Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
You simply cannot be a hypocrite with massive chip on the shoulder who says "no military in civilian affairs" yet expect fully functioning and result producing NAP.
Want Army out of civilian affairs? Simply reject NAP.
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
Its coming.. :yawn:
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
....Want Army out of civilian affairs? Simply reject NAP.
NAP was instituted a few months ago.
Was army out of civilian affairs before that?
Do you even read what you have written before posting?
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
Another one here.. Told ya, its written on the wall.. 
King RaheelCYRIL ALMEIDA — PUBLISHED SEP 20, 2015 07:41AM
The writer is a member of staff.
IT’S silly season again. For some reason the week began with, the best there was, the best there is, the best there ever will be — King Raheel. May God save him and may he save the rest of us.
Then, because the gods like to play around with us, the Badaber hiccup happened. But, because he’s also Teflon Raheel, it didn’t matter.
A massive attack was thwarted. Thirty lives were lost, but tragedy was averted. The chief was on the ground and in charge. The terrorists will never win while Raheel is around.
It’s easy to forget that we’ve seen all of this before.
Back when Musharraf was king, back when Kayani was saviour. It’s pretty standard fare, a pretty standard arc. Luckily for Raheel, memories here are shorter than a chief’s tenure.
Go back to 2002. Musharraf had saved Pakistan. The court had given him three years; he had taken over with economic collapse beckoning and when Pakistan was an international pariah after the nuclear tests.
For good measure, the outside world had tired of dictators in Pakistan.
Three years in, Pakistan was in love with its commando. 9/11 may have helped rehabilitate him internationally, but his seven-point agenda had helped steady the ship domestically.
Corruption was down, professionalism was in, the country looked like it was set to go places — and the architect of the turnaround was the straight-talking patriot, Musharraf.
[HR][/HR]It’s easy to forget that we’ve seen all of this before.
[HR][/HR]
It’s probably what convinced him to go for the fatal referendum. His court-mandated three years were up, but he was popular as hell. Pakistan needed him. How could he say no?
If he hadn’t rigged the referendum, he would probably have won it handily anyway. But rig he did and five more years he granted himself.
We all know how that turned out.
Turn to 2008. The military was being pummelled by public opinion and militancy. Soldiers were advised not to wear uniforms in public. Lal Masjid had produced an epic blowback. The lawyers’ movement had sapped military morale.
The country was going downhill and fast. Enter Kayani. Yes, Kayani.
There he was, the thinking general. The country had tired of the commando and his brashness; it wanted someone who could figure out what had gone wrong and come up with a plan to restore pride and right the balance.
Kayani was that man. He shuttered the ISI political cell and pulled spooks and soldiers out of politics. He made sure there was no meddling in the elections.
His real love was the army. He announced the Year of the Soldier. Service matters were attended to. Morale was boosted and pay increased.
And he would take the fight to the militants. He orchestrated Swat, first letting the politicians cut the Nizam-i-Adl deal and then expertly exploiting Fazlullah and Sufi Muhammad’s ambitions.
Months later, he took us into South Waziristan, promising to rid it of militants as part of a phased campaign to eventually recover all of Fata.
Times were still tough, but Kayani was the steady hand. He gave us the Kayani moment. Remember that?
Nawaz had threatened to march on Islamabad. Asif had panicked. Rehman Malik wanted to shoot at the protesters if they crossed Pindi. Ifitkhar Chaudhry was enjoying the attention and the storm around him.
But Kayani kept his cool. No, he wasn’t going to take over — he was too good for that. Instead, he had a word with Asif and gave his word to Nawaz and Chaudhry.
Crisis averted. The general had shown the pols how politics was meant to be done.
Come 2010, he was so good and so powerful he could do whatever the hell he liked. So he did — and gave himself a second term.
We all know how that turned out.
Now, it’s King Raheel’s turn. The same arc is there. We don’t need to go over what all he has done. The spin brigade doesn’t tire of telling us.
So, let’s try something else — figuring out how Nawaz helped him become King Raheel. Not wittingly, for Nawaz would surely like to be king himself.
But two fatal errors set the path for Raheel’s walk to glory.
The second one first — that catastrophic failure that was the Jan 2014 speech in parliament. Everything was set for the announcement of a military operation in North Waziristan.
The TTP was rampant again and had to be cut down to size. The military was itching to put the Kayani inertia behind it.
Nawaz could never be a warrior, but he could be a wartime PM. He had already shown decisiveness on Karachi.
Now, it was time to take on the TTP. But he blinked. He loved Punjab too much. Talks were to be given another chance, in the hope of winning a peace for Punjab.
The moment was gone. Five months later, after the Karachi airport attack and with the Chinese growing insistent, Raheel grabbed his chance. North Waziristan would be Raheel’s war.
As would the glory.
The other Nawaz mistake — Musharraf over India. A trade deal with India was on the table. It could have been a game-changer. But the boys didn’t like it.
And the boys were already miffed. Nawaz had vowed to put Musharraf on trial. It was as personal as it was unnecessary. The man who had made him miss his father’s funeral and put him in handcuffs would have to pay.
So Nawaz chose — and he chose wrong. He ended up getting neither — neither a trade deal with India nor Musharraf’s scalp. Counterfactuals are difficult things, but imagine if Nawaz had put his foot down on the right thing.
But that’s history. The man who would have been king helped pave the path for the man who is king. It’s Raheel’s kingdom now.
So all hail the king — and try and forget that you’ve seen all of this before.
*
The writer is a member of staff.
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
NAP was instituted a few months ago.
Was army out of civilian affairs before that?
Do you even read what you have written before posting?
Nope. Why pick and choose. Reject NAP wholeheartedly if army's involvement pains you so much. Then we'll talk.
Call off Karachi operation.
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
NAP was instituted a few months ago. ?
Exactly why suddenly "Army's involvement becames an issue" after Dr Asim's arrest and potential terror funding crackdown in Punjab?
There were no objections on NAP earlier on, were they? Clearly the agenda is something else.
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
Exactly why suddenly "Army's involvement becames an issue" ....
It has always been an issue since inception of Pakistan.
...Reject NAP wholeheartedly if army's involvement pains you so much. Then we'll talk.
Call off Karachi operation.
I can't reply these senseless life1esque saas-bahu arguments anymore.
Godspeed.
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
It has always been an issue since inception of Pakistan.
I can't reply these senseless life1esque saas-bahu arguments anymore.
Godspeed.
So when asked about double standards, the argument becomes senseless. Seems like a trick one picks up from spending too much time in Saas Bahu forum. Good going.
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
Rangers get army officers deputed in the force, though they serve the civilian government as well, but Rangers is an interior ministry force like FC. I would classify it more as an RCMP (canadian) type force than the typical BSF or US Border Patrol. Civilized western countries routinely call in army for natural disasters, so I don't know how raheel shareef or army is doing pakistan a favor?
Do you think that a prime minister imran khan won't call army for flood relief? In fact, imran called for army and paramilitary troops for elections and called for ISI to verify votes while being anti-military and all posh "brown sahib" in the same sentence.
How does that work?
Let the excuses flow.
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
Rangers get army officers deputed in the force, though they serve the civilian government as well, but Rangers is an interior ministry force like FC. I would classify it more as an RCMP (canadian) type force than the typical BSF or US Border Patrol. Civilized western countries routinely call in army for natural disasters, so I don't know how raheel shareef or army is doing pakistan a favor? Do you think that a prime minister imran khan won't call army for flood relief? In fact, imran called for army and paramilitary troops for elections and called for ISI to verify votes while being anti-military and all posh "brown sahib" in the same sentence.
How does that work? Let the excuses flow.
Come on man. You really think DG rangers report to Qaim Ali Shah or Ch Nisar? Rangers are line managed by Corps Commander Karachi. The current form of FC was creation of Musharraf, he calls Rangers and FC diluted version of Army, and they report to local corps Command. On paper they may be jointly "owned" by civilians and military, but we know who line manages them.
In Chitral flooding, KPK police was seen doing lower level relief and rescue work, but they need more training. Imran asked for Army in KPK when all parties in KPK accused PTI of rigging, and him in usual manner said 'fine let's have a re-election under Army', since ANP and JUI weren't ready to accept KPK police's authority. At least he managed to resolve the issue of rigging allegation somehow, unlike Nawaz Sharif and his kitchen cabinet.
The bitter truth is in 126 days of dharna which happened right outside the gates of Supreme Court, it COAS who had to intervene and promise investigation. Not your supreme court! In a normal functional democracy which institution would have been the first to respond to the call of rigging investigation?
So whining about Raheel Sharif popularity on twitter ain't going to strengthen your jamhooriyat. You need to ask your civil institution that why aren't they performing!
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
They are both federal forces, so technically they should report to Ch. Nisar with information to qaim etc on need-to-know basis.
You are expecting 'suo moto' which isn't part of american system and probably not in europe either. People were upset with the activist chaudhry when he was doing suo motos.
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
They are both federal forces, so technically they should report to Ch. Nisar with information to qaim etc on need-to-know basis.
You are expecting 'suo moto' which isn't part of american system and probably not in europe either. People were upset with the activist chaudhry when he was doing suo motos.
Well technically a lot of things in Pakistan shouldn't really happen, i.e Rangers policing Karachi, that's not their job, right?
That Chaudary character went over the top with suo mottos. Taking suo motto over Atiqa Odho's wine bottles, wth! The sou motto king had done jack sheet to improve judiciary from within. He just wanted his 15 minutes fame every minute of the day.
But suo motto are part of Pakistan's judicial system, and since a lot of petition against rigging were resting in Supreme Court already, SC could have intervened as the situation was on the brink of civil war like situation. If you don't want generals to get credit, politicians are useless, then ask your lord saaabs to start delivering.
You can jump up and down about so called improvement in economy, but a lot of your human capital overseas won't invest in Pakistan because they have no hope in your justice system, That's common man's problem, not truck with Raheel Sharif's picture on or twitter hastags.
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
I don't know if you know this, but Rangers have been policing karachi since the late eighties.
I think Shamraz here is the pakistani constitutional expert, but I believe that securing life and property is a job of all govts so deploying a federal force for just that is within the law. In fact, the 1996 karachi operation that Imran vehemently supported had Rangers, IB and karachi police working together. I think that you are getting confused since it seems UK doesn't have an RCMP type policing / border security force.
Ideally, Rangers should be used sparingly by the federal govt like state police or texas rangers are used in the US. Perhaps, VIP security should be Rangers purview to free up police resources, but then ISI shouldn't be involved in internal pakistani matters (IB should be the lead here). IB should probably be working with FIA more which itself should be reorganized, but that will really pull this thread to a tangent.
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
Rangers causalities and death rate in Karachi in the past had been quite high compare to last year or so. It is only in present that Rangers' work is producing visible positive change and it proves that only now that they have full mandate to go after political criminal elements which was the main cause behind violence and terrorism in Karachi. Using their presence as some sort 'deterrence' didn't work in the past, they needed the mandate to raid and arrest high profile targets, confiscate weapons.
You are talking about technicalities and on the paper rules. If we talk about Constitution, then Nawaz Sharif doesn't qualify as PM since he's a loan defaulter and his finance minister had confirmed his money laundering in the eyes of law. Constitution is strictly against this. So Rangers/FC may be owned by federal government on paper, but they are not line managed by them. Their command structure leads to army.
I don't believe in paramilitary forces policing cities. Yes you can have elite police force, but paramilitary troops are something else. Rangers wouldn't be in Karachi if Sindh's elite force is not used for guarding Bilawal House, CM house and all those rich waderas palaces in Karachi. Same story in Punjab. Punjab Elite force is used as Sharif Family's personal guards. Then you think of the kind of money elite police force eats up from police and security budget, and see how politicians use state resources for personal use.
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
Well, that is the job of civil society + media to uncover and help stop the abuse.
Coming to think of it, I don't think that Sindh has an elite police force. Since i have been born and then left pakistan, rangers were the elite police force for sindh. Even though we don't have local police forces and precincts, Rangers still operate like a provincial or state wide police force like we have in the US.
In US, we have the local town, village or city police, sheriffs for protecting courts and sometimes even policing in some states and then state polices that have jurisdictions all over the state. They are the ones who give you tickets for speeding etc on interstate and other expressways. Come to think of it, my state university had a full fledged police force like most universities who could afford it.
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
After so much of exposing, at some point you need some accountability and handing out of punishment. There's a clear divide in Pakistan(is) between those who think your democracy is endangered if idols of corruption fall and those who think country and democracy would be strengthened with a decriminalised system.
Sindh does have an elite police and that is basically treated as Bilawal and PPP minister's personal guards. This is why common man doesn't know that they have an elite police. It is not to provide services to the public.
Rangers in present mode should stay in Karachi, I may not like the idea of paramilitary troops policing the city, considering I am from a country who still has an unarmed police force! But I am not the type to get so bogged down with fuddy duddy rhetoric to stop practical changes from happening. So what matters is Karachi's peace and return of its capital from Dubai, Malaysia, Singapore. With promise of CPEC, I don't think Army is in any mood for Karachi to fall back to the dogs again, Rangers may not continue their operations with same intensity in future depending on the change in command they receive from the top, but they're definitely not going anytime soon.
But even with Rangers in charge, you would still need to address the elephant in the room which is Sindh police. What is their role and future? Even if you reduce Sindh police down to ticket officer's level, they would still have to do their job properly and honestly, and who's going to ensure that?
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
Could we not have honest disagreements without people's loyalties being questioned? Especially by those sitting in far away places such as the UK. Yes, I'm talking to you Jolie.
Every single person who has disagreed with you has been called disloyal, a liar, in love with the politico's, or just plain jealous. Is this what you pickup from that cradle of liberal democracy you call home? Why shouldn't your intentions and loyalties be questioned for abandoning the motherland in her time of need? Why aren't you on the ground fighting the good war with the army?
I see that you aren't much of a fan of CJ choudhry anymore. The real comedy is that those of us who objected to his methods at the time were treated by IK and his disciples, such as yourself, exactly as you're treating those who might not be 100% behind every syllable that leaves the blessed mouth of the chief.
Old problem with cults. The leader can do no wrong as long as he's the leader. Leaves very little room for nuance. Most people that you have been bashing are supporters of the chief and his push to clean up house. They just aren't blind supporters.
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
I am not a fan of CJ "anymore"? Errr I don't think I was in this forum when the thing happened, nor I have ever claimed to support him. Any movement to fight for free and independant judiciary is never a bad idea, but CJ was too politicised to be reinstated. He should not have been allowed to carry on working even if he was symbolically restored. I strongly believed in this even when my interest in Pakistani politics was limited.
If you are going to throw why are you not in motherland retort. Then we can go around the table asking the same question. When everyone answers why they have "abandoned" the motherland, I will chip in my view as well. Otherwise I'm not going to fall for this bait and stop myself from saying what I have to say. This is certainly not the worst example of whatabouttry thrown at me.
As with me not being armed forces, if only I were a boy and obsessed with cricket and music, my grandfather would have sent me to military academy to 'fix' myself as he did with others. But what can I do, destiny wanted me to remain a 'bloody civilian'. Even joining the technical and research wing of Pakistan Armed forces was never an option thanks to my love for arts. Can't even bloody cook to apply for chef's job in military.
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
Could we not have honest disagreements without people's loyalties being questioned? Especially by those sitting in far away places such as the UK. Yes, I'm talking to you Jolie.
Every single person who has disagreed with you has been called disloyal, a liar, in love with the politico's, or just plain jealous. .
Specially for chacha ghalib...
Phool Ki Patti se Kat Sakta ha Heeray Ka Jigar
Mard e Nadan per Kilam e Narm o Nazuk Bay Asar
Mard-e-nadan ca be replaced by what ever u need.
Re: Does the military still control Pakistan?
Could we not have honest disagreements without people's loyalties being questioned? Especially by those sitting in far away places such as the UK. Yes, I'm talking to you Jolie.
Every single person who has disagreed with you has been called disloyal, a liar, in love with the politico's, or just plain jealous. Is this what you pickup from that cradle of liberal democracy you call home? Why shouldn't your intentions and loyalties be questioned for abandoning the motherland in her time of need? Why aren't you on the ground fighting the good war with the army?
I see that you aren't much of a fan of CJ choudhry anymore. The real comedy is that those of us who objected to his methods at the time were treated by IK and his disciples, such as yourself, exactly as you're treating those who might not be 100% behind every syllable that leaves the blessed mouth of the chief.
Old problem with cults. The leader can do no wrong as long as he's the leader. Leaves very little room for nuance. Most people that you have been bashing are supporters of the chief and his push to clean up house. They just aren't blind supporters.
The problem with Pakistanis is that as a country you are just not used to producing popular public figures so whenever someone becomes popular, you lot are quick to feel so insecure and call them 'demigod', 'god' or whatever, and whoever supports them becomes a 'blind worshipers' or 'cult' - because you are not used to these things. From Malala to COAS - it's the same old retarded opposition where after a point you just cannot stand the person for being famous and well supported.
The cradle of democracy I call home doesn't have this stupid tradition, they like and fuel competition, not suppress it or demonise it, or build self pitying paranoia like some people here are doing just because Army chief trends on twitter. Really? Yes this is lame and reeks of jealousy Things are usually quite fierce yet well balanced in media over here. Tell you what, majority of British people appreciated Alex Salmond simply because he introduced new debates and ideas in politics, and politically engaged the depressingly apolytical British youth. One things leads to another here - popularity of Alex Salmond made Brits focus on Labour party's leadership woes and they quickly discovered someone like Corbyn and gave him enough space to become equally popular to balance things out. This is why over here they call democracy a self correcting mindset and a system. Why can't Pakistanis just follow this simple formula instead of acting so insecure and paranoid all the time about everything and everybody? You are quick to call IK and COAS a god and demigod just because they enjoy passionate support.
Don't you even dare excuse me of being a blind Army worshipper, I was here for full five years when Kiyani was criticised in media and public for his inaction, lack of leadership and lack of communication with the public, and I strongly believed it was quite useless of him to hide being bickering politicians because if he wanted he could have called operation any minute. Even his ex employee had called him out for mishandling the situation.
But if you think mocking, taunting, jeering an Army Chief just because he's popular with your youth on social media, make damaging accusation of him plotting to overtake is not highly pathetic, lame and disgusting, then good for you. Referencing international media as final word is even more pathetic in my eyes because this the same media that almost blacklisted your country for handing over the nukes to Taliban. It is not a coincidence that propaganda against Army Chief had intensified after Dr Asim's arrest, and some people's agenda can be questioned. If opposing this makes me a cult, blind worshiper or whatever, big frecking deal.
Army Chief may or may not be here after a year, but those who are using this opportunity to create division, mistrust, tensions, sense of betrayal, panic and paranoia are not doing anyone a favour when a war in your country is happening at multiple fronts!