is your choice but it is by no means wrong. Rather according to the vast majority of the people its right.
Aray! Bhai! I did not say she cant pray at that Espresso. She could have prayed silently. What is with demanding a special place? Though I think you did explain it is the norm to provide special place upon request.
On another point - this lady ( or the protesters) calling for said staff to be fired. That is just wrong! Shows the kind of people they are - kick down and kiss up. But I guess that is our desi norm.
Because namaz is prayed in private. You don't pray in the middle of a cafe just like you don't start Jamaat in the middle of the street. This is a Muslims form of devotion to Allah. The sanctity of the place is just as important as the prayer itself. That is why nobody blares rock music in a church. Or people respectfully give deference to people in mass.
Ghost the point we differ on is the issue of obligation. You are making the point that since there is no law there is no obligation on part of the cafe. I am making the point that you have cultural and societal obligations in Pakistan which are considered the norm. And the legal basis of an obligation is a US Centric view point we both know that. In the third world society and culture have a far stronger influence than the law.
And you are throwing up straw-mans as well. Posters have said they have prayed there. So they did consider it a societal obligation. You are arguing a point that the cafe doesn't even agree with.
I am sorry to say this but you are pulling a diwana. You are making an argument the cafe doesn't even believe.
I have not stated anything regarding legitimacy of citizenship that is a separate debate. But its a normal conclusion that those who frequent the Express Tribune do have more in common with the average American than the Average Pakistani. Just read the blogs. Everything is a comparison to the US or the UK. How does that apply to the average Pakistan is beyond me.
Low blow man...
I'm saying there is no legal obligation. I agree that there is a cultural obligation. You can fight a legal obligation, but the cultural obligation is left to the whims of the public.
The lady who complained about not getting prayer space is more like the Express Tribune readers(frequenting cafes, chauffeured around in shiny cars), so it's only fair that she be judged by them. She's a rich spoilt baby, who can't take no for an answer. She expects the servant class to comply and throws tantrums when they refuse.
I called her a spoilt babty not tribunites in general. What I meant to say was, she is throwing tantrums for a trivial reason, when Pakistan is suffering from a lot worse. She has very little in common with a regular Pakistani(who can't afford Espresso or communicate in English). Tribunites and twiteratii are her true peers and it's fair that they judge her.
Again I never said has to have. I said it was a societal obligation and anybody who has actually spent ramzan in Pakistan would know this. Multiple people can easily tell you they have prayed in restaurants around Pakistan after iftar. I have and people have said they have prayed at Espresso before. It is normal and acceptable. If you disagree with it that is your choice but it is by no means wrong. Rather according to the vast majority of the people its right.
Save for your Express Tribune Pakistanis.
Well then that vast majority should go to their elected representatives and ask them to change the constitution to make prayer places at cafes mandatory.
I'm saying there is no legal obligation. I agree that there is a cultural obligation. You can fight a legal obligation, but the cultural obligation is left to the whims of the public.
Anyway, interesting debate.
I am sorry for that but I had to get it across that nobody considers it a legal debate. Its a cultural societal debate. Law means little to Pakistanis. Unless they want to use it to their advantage.
As for getting the staff fired, that is pathetic and she is on a power trip.
Saeed they would. But then you tribune posters would have a fit and start a protest on facebook and twitter...oh wait....
Well no one would give in to their fits cause the aren't the "majority" OR the majority doesn't really care and what it really wants is roti, kapraa, makan, education and healthcare. There's no dearth of religion in the land of the pure however we are lagging behind in all other facets of life.
You are right bout people having a complete disregard for law, or else we wouldn't have pious muslims stealing electricity without any remorse. Why follow laws when you have societal norms, cause they've worked for us so greatly in the past.
