Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

Let’s keep the intentions part aside as we are talking about different sects here and I am not in a position to say some sects are based on bad intention. The other aspect is consulting evidences and then making the best possible decision. Well, the problem is not all the sects agree on the validity of the evidences or they interpret them in different ways. The evidences, I would say, lack solidity. They are insufficient to resolve disputes. Otherwise, let alone the different Sunni sects, there won’t be the Sunni and Shia divide in the first place. So while I agree with your statement that difference of opinion can always be there, what I don’t agree with is that in the matters of faith one should try to change the beliefs of the people on the other side of the spectrum if they are not ready to review, scrutinize, and change their own beliefs. There is no way of resolving religious disputes through arguments as there is no reliable, unanimously agreed upon instrument to resolve those disputes. Live and let live should be the policy.

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

Peace MangoMan

At the same time we need solidarity and unity among ourselves. We need dialogue and not debate, we need respect and not alienation. If we live and let live in the sense “we have nothing to do with you, do as you like” then in my view that is failure.

At the same time - I have not been the one trying to change or alter the view of others. Except that I feel we can never be too sure of our own position. In which case we should all be ready to modify and improve our beliefs. However I can only enforce that logic on myself and I can only speak of this in an advisory capacity to others, if they wish to take that advice.

We need proper scholarship of subjects and even sit down with the opposing minds and route out verdicts together. There may still be difference - but the cooperative effort may allow the two people to respect each other.

We can work with Shi’a on a common platform just like we can work with non-Muslims on other common platforms. This is the recipe to strengthen ourselves - the separation and segregation that both the modernists and radicals call for will harm us and weaken us.

I would like to stress that I am not calling for resolving disputes to the extent that we get one answer. I was actually refuting that it is necessary in order for us to function as a homologous whole. I was saying that religion is not like measuring the height of someone and that example is not fitting for this situation. Sincerity is about whether we want to continue arguing or want to find some ground towards truth.

Now in our exchanges together what have we achieved on this thread? We can review our posts if you like.

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

So I have chosen to review this discussion with you @MangoMan and to be honest I could have answered better, here is the synopsis:

MangoMan first you said the following in post #31](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=31)

You present an argument:

  1. Islam itself is not agreed upon – therefore we cannot find the Islamic truth
    a. It is not like chemical properties, etc
  2. Those who say they want to find truth … are wrong/false/deluded, etc
  3. Therefore: We should accept differences

In post #32](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=32) … I tried to explain how 1) is not technically correct. There are tools for consistency to establish truths – Validation does exist in Islam but also 1a) is not always a one-to-one answer always either. We just need to use the tools honestly.

In post #38](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=38) you said …

  1. Easy to refute arguments then why so many sects?

In post 40](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=40) I tried to say …

  1. That difference is not necessarily a bad thing.

However, what I should have said is that I never said it is easy to refute religious arguments. It is simple if we follow an academic approach and ready ourselves for change if and where required. The problem is many do not know the tools and some who do will not use them honestly.

In post #41](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=41) I tried to show that truth can be multi-faceted and that there can be two or more right answers. Because in religion it depends on the sincerity to do the right thing.

In post #42](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=42) you obtained something else by what I wrote and used it to support the idea that resolution cannot be achieved.

But we achieve an understanding and respect on the opinions of the other group … so something is achieved!

In post #61](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=61) you presented the argument that not all people will accept the validity of the evidences presented … I agree with you. Look at my post #32](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=32) – In my points 1, 2 and 3 they are supposed to acknowledge the fact that evidences – i.e. the premises of an argument could be refuted. However, we have different tools for them, and different tools for showing how they are validated and so on … until we arrive at some conformity. What we look for is not to impose our evidences on others or them on us … We are trying to understand their approach at this stage. We look for ‘internal consistency’ – this means logical correctness within their own parameters and within their own argument structure. If there is no consistency then we can conclude that something about their argument is wrong. Either the conclusion is wrong, the premises are wrong or the way they are being connected is wrong. And we can discover this by looking at several examples and analysing them with the same logical structure.

I believe it is possible to reach closer to one another – but truth is not about “definitions” it is about “experiencing” the Divine and sincerely being devoted to the religion and making it the driving force for our lives …

Coming back to your first point – I think we do not have enough patience for each other and no desire to put effort in to extract details that may challenge us. This is the cause of our disunity and weakness.

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

^^ So Psyah,

You believe Sahaba (RZA) who do not celebrated Eid Milad were wrong in doing so?

please yes or no would be enough…

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

No

… but I don’t know how that is going to help you arrive at an understanding of my position; What it might do is rig the situation to make it seem like a problem in my approach. I would also say that those who do not celebrate it as an event today are not wrong for not doing so either. However, I believe it is not wrong for celebrating it … because there is a reason why they/we celebrate it.

If I undermine the Sahabah (RA) in any way I have no leg to stand on …

Please next time if you ask a question that you want a yes or no answer for … don’t phrase it like this:

“Have you always been an idiot?”

Because then if I answer yes I am an idiot and if I answer no I am still an idiot. Next time give me some room to qualify myself.

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

thats very kind of you and is enough for me.

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

You are welcome … do you think it is wrong to do anything that the Sahabah (RA) themselves did not do in the exact same way? You can answer with any response you like …

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

I was in Lahore and bumped into road block, was curious if something have had happened, then i saw few camels, a carriage and things like that and i asked by friend, is there a shia event today, he said no it is not Shia event it is procession of Eid Milad…now that was new to me.. and then later what i saw on TV was enough to know that all this is wrong.. and how all this started… it is Neem Ulema like Aamir Liaqat Hussain who have no knowledge neither have any logic but have managed to get a job and a program on a tv channel on a recommendation of a MQM goon… have initiated a hype rest have followed…

If such event have to be celebrated, then why don’t all this ulema check out if they and their followers have spent the whole year as per Sunnah or if they have missed, if they followers and leaders have even tried to make peace and harmony in country by their deeds or not…

but what we have seen that few so-called lovers and followers of Islam and Prophet (SAW) attacked the memorial of Slain Governor Suleiman Taseer… yes, those are the true followers of Islam..

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

As long it is not harmful to the humanity and is not against the very message and spirit of Islam… one can do things which are not done/practiced by Sahaba (RZA).

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

Just for the explanation behind Mawlid and what it sets out to achieve according to my understanding and how it was explained to me:

Islam is strictly against change. However, some changes happen without us realising. For example, if I am walking a path and the trajectory is given, if that subtly changes gradually over time undetected then when on reflection a major difference from the original trajectory has occurred then it is time for a “correction”.

Corrections are very sharp and observable interventions and many confuse them for being innovations. In reality they are measures to set back on course the effect of years and years of gradual innovation.

Time itself separates us from RasoolAllah (SAW) … No one can claim to have the love of RasoolAllah (SAW) like the Sahabah (RA) and no one can claim to have the presence, fortitude, awareness and taqwa like them. Anyone who thinks they can have so much concentration in prayer that if they have an arrow in their side - they don’t need anesthetic but simply sujood and the arrow would be drawn out without pain, because of their intense concentration in prayer, then show me that person. Today we could not even manage to start the prayer with an arrow in our side.

The respected Sahabah (RA) had intense - ongoing - continuous love - for RasoolAllah (SAW). Time has meant that each generation appreciates the Divine gift to humanity - the light of our eyes RasoolAllah (SAW) less and less. As a result we lose that completeness in following Sahabah (RA). We may retain some outward display of semblance but the inner condition is lost. It is being lost all the time. This is a deviation …

Mawlid is an excuse to remember RasoolAllah (SAW) in a palatable format that specifically forces us to bring consciousness of him (SAW) to the fore. We do not use a defibrillator (electric shocking device) on healthy people walking around, but we use it on those whose hearts have stopped.

Mawlid is like such a device. It is an intervention to rectify the years of innovation of the inner condition. Sahabah are like the living person who does not need his heart shocked.

The Mawlid itself is not part of Islam in that sense and hence we cannot be accused for being innovators because the definition of innovation is:

  1. To say something is part of Islam but it is not
  2. To say something is not part of Islam but it is
  3. To give a ruling for something that does not belong to it

Mawlid is given the ruling muba’ = permissible … We don’t ascribe it as Sunnah that would be innovation. However, it contains mandubaat good things - that when done in this way help to liven and awaken a love for RasoolAllah (SAW) that otherwise may be dormant in the distractions of modernity.

Those who are able to retain strong focus on RasoolAllah (SAW) without Mawlid are truly gifted and in my opinion awliya of this generation. But the majority of us need to get our hearts pumping again … and that is why I accept it and think it is a very good intervention to counter the innovation of lost love for RasoolAllah (SAW).

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

So good old Muslims still haven’t settled this debate yet?

It’s that time of the year where every Tom, Dick and Abdullah thinks he is the defender of 7th century Arabian Islam, the ultimate protector and the perfect follower of Prophet’s Sunnah or the only person on earth who loves Prophet more than anyone else in this world. The fatwa and biddah police is out there running a sectarian campaign in full flow. I don’t know what’s happening in Pakistan, but hard core Wahabi groups with Arab ‘Shykhs’ are absolutely loving painting South Asian Muslims as inferior or even fake Muslims. Exactly the kind of preaching we deserve, eh? The young Muslim generation is being antagonised by such counter productive debates and self pleasing moral policing, demonising differences won’t ever let the Muslims unite over countless similarities they share with each other. Not that I have any dream or yearning desire to see a universal Islamic brotherhood or anything like that, but it irks me to see the annual flourishing of good old ‘all cultures and cultural practices are haraam, biddah and plain old shirk’ charges against entire community. Just attend some of those ‘talks’ to get the idea, and I’m pretty sure people from other extreme of the spectrum are capable of doing exactly the same thing.

It would be nice if Muslim, for sake of Islam, just stop being its thakkeydaar, and let people get on with their lives and beliefs.

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

:eek: When did Harry converted to Islam? time for celebration? :aejaz:

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

The possibility of doing different than Sahabah (RA) comes from need and and ease of life. For example, Sahaba (RA) did not travel via planes but we can travel and it has nothing to do with getting sawab as people do in case of milaad. Its like introducing new methods to get more sawab in order to become a better muslim than Sahabah (RA).

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

Peace ajazali

And where did you get this from?
Travel has been cited in many occasions connected with sawab - such as to the masjid and for Hajj.

Remember … I work towards internal consistency … And that is what caused me to leave my previous approach because of the lack of internal consistency.

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

I know that but i am not talking about that journey.
To to travel for halal rizq has sawab, but who will get more sawab, a traveler via bus or a traveler via bike?

And where did i say that you will not get sawab for traveling for Hajj? I was talking about means of traveling.

what do you mean by internal consistency?

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

This one :gadha:

ok. bad joke.

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

lolz, esko diaper pehnaen ye religion forum ha.

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

That the tools you use to explain one set of things to be okay should be used the same way to deem another thing to be okay. That the tools and methods used to say something is not okay should be applied in the same way to say something else is not okay.

That is internal consistency …

We are being told Mawlid is not okay because Sahabah did not do it.

In reality there are several assumptions being made here … Is it true that if Sahabah did not do something that it is not okay? Of course you will qualify it in the way you just qualified. However, will you allow yourself to qualify the Mawlid in the same way? No … why? Because there is more being said here …

What else is being said? Well the viewpoint is mawlid is a bid’a - why is it a bid’a? Then we need to define bid’a … Some people say a religious practice that was not done by RasoolAllah (SAW) or Sahabah (RA) is a bid’a. Well in that case travelling can be a religious practice.

Arguably the one on the bike might be getting more sawab because it requires more effort than a bus.

1055. Ubayy bin Ka`b (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: There was a man of the Ansar whose house was the farthest from the mosque. As far as I know, he never missed Salat (in congregation). It was said to him: "If you buy a donkey, you may ride upon it in the dark nights and in the hot days.‘’ He said: "I do not like that my house should be situated close to the mosque. I desire that my walking towards the mosque and returning home be recorded to my credit.‘’ Upon this the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) said, "Allah has gathered all (rewards) for you.‘’

Well travel when done in the context of religion become a religious practice. The leniency given to travel mode is not given to mawlid. Something is wrong with the definition of bid’a in this case.

Bid’a needs to be tied in to how it is viewed. People who do mawlid call it muba’h - i.e. permissible - in the same category as travelling by bike and wearing a leather jacket. It is not part of Islam - but it is given a ruling, just like wearing a jacket is not part of Islam but it is given a ruling - Internal Consistency.

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

Im at work so limited time available but Psyah may not be giving a true picture of Mawlid. He is well mannered and most importantly literate, with good grammar, but he is not giving a true picture of Mawlid. At least those who are actually supportive of Mawlid will see his willingness to compromise as a slight against Mawlid

Mawlid is Fard, Wajib, Sunnah, Mustahab and some aspects will be jaiz

MAWLID and celebration of Arrivals of RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam have been celebrated with a similar style to what you see today. When RasoolAllah SallAllahu Alaihi wa Ahlihi wa Sallam came to Medina. The details of this celebration are similar to the objections people have made here. Meaning the objections are wrong

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Re: Eid milad un nabi is biddat - Saudi mufti

yeh sinema u ka to naheen :cobra:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10906207_10152551551236766_7888494543809809602_n.jpg?oh=72df418460deb403935821c639f49d80&oe=552857BB&__gda__=1429601709_f1650aff380c6e743cfd065b592350e1