End of the past?

[hanibal]

Re: End of the past?

@muqawwee123

I think problem is with the lines that has been reproduced in various articles posted above. Heavy emphasis on distinguishing features between Muslims and non-Muslims are drawn on cultural and social aspects than economic problems in the syllabus. I do remember reading 'deen alag dharam alag, rehna sehna, khana peena, pehnena oRhna sab alag tha’. They don’t talk about reasons behind economic backwardness of Muslims. Instead as reproduced in one of the article above, they said British didn’t want Muslims to flourish and they sent their valuable books to England making them backward

This is main clause of Two Nationa theory, and let me add, more to it, it also says, Historic figures heroes for us are your enemies and viceversa.

i agree about the last part… and i would like emphasis on the part where it says that Sir Syed Ahmed Khan was the 1st to note that muslims are out of eduction and may not be able to compete, hence the Ali GaRh movement.. it is also stated in the same book after the para where it says muslims were kept out of schools and bla bla

[hanibal]

Re: End of the past?

@phoenixdesi

thx for a lively debate…

one question that i had

if you agree that the narrative that was created post 71 for certain geopolitical reasons and which was further enhanced and radicalized by zia regime needs to be changed, then what shd be our new narrative?

that Pakistan was created purely on religious grounds and that muslims wanted a country where they could by live Islamic principles and that 2 nation theory was crux of our division rationale … if we strictly go by this rationale, our history books will always have a certain type of religious flavor … akbar will be abused being secualr and aurazgzeb will be the great savior or

shd we teach that division of pakistan was primarily done to protect Muslims’ economic and political benefits because under one man one vote democracy, hindus would always be in majority.

I don’t think we should have these things in length in our syllabus, instead our Syllabus should focus on patriotism and love and faith for Pakistan, however, there should be dramas and plays in the school from the nursery to show make the kids learn more about Pakistan and in addition to be living with peace and harmony with the fellow citizens despite whatever their profession or ethnic background may be.

Religion and importance of religion can be taught in the religious classes.

[muqawwee123]

Re: End of the past?

@ajazali

means, this is the land of slaves, in past they have been physically slaves now they are mental slaves. nothing to be proud of this land. this is also what can be derived from our history.

If we agree to your theory of slavery, then who is the better slave?

One who sing eulogies of the invaders or the one who talk about the struggle of locals against such invaders. choice is yours

[muqawwee123]

Re: End of the past?

@Ali_Syed

There was no status of Lahore before the ghaznavids. I consider them and ghauris to be looters like the ones before them. These people were not the first invaders, many more plundered the area before and after them who were non Muslims.

So only Mughal architecture is the part of Punjab and Lahore. What about so many gurdwaras across Punjab and Ranjit Singh samadhi in Lahore. They do attract tourists, but why they don’t count as the glory we inherited from the invaders? May be some psychologist can bring a suitable word for this phobia as well

[Jolie]

Re: End of the past?

In free and civilised countries, the signature far right debates about ethic purity and superiority of native versus foreigners are quick to earn you the title of racist and Neo-Nazi, but why is this rubbish tolerated in Pakistan by canny - good for nothing - attention seeking nationalists?

The only difference between the nationalist dogma spewed here and the sheer hatred puked by BJP/RSS fascists is that one party hasn’t gone as far as calling the religion of Islam a never needed ‘foreign force’ that plagued the land of Ashoka the Great. I mean what are these ‘foreign Muslims’ doing in the land of Ram and Sita, Arjuna and the place where Great Mahabharat happened.

What your average two penny nationalists fighting for ethnic purity don’t realise is due to roughly 800 of Islamic conquests and rule - awful lot of Pakistani Punjab’s population share some kind of familial lineage or ethnic link with those evil ‘invaders’. Now who are those people with mixed foreign blood - sons of soils or bloody invaders?

Since this whole debate is so political and has very little or perhaps nothing do with history the academic discipline, I’d say allow me the opportunity to settle my own political scores as well: I don’t think Nawaz Sharif should rule Punjab - he’s Kashmiri - kick him out of the house. I don’t care. Do a massive DNA test drive in Punjab’s bureaucracy and find an official who shares a lineage with Ranjit Singh or King Porus and appoint him the ‘ruler’. Simple as that. I want that bloody foreign looter gone.

Trust me, if Neo-Nazism ever erupts in Pakistan - this is exactly the type of BS they’ll be churning out.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: End of the past?

@muqawwee123

So only Mughal architecture is the part of Punjab and Lahore. What about so many gurdwaras across Punjab and Ranjit Singh samadhi in Lahore. They do attract tourists, but why they don’t count as the glory we inherited from the invaders? May be some psychologist can bring a suitable word for this phobia as well

the thing is that we only glorify Muslim invaders, which is selective. Before the there were countless invasions, almost all originated from Central Asia which shaped the region. Mongols, Huns, sakas, Parthians, scythians and Greeks came before them. I don’t know why we forget them while discussing Pakistani history.

[muqawwee123]

Re: End of the past?

@Ali_Syed

the thing is that we only glorify Muslim invaders, which is selective. Before them we have had more invaders, almost all came from Central Asia and all gave Pakistan and the region some value addition. Mongols, Huns, sakas, Parthians, scythians and Greeks came before them. I don’t know why we forget them while discussing Pakistani history.

Because Pakistanis don’t consider them as Pak as they consider themselves

[ajazali]

Re: End of the past?

@muqawwee123

If we agree to your theory of slavery, then who is the better slave?

One who sing eulogies of the invaders or the one who talk about the struggle of locals against such invaders. choice is yours

what struggle? singing of sufi songs in front of swords

[muqawwee123]

Re: End of the past?

@ajazali

what struggle? singing of sufi songs in front of swords

What makes you happy

BTW, those sufi songs were strong enough. Kuch logon se aaj tak hazam nahin ho pae

[Ali_Syed]

Re: End of the past?

@muqawwee123

Because Pakistanis don’t consider them as Pak as they consider themselves

If you question the rationale behind this skewed history you become a nazi. My point I believe was not understood. All I said in the previous posts was that there has never been a resistance from the areas constituting Pakistan (notably Punjab as that forms the bulk of current day Pakistan). We can easily see the same slave mentality in the classes ruling Pakistan even these days (both political as well as military).

[muqawwee123]

Re: End of the past?

@Ali_Syed

If you question the rationale behind this skewed history you become a nazi. My point I believe was not understood. All I said in the previous posts was that there has never been a resistance from the areas constituting Pakistan (notably Punjab as that forms the bulk of current day Pakistan). We can easily see the same slave mentality in the classes ruling Pakistan even these days (both political as well as military).

Don’t take these titles seriously. You will see people feeling proud about acts of USA in Iraq and Afghanistan tomorrow. They developed super highways there after bombardment of old faulty roads. BTW, Stockholm syndrome is term very relevant here.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: End of the past?

I guess it is considered blasphemy to say anything about the Muslim invaders.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: End of the past?

@muqawwee123

Don’t take these titles seriously. You will see people feeling proud about acts of USA in Iraq and Afghanistan tomorrow. They developed super highways there after bombardment of old faulty roads. BTW, Stockholm syndrome is term very relevant here.

yes USA also has added value to the Afghanistan of today. The only thing which is not in their favour is their religion.

[ajazali]

Re: End of the past?

@Ali_Syed

There was no status of Lahore before the ghaznavids. I consider them and ghauris to be looters like the ones before them. These people were not the first invaders, many more plundered the area before and after them who were non Muslims.

that is how the course of history happen. being the oldest have no pride. this is a racism instead.
I am unable to understand why it is a pride to be the oldest one from those who belong to the land. does it make you equal to the creator of the land?

[muqawwee123]

Re: End of the past?

@ajazali

that is how the course of history happen. being the oldest have no pride. this is a racism instead.
I am unable to understand why it is a pride to be the oldest one from those who belong to the land. does it make you equal to the creator of the land?

Did anyone talked about old or new ones?

All we talked about contributions of all without bringing religion in between. Talk about Buddhist heritage of Pakistan. Talk about Hindu heroes and freedom fighters and talk about contribution of Parsis and Qadyanis as well. But this needs courage and heart of a Sufi

Presenting locals as those who surrendered without any resistance leads to glamorising those whose actions were very much contrary to the praise they get from our slave minds. Was Ghaznavi really Butt-shikan? Why he kept intact Bamiyan’s Buddha and traveled as far as Somnath? Did he just do so to give us some value addition? If yes, what what was that value addition to be specific? You might be aware, Gujarat where Somnath situated is still a Hindu majority area (kufr ki aandhi chal rahi hai, noor ki shama kahan hai?) and Somnath was rebuilt just after 1947.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: End of the past?

@muqawwee123

Did anyone talked about old or new ones?

All we talked about contributions of all without bringing religion in between. Talk about Buddhist heritage of Pakistan. Talk about Hindu heroes and freedom fighters and talk about contribution of Parsis and Qadyanis as well. But this needs courage and heart of a Sufi

Presenting locals as those who surrendered without any resistance leads to glamorising those whose actions were very much contrary to the praise they get from our slave minds. Was Ghaznavi really Butt-shikan? Why he kept intact Bamiyan’s Buddha and traveled as far as Somnath? Did he just do so to give us some value addition? If yes, what what was that value addition to be specific? You might be aware, Gujarat where Somnath situated is still a Hindu majority area (kufr ki aandhi chal rahi hai, noor ki shama kahan hai?) and Somnath was rebuilt just after 1947.

This.

[Ali_Syed]

Re: End of the past?

@ajazali

that is how the course of history happen. being the oldest have no pride. this is a racism instead.
I am unable to understand why it is a pride to be the oldest one from those who belong to the land. does it make you equal to the creator of the land?

All I have been saying that the history should be discussed in totality. The way history we are taught it seems as if there was nothing in this land before 712.

[ajazali]

Re: End of the past?

@muqawwee123

Did anyone talked about old or new ones?

All we talked about contributions of all without bringing religion in between. Talk about Buddhist heritage of Pakistan. Talk about Hindu heroes and freedom fighters and talk about contribution of Parsis and Qadyanis as well. But this needs courage and heart of a Sufi

Sufi or confused?
You cannot see what is better with being a Muslim, you are confused. Now you can say you are modernized, enlightened, educated lot so and so but religiously you are confused.

Presenting locals as those who surrendered without any resistance leads to glamorising those whose actions were very much contrary to the praise they get from our slave minds. Was Ghaznavi really Butt-shikan? Why he kept intact Bamiyan’s Buddha and traveled as far as Somnath? Did he just do so to give us some value addition? If yes, what what was that value addition to be specific? You might be aware, Gujarat where Somnath situated is still a Hindu majority area (kufr ki aandhi chal rahi hai, noor ki shama kahan hai?) and Somnath was rebuilt just after 1947.

What does mean that Lahore was not there before this and that?

[muqawwee123]

Re: End of the past?

@ajazali

Sufi or confused?
You cannot see what is better with being a Muslim, you are confused. Now you can say you are modernized, enlightened, educated lot so and so but religiously you are confused.

What does mean that Lahore was not there before this and that?

Better be confused than killing people for self perceived clarity and righteous attitude.

What are the contributions of Ghaznavi - the Butt Shikan, if there was no Data saheb. Why Ghaznavi couldn’t promote Islam in Gujarat if he went there to eradicate kufr? Did he distributed wealth he got from Samantha among the poor of his Muslim state? Did he built a road like Asoka built and after renewed by Shehr Shah Suri. If yes name and shame the locals who are confused about everything. From religion to identity.

[ajazali]

Re: End of the past?

@muqawwee123

Better be confused than killing people for self perceived clarity and righteous attitude.

What are the contributions of Ghaznavi - the Butt Shikan, if there was no Data saheb. Why Ghaznavi couldn’t promote Islam in Gujarat if he went there to eradicate kufr? Did he distributed wealth he got from Samantha among the poor of his Muslim state? Did he built a road like Asoka built and after renewed by Shehr Shah Suri. If yes name and shame the locals who are confused about everything. From religion to identity.

this is the best that educated lot can come up with