End of the past?

Re: End of the past?

Kashmir Herald - Hate Lessons in Saudi, Pakistan textbooks

The kind of history and religious text books prescribed in countries like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan indicate that the authorises there believe that patriotism and nationalism are best preached by poisoning the young minds. The textbooks must instil in the youth an unambiguous message that the Muslims are ‘different’ from all the ‘others’ and encourage them to be implacably hostile towards the non-believers. After being instilled with hate towards ‘others’ all through the school education, it should not be difficult for the students to gravitate towards an even more extreme philosophy of hate and brutality preached by terrorists. Literally millions of children are being groomed for religious violence and worse.

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when you can throw taunts about someone's religion, then I think this is most courteous response you can get.

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With so much hatred being fed into impressionable minds in a tender age, one should not feel surprised at the increasing intolerance within the country.

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Nope. It is only in this post that you have changed you position to something a bit more reasonable and sensible. Otherwise in all your previous posts, you have clearly indicated that – just like the Mullah and RSS fascists – you advocate an ethnic cleansing of Pakistan’s History in a different way. This may not necessarily apply to you, but some people’s views here as just as bad as RSS and BJP goons with their impenitent disdain for oh so foreign ‘Muslimisation’ of sub-continent. If you want to go down this bigoted native good and foreign evil classification of sub-continent, then follow method of BJP/RSS’ madness and start off by shunning the foreign religion of Islam in the land of Ashoka.

You want a King who surrendered in front of Alexander the Great in 340 BC era to be taught as hero in modern age because he supposedly shared your ethnicity? Really? That’s your ‘better’ history? I’m speechless. That’s far from saying ‘we should learn about pre-Islamic past’ (which is all well and fine), but what likes of you are propagating here – in the name of ‘improving’ history – is to replace one type of dumbed down hero worshipping with another. Replacing one type of xenophobia with another. It is so depressing that in Pakistan, if it is not the religion that causes problem, it’s the issue of race that snowballs into a great hurdle and overtakes common sense. Can you believe it, in even in modern day Greece, Alexander is not celebrated as ‘hero’, yet we want to order Pakistanis start elevating the status of Raja Porus, because? God blimey.

Next one is Raja Ranjit – yes let’s blindly hero worshipping him because he was supposedly son of soil without really considering the fact how series of Sikh invasions and attacks ravaged Punjab. If Raja Ranjit can be hailed as hero for ravaging Punjab, then I don’t see why Governors like Shah Alam and Abus Samad Khan cannot be hailed as ‘heroes’ for keeping the Sikh depredation at bay? Now which side of history you want to glorify for your children? A person with genuine understanding and appreciation of history would say that let’s critically assess the past and be informed by various kinds of arguments and analysis based on different sources, without giving moral verdicts and romanticising any particular perspective to suit a wider political agenda of the existing time.

I would like to hope that you are now beginning to see the fundamental flaws and brewing dangers with teaching our children history just as means of ‘creating’ heroes. Learning history should always be about learning about past to know our present.

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Point the posts where I have been calling for ethnic cleansing of people. I am standing where I was. It's your old habit to jump the gun and assume things, when nothing works start calling names.

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Just like Mullahs are blinded by religion, right wingers cannot look beyond region. What exactly is the difference between them? They both want to pollute the textbooks in their own little ways. We allowed Mullahs to temper the textbooks in the name of religion, and we are still struggling to re-claim them back. Do you know what would happen if the nationalists are allowed to phony up the textbooks in the name of ethnic pride? Pakistan cannot afford to jump from one extreme to another.

I cannot describe how cringe-worthy it is to see people naming Kings and Queens as their 'heroes'. Europe stopped this backward practice long time ago.

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Why our textbooks should include Ranjit Singh – The Express Tribune

**Senator Raza Rabbani’s recent assertion that teaching students about Ranjit or Bhagat Singh would not harm Pakistan should be warmly welcomed. Altering a country’s history to serve its interests is a common practice in the world. But in our case, we have taken it to a whole new level. Our history books, which are meant to shape the worldview and mindset of future generations, are currently only a tool to indoctrinate the impressionable minds of the younger generation.
**
The history of Pakistan, as told in these textbooks, is nothing more than a history of Muslims in the Indian subcontinent. The books exalt Muslim rulers of the subcontinent, depicting them to be epitome of righteousness with the sole agenda to spread Islam, even though all of them were invaders with an expansionist agenda. **They vilify all local non-Muslim rulers as having an inherent hatred towards Islam, even though they might have been simply fighting an oppressor or invader. The names of the non-Muslim rulers are never mentioned. That’s why the books are replete with the names of the Ghaznavis, Tughlaqs and Mughals, even though they were invaders, but the likes of Ranjit Singh fail to earn a mention even though they were sons of the soil.
**
May I ask our writers of history that if Mehmud Ghaznavi was such a great preacher of religion, as most textbooks portray him to be, why did he go on killing and destructive sprees against, for example, the Muslim rulers of Multan? **And what should one make of the fact that he killed his own brother to capture the throne? Or that why did he have to attack the subcontinent 17 times? What was the motive for him invading places like Mathura, Kannauj and Kalinjar, known primarily for the treasures found in their Hindu temples? **Was it not to ransack them and take away their riches?

**The Ghaznavids were succeeded by Shahabuddin Ghauri. Ghauri is famous for challenging the Hindu king Prithvi Raj Chauhan, at the start of the Battle of Tarain in 1192, to either convert to Islam or be crushed. If spreading Islam was his agenda, one wonders what about the war he waged against the last Ghaznavid king, Malik Khusro? Why are our history books silent on this?
**
**Such textbooks have contributed to a skewed and prejudiced understanding of history, and created a sense of fear in many of us of all that is non-Islamic. This fear then creates a mindset of the average Pakistan, steeped in paranoia and a sharply anti-West worldview. **This also creates a superiority complex among many of us, in that we consider ourselves and our faith the best, and denigrate that of others.

We forget that our land has given birth to and helped nurture major world religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism, so it’s about time we embrace our history in its entirety and learn from it. Maybe that will help induce much required tolerance in us.

In the end, I would narrate a story that I have grown up hearing as a member of Lahore’s historical Fakir family. The rulers of Afghanistan never reconciled with the fact that Peshawar had slipped out of their hands and went to Ranjit Singh. When Dost Mohammed Khan attacked Peshawar in 1834 to regain it, Ranjit Singh sent Fakir Azizuddin, his prime minister, for negotiations. When the Fakir reached his camp and talks started, the courtiers gave it a religious bend and he was taunted severely for his allegiance to a non-Muslim. Shrewd that the Fakir was, he asked all present that being a good Muslim, wasn’t it his moral duty to loyally serve his king? The aggressors who were in no mood to let go, cleverly started alluding to the massive bloodshed of Muslims on both sides if the war ensued. The Fakir took a pause and asked Dost Khan that if he convinced Ranjit Singh to give Peshawar back to him, would he return peacefully? The answer was a resounding ‘yes’. And then the Fakir retorted: **“Don’t brand your campaign Islamic, it’s a fight for a piece of land.”
**
Published in The Express Tribune, October 15[SUP]th[/SUP], 2011.

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Mubahshir Luqman paid a tribute to Ranjit Singh in his show a few months ago.

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Can you please post the link for that?

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Could not have said it better. :k:

Porus was not the looser. Its a myth that Alexandra forgiven him and returned back his rule. Why could a person who was determined to conquer the whole world would have treated an enemy so well. Why didn’t he show same attitude with any other king. Porus id fought well and thats why Greek army retreated.

In history of wars, two things determined who won the war:

  1. Who remained the ruler afterwards. There is nothing like forgiving enemies like the Bullsh!t ‘treat as kings treat other kings’. Kings don’t forgive rival kings, they even don’t spare progeny of rivals.

  2. The change of route. Alexandra did changed his route from Punjab, which clearly says that he had to face great resistance in Punjab.

http://in.rbth.com/blogs/2013/06/03/alexander_vs_porus_beyond_the_fog_of_war_25749.html

Above all, in wars heroes are not those who won, heroes are those who dare to face the mightier one. Example: Karbala.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRy2NpAyceA

One comment posted by a Sikh :

https://ssl.gstatic.com/s2/oz/images/cleardot.gif

https://ssl.gstatic.com/s2/oz/images/cleardot.gif

https://gp3.googleusercontent.com/-4Ucvt_UXqFY/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAAAsU/AOIyDiJWDkQ/s48-c-k-no/photo.jpgharmeet singh

thnk u so much loqman sir kamse kam i salute u ke first time kisi maye ke lal ne tv pe akar sikh qoum ke mahan leader ke bare me sach se parde utahya ke jo sach tha logo ke samne le aye halanke humari tarekh ni kabhi bhi hamri tarekh kesath insaf ni kea

Re: End of the past?

Read! I said ethnic cleansing of Pakistan's history, not people. Big, big difference in case you notice.

Besides, did you not say Raja Ranjit and some other coward King should be Punjab's heroes as opposed to foreign Arabs, Persians, Turks and Afghans invaders? Go on, what exactly is your argument for calling Porus and Raja Ranjit your 'heroes' other than the fact they fit your self pleasing sons of soil criteria? Speaking of sons of soil, do you have any idea how Punjab's present day population owes its wonderful mix of ethnic diversity and racial make up to those foreigners who established communities and populated the rich, fertile land of five rivers. By randomly throwing in the manipulative neo-Nazi - natives good, foreigners evil - arguments, you are subsequently disrespecting the heritage of those groups whose familial lineage has roots outside of Punjab yet today they are just as Punjabi as everyone else in Punjab. But I'm interested to know what percentage of Punjab's population is ethically pure 'native' Punjabi and what percentage carry the damned foreigners' blood. Who are the real sons of soil and who are still 'outsiders'. I'm gonna debunk your argument on every single level to show the how dangerous and poisonous that mentally is if it is not properly challenged and nipped in the bud.

I'm willing to agree that the history you read at school which glorifies personalities is totally rubbish because hero worshiping is not what history is all about. But I don't think you actually agree with that. None of you have actually presented a single credible argument on academic grounds as to why it is important to study objective history, turn it into a specialised field of academia, expand and enrich our intellectual scope of historical studies and how can we practically achieve that (i.e allocate more funds for research). All I see is same old ethnic bullsht ranting about creating 'heroes' to sooth incurable sense of victim complex who can't be bothered about anything else in this world.

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Woh baat saare fasaane me jis ka zikar na tha
woh baat unko bahut naagawar guzri hai

We and likes of us need to consult TS for English tuition alongwith @jasos :cb:

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Guys I haven’t read any of the discussion, but please don’t annoy my friend Jolie. :chai:

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I doubt people who are trying to correct and teach history know anything about classification or periodisation of History discipline? This is exactly what we need in Pakistan to ensure students are studying range of different historical periods to enrich their understanding of the world they inhabit, and there is an option for the students to pick and choose modules. History is essentially is a study of past to understand why we are the way are. It is a chance to learn about the changes, developments and challenges we as society has gone though. History should be all about knowledge. But anyway, some of the popular historical divisions in European History are:

Middle Ages (476-1453)
Modern Period, 1453-
Renaissance period, 1453-1517
Reformation to French Revolution, 1517-1789
Industrial Revolution 1760-1830
New Imperialism 1830 -1914
World War I
Military history of World War I (conduct of the War)
20th Century, 1918-
20th Century, 1945-
Post War Societies (both Great Wars)
Inter-war years (1919-1939)
Decolonisation
Cold War

This is the rough caricature of European Historical studies, I'd be sitting here till mid-night if I start penning down the divisions and sub-divisions of British history. But the point is, one particular period cannot just called 'the history', it is an absolutely massive field of study, and all period are considered specialised area of study and research. 800 years of conquest and invasion is too big of a period in sub-Continent history to be completely overlooked or generalised. Can the history scholars in Pakistan divide the historical period into such divisions and sub-divisions and transform them into specialised but optional subjects?

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Another side of Iqbal - The one who opposes Arab imperialism and sided with Ataturk instead of crying on end of so called caliphate.

https://secularpakistan.wordpress.com/2010/05/03/allama-iqbal-in-favour-of-ataturks-secularism/

Has Pakistan authorities a courage to show this side of Iqbal to public?

Lets also call Iqbal a confused person now, as his popular version as portrayed to public is quite different.

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A different approach to teach history.

The History Project

The book is really interesting.

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Forget it !
The site shows Kashmir as part of India ! :hoonh:
That already says it’s biased.

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oh darling your sensitivities.

http://www.thehistory-project.org/img/slider/slide-3.jpg

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Right off the bat, I noticed that this site calls the Kashmir issue “so-called”.
That makes me think that this is a propaganda arm of India.
And it says ‘Jammu and Kashmir in India’, implying that there is no illegal occupation involved on the part of India.

Besides, by feeling different than others because you are Muslim, automatically means that you are promoting Muslim chauvinism or worse Islamofascism ?