Eeshwar Allah tero naam

[deedawar]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

I think we have too many hindus on this site...it does not seem to be Pakistani site.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

:-)

ChannMahi, when you figure out a logical counterargument, then go ahead and post it.

[queer]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

@PyariCgudia

1. Saying that God and Bhagwan are not the same thing is not failing to show courtesy to any faith. To say they are the same thing is a blatant lie and pure propaganda. If you said to me “Bhagwan is the only God that exists, and there is not other”, then I would say ok “I believe in Bhagwan too”. But that is not the definition of Bhagwan, because Bhagwan, as per belief of hindus, is not the ONLY God.

you know nought on hinduism. Bhagwan/Ishwar/Brahman is the only God in hinduism. maybe its time for you to take a few religion classes and learn a thing or two. frog in the well attitude is no fun after all.

Oh and thanks for agreeing with the verse now.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

Then what are those gods I listed?

[ChannMahi]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

PCG ...one does not need an arguemtn for something that is self evident...the verse(and the ones i listed also) are poetic verses by Sufi saints who saw humans of every religion the same and saw the same God in every name and shape...they sung these verses to praise that almighty God and spread message of love and peace to the world.

In your rigid interpretation your religion you think otherwise. Sufis..remember the same guys your brotherhood keep giving credit to for saving them from clutches of Hinduism.....those sufis composed verses like this and sung them.
Your mind is stuck in certain words and hadiths and can't see the big picture.

[queer]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

@PyariCgudia

Then what are those gods I listed?

They are earthly manifestations of Brahman. And you didnt get them right, but not a bad start to understanding the true nature of hinduism.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

^ ah, but not all sufis think alike. :-)

[ChannMahi]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

Ishwar, Bhgwan , BrahmaN can be directly translated to GOD...they are names of God just like Allah, Khuda etc.
and they all refer to ONE...there is nor plural for Ishwar, Bhwagan or BhrahmaN....there is not such sentence as...aapke IshwaroN ne yeh kiya....or aap ke BhgwanoN ne yeh kaha. they are never used in plural sense...even a 5 year old Hindu kid will laugh at a sentence constructed as...aap kitne IshwaroN ko maantey ho?

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

So then I was right when I said that Brahman is, by hindu belief, reincarnated in human form (or some material form at least, whether human or humanoid, or not).

That's not what one of the earlier hindus who tried to clarify the concept of Brahman was saying.

[ChannMahi]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

@PyariCgudia

^ ah, but not all sufis think alike.

true…so next time you praise Sufis please let us know which kind you praise:)

[ChannMahi]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

definitions, what really allah is? you can keep discussing all year if you wish .it is never ending discussion.

use of the phrase "Allah mian" by most muslims subconsicously indicates what image they have of Allah when they say Allah.....it is the image of a all power full man...Allah mian. it is all fine because it is almost impossible for humans to think outside the dimensions we live in and comprehend an invisible formless Allah. so humans long time ago, found a way to represent him in many forms tht they can comprehend.

Even when we say God is shapeless, formless invisible etc etc...our mind is truly picuting Him in some form...usually human form......or super human form.

[queer]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

God taking visible form on earth is not alien to abrahamic religions either. and more people call Jesus God and son of God. Doesnt exactly fit the Allah pattern now, does it?

[Code_Red]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

Like I said it is not a question of belief but our own insecurity about our past and language..

Whcih is most visible in pakistanis

Turks, persians, egyptions, indonasians, they all converted to Islam but they did not hate their past. But we pakistani muslims do and we do it furiously

I am also grateful that Pakistan was created and we got a neighbour and we love to kick their a$$ in every game we play together

But religious insecurity and intolerance is something we developed after independance. before that muslims (of subcontinent ) never had a fear of losing anything although they were in lesser number and lived with hindus for some thousand years.

And the most prosperous time for Islam in India was the time of Saints. Islam spread in subcontinent purely due to their efforts and hardship. These saints were not insecure about their beliefs and they had love and respect for people of all religion, caste and colour.
Thats why hindus still love these saints for their message and purity of soul.

Last and most important thing, hate can not impress anyone.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

code-red, if I'm saying Bhagwaan and Allah are not the same G(g)ods, and are at least different perceptions of the same God, then where is there "hate" in that statement? Its a fact - our conception of God and their conception of God is vastly different. So if you say "Oh bhagwaan" - are you really speaking about God or are you speaking about the hindu version of God?

It boils down to the debate about "What's in a name?"

Some language philosophers will say there is no difference, some will say there is - like I said - it boils down to the semantics. The bhajjan is saying that the hindu God and the muslim God is the same God. And if God is identified by the attributes that each religion holds to be true, then we're not talking about the same Gods are we? Is mein hate ki koi baath nahi hai. And its not about disdain for culture - what is nice and good about the hindu culture i have no problem with and MANY pakistanis do uphold those traditions (like saris, and mehndis, and choorian, etc). But what is not Islam is not Islam. You can't reconcile two different faiths.

Queer - now you're talking about Christianity, which is a different religion and off topic.

ChannMahi - also not a good counterargument, because muslims say something and do something else. I'm comparing Islam as what it really is to what Hinduism really is - compare scriptures, and you'll see the concept of God-hood is different in each religion. If you go by what muslims do, then you will have no idea what Islam really is (unfortunately).

[queer]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

not really. muslims seem okay with using God for Allah, which has about the same validity as Khuda or Ishwar. It is widely used to denote the christian God, who also has arguably distinct properties from the Islamic one.

[Code_Red]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

PCG- Hate is the overall feeling one gets when we realize our overall attitude toward some groups. The bias we have against anything hindi,hindu or india.

Like I said earlier, we are indifferent towards other loose translation of our concept of One almighty God in many languages but when it comes to language of our forefathers we are furiously against it, and we deny any chance of similarity of meaning whatsoever.

If this is not bigotry tu phir kia hai ???

I admit that we are taught this way by our elders to look down upon everything related to hindu, hinduism. Now is the time to change our mentality. and shun this insecurity.
As you said

If you go by what muslims do, then you will have no idea what Islam really is (unfortunately).

I would be fair to give the same concession to hinduism too. The grasp the concept of God in hinduism we need to loook at their earliest scriptures, which is “vedas” much of which is lost but what we have now, The purest concept of God is no different than what we have in Islam

Thanks to rvikz..

@rvikz

“Ekam evadvitiyam”
“He is One only without a second.”
[Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1]1

“Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah.”
“Of Him there are neither parents nor lord.”
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 6:9]2

“Na tasya pratima asti”
“There is no likeness of Him.”
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:19]3

The following verses from the Upanishad allude to the inability of man to imagine God in a particular form:

“Na samdrse tisthati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam.”

“His form is not to be seen; no one sees Him with the eye.”
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:20]4

Yajurveda
The following verses from the Yajurveda echo a similar concept of God:

"na tasya pratima asti
“There is no image of Him.”
[Yajurveda 32:3]5

“shudhama poapvidham”
“He is bodyless and pure.”
[Yajurveda 40:8]6

“Andhatama pravishanti ye asambhuti mupaste”
“They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements” (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). “They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti.”
[Yajurveda 40:9]7

Sambhuti means created things, for example table, chair, idol, etc.

The Yajurveda contains the following prayer:
“Lead us to the good path and remove the sin that makes us stray and wander.”
[Yajurveda 40:16]8

5
Atharvaveda
The Atharvaveda praises God in Book 20, hymn 58 and verse 3:

“Dev maha osi”
“God is verily great”
[Atharvaveda 20:58:3]9

Rigveda

The oldest of all the vedas is Rigveda. It is also the one considered most sacred by the Hindus. The Rigveda states in Book 1, hymn 164 and verse 46:
“Sages (learned Priests) call one God by many names.”
[Rigveda 1:164:46]

The Rigveda gives several different attributes to Almighty God. Many of these are mentioned in Rigveda Book 2 hymn 1.

Among the various attributes of God, one of the beautiful attributes mentioned in the Rigveda Book II hymn 1 verse 3, is Brahma. Brahma means ‘The Creator’. Translated into Arabic it means Khaaliq. Muslims can have no objection if Almighty God is referred to as Khaaliq or ‘Creator’ or Brahma.

above was written 1500 bc as concept of god

I see not an iota of difference in our concept of God and this ^ concept of God in ancient hindu scriptures.

In Quran Allah says " Call him (Allah) by most beautiful of names"

I see no problem in Calling Allah, Bhagwan , Barhama or Eeshwar

[vineshvk]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

@PyariCgudia

That analogy is fine, except that the use of “khuda” by zoroastrians is gone down considerably … given that most zoroastrians converted out of their religion. A very small community is left in comparison to what once was.

Whereas, hindus have not been mostly converted to Islam - hindus form a majority population on the subcontinent. Therefore, the term “Bhagwan” is not falling out of use with the hindu-based meaning. “Khuda” on the other hand has fallen out of use. The term “God” is based out of Abrahamic traditions, and we believe in the same prophets for the most part. And “Allah” simply means God. The trinity belief is a belief that has become integrated into Christianity much recently, otherwise in the Prophet’s time, the flavor of the religion was still quite monotheistic. Even today, scholars are switching out of referring to Christianity as a monotheistic religion, since the trinity doesn’t fall into the df of a monotheistic religion.

And lets not forget our closest brethren in religion - the Jews - they use the term God as well and that too in a monotheistic sense.

Fact of the matter is this slogan has been heavily used politically against the the idea of a separate nation for muslims (i.e. Pakistan). The idea is that if muslims start thinking that Hindus worship the same God, then we’ll give up on the idea of Pakistan. I see it more as a political manipulation tool more than anything else. Otherwise, you’d see more hindus referring to “Bhagwan” as “Allah”, which they wont do unless put into a quasi-political situation, like a muslim singer and a hindu singer singing together (just an example).

Can someone look up where and when this bhajjan exactly originated?

You can say that you believe in one God all you want, but the presence of other Gods in your tradition and in your religious books says otherwise. Muslims believe in One God who shares no power with any other individual entity, whereas hindus simply don’t believe that.

No Queer, I perfectly understand. You can come up with a counterargument when you are ready.

When we hindus say that there is only one God and he can take different forms.. why dont u just believe that it is like that in Hinduism. Do u know more about hinduism than we do.

[Sharaabi]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

^^ not an iota of difference?? i'll show you an iota.

"shudhama poapvidham"
"He is bodyless and pure."
[Yajurveda 40:8]6

That does not apply to Allah, since Allah has a Face and Hands, etc. Hence Allah has a Body, but its different to ours, and not one we can conceive.

I guess you can call him by any name in Sanskrit that means Lord, Rabb, God etc. But using their bhajjans in prayer, or incorporating their concept of god into our beliefs, is just not right.

I dont know why we need to look into a pagan religion for reference, when we have The Quran. Height of ignorance.

[Pinstripe_Danda]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

“That does not apply to Allah, since Allah has a Face and Hands, etc. Hence Allah has a Body, but its different to ours, and not one we can conceive”

You should revert brother and become a hindu and attain moksha, you have just made god in your image. :nono:

[Sharaabi]

Re: Eeshwar Allah tero naam

Read what i wrote, again.