Re: End of the past?
I didn’t say ban all books…just the ones being used in classrooms. My kids are homeschooled and they learn directly from “Living Books” like encyclopaedias and reference books. I take this teaching approach from Charlotte Mason…I think the Pakistani board of education as well as parents who are interested in their kids’ studies should take a look at her philosophy.
Re: End of the past?
thx for a lively debate...
one question that i had
if you agree that the narrative that was created post 71 for certain geopolitical reasons and which was further enhanced and radicalized by zia regime needs to be changed, then what shd be our new narrative?
that Pakistan was created purely on religious grounds and that muslims wanted a country where they could by live Islamic principles and that 2 nation theory was crux of our division rationale ... if we strictly go by this rationale, our history books will always have a certain type of religious flavor ... akbar will be abused being secualr and aurazgzeb will be the great savior or
shd we teach that division of pakistan was primarily done to protect Muslims' economic and political benefits because under one man one vote democracy, hindus would always be in majority.
Re: End of the past?
Isn't it true that religious leaders opposed the partition? So the politicians including Jinnah had to play the religious card to persuade them?
Re: End of the past?
Not that eulogizing foreigners has made any difference. Have a peek at the articles Muqawwee has posted above and tell me if they are they by any means promoting tolerance within the country? Are Hindus not part of the country?
The history that we read in Pakistan starts from Muhammad Bin Qasim, like there was nothing before that. We are not willing to acknowledge our history (Indus Valley Civilization, one of the oldest civilizations of the world and Gandhara Civilization, which had perhaps the oldest university of the world) only because they portray our non Muslim past.
First of all, I want to clarify that I am not defending History presented in Pakistan’s textbooks. Who knows, you are probably right; it’s absolutely rubbish.
What I am arguing against is your skewed perception of ‘History’. Likes of you just want History subject to become a tool to propagate self-invented hero worshipping for sake of it. You want the same extreme level of ‘eulogizing’ taking place in Pakistan, but this time, in the name of ethnic pride, not in religious defence. But let me tell you, if you think History the academic discipline is all about eulogizing favourite personalities or glorifying events, then perhaps you obviously don’t have sound understanding of history as a subject, and for that, I also blame those textbooks.
We need to understand and appreciate that History is much more than finding quick and cosmetic ‘new narratives’ to accommodate wider political agenda. History should be all about seeking knowledge of the past. Knowledge should be the King here.
In order to allow History subject to flourish we must campaign for greater historical investigation of range of legitimate primary sources. History is nothing without evidence, if new narratives are to be produced, they must be produced on the basis of scientific scrutiny of historical sources. Be aware that historian’s job is to assess, analyse, and evaluate sources to give a certain interpretation to the past; to help us understand it better. It is not Historian’s job to ‘tell stories’ and pass moral verdicts. This is a good historical practice.
Pakistanis intellectuals and academics must come forward to genuinely demand the widening and sharpening intellectual foundation of the history discipline. Start a campaign asking for funds to be poured into various research departments and projects so the professionally credible, crossed referenced, research and evidence based objective critical enquiries of the past can take place.
Re: End of the past?
thx for a lively debate...
one question that i had
if you agree that the narrative that was created post 71 for certain geopolitical reasons and which was further enhanced and radicalized by zia regime needs to be changed, then what shd be our new narrative?
that Pakistan was created purely on religious grounds and that muslims wanted a country where they could by live Islamic principles and that 2 nation theory was crux of our division rationale ... if we strictly go by this rationale, our history books will always have a certain type of religious flavor ... akbar will be abused being secualr and aurazgzeb will be the great savior or
shd we teach that division of pakistan was primarily done to protect Muslims' economic and political benefits because under one man one vote democracy, hindus would always be in majority.
We have taught our generations enough lies. It should be started with truth now.
They should stop feeding venom to students that only Muslims can be good human beings and heroes in Pakistan. God damn it they even don't teach them about contribution of minorities like Parsis. Still if you go to rural Sindh, you will find many schools founded by Hindus. Even some of Karachi's colleges were established by Hindu population. Any student don't know about them.
This retarded approach of sidelining minorities be it from other religions or other sects be ended at once. Everyone should be given proper coverage to promote sense of belonging to the land.
Last but not the least, if you can't tell truth to younger students, please don't fill their minds with filthy lies. Stop teaching them about bullsh!t 1965 and 1971 wars.
Re: End of the past?
[QUOTE]
Not that eulogizing foreigners has made any difference.
[/QUOTE]
Typical right wing xenophobia. Those foreigners became settlers. They formed communities, introduced new cultures and customs. There's a huge chunk of Pakistani population that shares some sort of lineage with those 'foreigners' you are trying to paint as barbarians. Once your text books history has been 'purified', next thing you know ethnic purity of people's blood will become the next question. It is one thing to talk about wider interrogation of our past, but asking for hero worshiping and gross glorification of personalities in the name of soothing ethnic complex is absurd. Those invasions and their subsequent results is indeed part of our history and heritage, just like Roman, Saxons and Norman conquests are part of English. Why do you want people to deny their past and be ashamed of it? What exactly was the status of Lahore before the Ghaznavid invasion and when did this city gained such prominent strategic, economic and political rise? Today, Lahore is considered the poster city of Pakistan's tourism and rich culture, but how much Lahore's picturesque grandeur and imperial architecture is due to the 'foreigner' influence?
Re: End of the past?
It was a one off series ‘wafa k paikar’ by PTV during early 1990s (probably PPP’s government), where they did covered Ahmed Khan Kharl, Hosh Muhammad Sheedi, etc. But this came after Zia regime’s dramtisation of Naseem Hijazi’s long novels like ‘Aakhri Chattan’ and ‘Shaheen’ and followed by serials on Babar and Tipu Sultan.
When they started a series ‘Nisf Sadi ka Qissa’ on independence movement in 1997 (Golden Jubilee Celebration), they did a two episode play on Jaliyanwala written by Mustansar Hussai TaraR, where the focus was on love of a Hindu girl to Muslim boy, who afterwards get killed by Massacre ordered by General Dyre.
There have been attempts, but our media (PTV) has always portrated non-Muslims as evils (most of the time). Lately Hum TV produced Dastan (a serial based on Razia Butt’s novel Bano dealing with partition) and in that play they again showed evil Hindu neighbors and Sikh villain. Interestingly, they did mentioned in a dialogue that there were riots in Pindi where Sikhs were killed. A rare phenomenon in Pakistani media, which otherwise heavily portrayed one sided picture of partition like in 1970s movies ‘ye amn’ and ‘Khak o Khoon’.
More on the topic:
Re: End of the past?
well people know facts. it is a way to present history. another presentation could be we are cowards, bag of worms, got invaded and ruled by outsiders.
Re: End of the past?
Back in the day, some of my cousins used to study in Cathedral School in Lahore, on Hall Road, near Model Town, I believe. Even as a kid, I was absolutely fascinated by the beautiful red brick building, and I used to demand that I must with them for every school drop off and pick up session just so I can see that 'unusual building', and once or twice I even got the chance to 'discover' and 'explore' their school building through frantic running around with my cousins after school time. It reminded me so much St. Pancras International station in London.
Since that building is so 'foreign' to *'native Pakistanis' , *and built by foreigners as well. I wonder how many of Pakistanis will be allowed to truly appreciate the unique architectural splendor and mystery of Cathedral School building without any sense of loss and identity issues?
Re: End of the past?
well people know facts. it is a way to present history. another presentation could be we are cowards, bag pf worms, got invaded amd ruled by outsiders.
The small Island that eventually conquered 25% of the world's land surface was invaded by Romans, Saxons and Normans many centuries ago. Big flipping deal. Invasion and conquests are part of pretty much all of countries' history. These conquests happened, they're facts, they're now part of history of heritage.
Poor Germans, their country 'Germany' only came into existence merely one and half centuries ago. Hah! Shame. Prior to that it seems they were getting ruled by whole of Europe. Why don't these Germans just dwell in their victim complexes and leave Europe alone, and take Angela Markel with them.
Nay, I like Germans. They should stay. Just send Angela Markel somewhere.
Re: End of the past?
well people know facts. it is a way to present history. another presentation could be we are cowards, bag of worms, got invaded and ruled by outsiders.
Have you heard of Firdosi, the writer of Shahnama? He belonged to the land of invaders, Iran. You would be shocked to know his views about Arab invaders.
“From a diet of camel's milk and lizards the Arabs have come so far asو to aspire to the Persian realm, shame on the revolving universe, oh shame.”
Every nation got rid of love for invaders, except us. We just believe in to be on side of winner. chaRhte sooraj ke pujari jo thehre.
Every nation faced defeat, but that doesn't mean to promote defeatist mindset in coming generation by making them writing eulogies for invaders from their innocent ages.
PS: Very interesting fact is Mahmud Ghaznavi was one of biggest admirer of same Firdosi. They themselves hated the invaders with such a passsion and made us mentally slave still after so many centuries :D
Re: End of the past?
thx for a lively debate...
one question that i had
if you agree that the narrative that was created post 71 for certain geopolitical reasons and which was further enhanced and radicalized by zia regime needs to be changed, then what shd be our new narrative?
that Pakistan was created purely on religious grounds and that muslims wanted a country where they could by live Islamic principles and that 2 nation theory was crux of our division rationale ... if we strictly go by this rationale, our history books will always have a certain type of religious flavor ... akbar will be abused being secualr and aurazgzeb will be the great savior or
shd we teach that division of pakistan was primarily done to protect Muslims' economic and political benefits because under one man one vote democracy, hindus would always be in majority.
This is already there in our books, which say some thing like this, "the visionary leadership of Quaid-e-Azam already knew that in united Sub-continent, Muslims will always be a minority and their political and economic interests shall be depended on the Hindu majority, hence the need of Pakistan..."
the problem with us is, we do not read it..
Re: End of the past?
I think problem is with the lines that has been reproduced in various articles posted above. Heavy emphasis on distinguishing features between Muslims and non-Muslims are drawn on cultural and social aspects than economic problems in the syllabus. I do remember reading ‘deen alag dharam alag, rehna sehna, khana peena, pehnena oRhna sab alag tha’. They don’t talk about reasons behind economic backwardness of Muslims. Instead as reproduced in one of the article above, they said British didn’t want Muslims to flourish and they sent their valuable books to England making them backward 
Re: End of the past?
Have you heard of Firdosi, the writer of Shahnama? He belonged to the land of invaders, Iran. You would be shocked to know his views about Arab invaders.
“From a diet of camel's milk and lizards the Arabs have come so far asو to aspire to the Persian realm, shame on the revolving universe, oh shame.”
Every nation got rid of love for invaders, except us. We just believe in to be on side of winner. chaRhte sooraj ke pujari jo thehre.
Every nation faced defeat, but that doesn't mean to promote defeatist mindset in coming generation by making them writing eulogies for invaders from their innocent ages.
PS: Very interesting fact is Mahmud Ghaznavi was one of biggest admirer of same Firdosi. They themselves hated the invaders with such a passsion and made us mentally slave still after so many centuries :D
you know you are are Dravidians, you got defeated by Aryans. Today, you are mental slave of west. Arabs did not occupied "your" land.
And actually its not your land, you did not created it yourself. by evolution, it could be some other animals that had been living at this land.
Re: End of the past?
First of all, I want to clarify that I am not defending History presented in Pakistan’s textbooks. Who knows, you are probably right; it’s absolutely rubbish.
What I am arguing against is your skewed perception of ‘History’. Likes of you just want History subject to become a tool to propagate self-invented hero worshipping for sake of it. You want the same extreme level of ‘eulogizing’ taking place in Pakistan, but this time, in the name of ethnic pride, not in religious defence. But let me tell you, if you think History the academic discipline is all about eulogizing favourite personalities or glorifying events, then perhaps you obviously don’t have sound understanding of history as a subject, and for that, I also blame those textbooks.
We need to understand and appreciate that History is much more than finding quick and cosmetic ‘new narratives’ to accommodate wider political agenda. History should be all about seeking knowledge of the past. Knowledge should be the King here.
In order to allow History subject to flourish we must campaign for greater historical investigation of range of legitimate primary sources. History is nothing without evidence, if new narratives are to be produced, they must be produced on the basis of scientific scrutiny of historical sources. Be aware that historian’s job is to assess, analyse, and evaluate sources to give a certain interpretation to the past; to help us understand it better. It is not Historian’s job to ‘tell stories’ and pass moral verdicts. This is a good historical practice.
Pakistanis intellectuals and academics must come forward to genuinely demand the widening and sharpening intellectual foundation of the history discipline. Start a campaign asking for funds to be poured into various research departments and projects so the professionally credible, crossed referenced, research and evidence based objective critical enquiries of the past can take place.
No where have I said in my posts to create a new narrative. We can't create heroes as we don't have many. All I have been been saying that tell the history as it is. At the moment we have invented it giving it an islamic tinge. These days even acknowledging the past is considered to be against the ideology and creation of Pakistan. See the past posts in this thread as a reference.
Re: End of the past?
you know you are are Dravidians, you got defeated by Aryans. Today, you are mental slave of west. Arabs did not occupied "your" land. And actually its not your land, you did not created it yourself. by evolution, it could be some other animals that had been living at this land.
What is the point of this post. seems some deep philosophy behind it. please explain further and how it justify eulogies of invaders 'Butt shikan' and all that in the syllabus, when still we got sizable population who still worship those 'butt'?
Re: End of the past?
The small Island that eventually conquered 25% of the world's land surface was invaded by Romans, Saxons and Normans many centuries ago. Big flipping deal. Invasion and conquests are part of pretty much all of countries' history. These conquests happened, they're facts, they're now part of history of heritage.
Poor Germans, their country 'Germany' only came into existence merely one and half centuries ago. Hah! Shame. Prior to that it seems they were getting ruled by whole of Europe. Why don't these Germans just dwell in their victim complexes and leave Europe alone, and take Angela Markel with them.
Nay, I like Germans. They should stay. Just send Angela Markel somewhere.
no denying, but there is a ethnic cause behind these rants. some so-called sons of land say that, raja dahir was better than hajjaj bin yousaf because he belonged to land, even though he was looter.
Re: End of the past?
Typical right wing xenophobia. Those foreigners became settlers. They formed communities, introduced new cultures and customs. There's a huge chunk of Pakistani population that shares some sort of lineage with those 'foreigners' you are trying to paint as barbarians. Once your text books history has been 'purified', next thing you know ethnic purity of people's blood will become the next question. It is one thing to talk about wider interrogation of our past, but asking for hero worshiping and gross glorification of personalities in the name of soothing ethnic complex is absurd. Those invasions and their subsequent results is indeed part of our history and heritage, just like Roman, Saxons and Norman conquests are part of English. Why do you want people to deny their past and be ashamed of it? What exactly was the status of Lahore before the Ghaznavid invasion and when did this city gained such prominent strategic, economic and political rise? Today, Lahore is considered the poster city of Pakistan's tourism and rich culture, but how much Lahore's picturesque grandeur and imperial architecture is due to the 'foreigner' influence?
There was no status of Lahore before the ghaznavids. I consider them and ghauris to be looters like the ones before them. These people were not the first invaders, many more plundered the area before and after them who were non Muslims.
Re: End of the past?
What is the point of this post. seems some deep philosophy behind it. please explain further.
means, this is the land of slaves, in past they have been physically slaves now they are mental slaves. nothing to be proud of this land. this is also what can be derived from our history.
Re: End of the past?
Although iam not fan of Naseem Hijazi, but i have red his all books which have almost same story with the little difference of name of the hero and region.. but books like Naseem Hijazi or Khan Asif etc are not text books, they are fiction written in some historic period. These books can’t be called as historic record of document, these books refers to historians and then dramatize their fictions and dialogues etc. But these books always have one good message… for example, Shaheen, Andheri Raat kay Musafir, Aakhri Chattan, Moazam Ali, Aur Talwar TooT Gayee, covers the fall of muslims, where they were defeated, their general character of lust for money and keeping personal interest on top of national interest thing.. and how invaders have taken advantage of our weaknesses are fully covered. If one want to read fiction with the taste of history, these these are there…
2ndly and more importantly, Pakistan was crafted out of India, the India on which Muslims ruled for some 800+ years…
In the same world, we have legend like Minto ( my personal favorite) is there, we wrote some harsh realities of 1947…
Dastaan was good and there should be more serials like of those…