Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

[Southie]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

Post 28 first half covered what I had to say.

[Southie]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

@redvelvet

Um okay, so now you’re going to thank people who believe gays are human? Why? Is it because you think refusal to pipe “Support Gay Marriage” equates to believing that gays are not human, that they should be banished or killed? I’m beginning to wonder if the purpose of the thread is to get a count of how many Muslims believe gays should have rights and to use the results to either openly pose the question as to why they are then so averse to piping on a cake or perhaps to validate to yourself your own views about gays and Muslims. Just wonderin’.

You will note that I thanked several who posted. Including some who had opposing views. I expect a civil discourse without unnecessary accusations.

I am deleting my post above to you cause I see you have arrived with an attitude. And I don’t want trouble. Had I seen this earlier I won’t have posted above post.

Thanks for not taking this further.

[goodname]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

Yes, gays deserve the same rights and access to same benefits and opportunities that others enjoy. Their sexual orientation doesn’t really affect anyone else and there is certainly a lot more to a person than just that. Obsessing over just one aspect of an individual and using sexual orientation of gays as the rationale to discriminate against them when they are otherwise mostly perfectly decent individuals like others seems quite unfair.

[TLK]

@Southie:10077460

@""TLK""

I tell you what Islam says, and my personal opinion sits somewhat close to it. Islam says that as long as you are not bragging (confessing) about your illicit love affair to another person, and doing it discreetly and it remains a secret without more than three people learning about it with absolute certainty, then the matter is between you and your creator, and no men made law should punish you.

Thanks. What happens when more than 3 people learn about it with absolute certainly? What is the punishment? Are you in favor of this punishment?

Also, how is absolute certainty defined in the religion (I bring up religion since you stated your views are close to it)? Is it one of the following?

1. if they saw the act of illicit love affair?
2. They heard it from the person first hand?
   3).They heard it 2nd hand?

Do you personally agree with the religiously accepted definition of absolute certainty?

How is illicit love affair defined? Is sex before marriage considered thusly? Or only sec outside marriage? And do you agree with this definition?

80 lashes used to be the punishment for out of wed sex. Either the person confesses or four people witness the act of intercourse like you see the thread going into the eye of the needle.

Do I agree? Well I think that those punishments were the need of that time. Things need to be revised.

Plus these punishments are only valid in a real Islamic state. There is no such thing like that in the world, so these punishments don’t apply.

[Southie]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

@TLK

It’s not about judging each other. The thread is about the law of societies. France is going to punish you if you have a scarf on your head, KSA is going to punish you if you are a man, having sex with another man. There is lot of injustice happening in the world. In fact, when innocent lives are getting lost in Palestine, discussing rights of gays seems odd somewhat.

Thanks for your input, TLK.

This thread is not about laws of society. This thread is about each individuals opinion on the question posed. Just wanted to clarify. Having said that, as OP, I am open to whatever direction the thread takes us. Sometimes the discussions are quite informative when they digress. But I digress.

You brought up France punishing you for scarf and KSE for homosexuality. What r the respective punishments. Do u consider them equivalent?

I respectfully disagree with your last statement. Let me ask you a question - have you sp lent the last two weeks only discussing the Palestinian situation in your free time? Have you participated in any other thread that doesn’t deal with the Palestinian issue? If the answer is yes to either question, I think your finding this odd is out of place. For me, at least.

It is also funny you used the word injustice in that sentence. Several reasonable people would associate the word with society’s treatment of gays. I wouldn’t have stated this but for your last sentence.

[Southie]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

@TLK

80 lashes used to be the punishment for out of wed sex. Either the person confesses or four people witness the act of intercourse like you see the thread going into the eye of the needle.

Do I agree? Well I think that those punishments were the need of that time. Things need to be revised.

Plus these punishments are only valid in a real Islamic state. There is no such thing like that in the world, so these punishments don’t apply.

Thanks TLK. So how would you revise the 80 lashes punishment? Would you be in favor of Punishment. If yes, what would that be?

[TLK]

When I said injustice, I did include discrimination and hatred of society fit gays in that.

[Southie]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

@TLK

When I said injustice, I did include discrimination and hatred of society fit gays in that.

So why would you find it odd we are discussing our opinion of gays and what their rights ought to be. Maybe you didn’t mean that. I won’t press it further. But that last sentence kind of caught me off guard coming from you.

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

@Reha

They might not openly condone it but let’s be real…its happening more often than not isn’t it? The same people who date and have no issues with intimacy outside of marriage are also against homosexuality.

No, it doesn’t.

Careless and unprotected sex spreads AIDS and other diseases. Its not just gay people who have AIDS, you know that right?

but 90% AIDs is due to Gay people. Google it.

@amber19

As a community I don’t see them harming us so as long as their lifestyle isn’t a threat to the general people, I say live and let live.

Only Allah can judge them and I don’t really understand how them being gay or wanting to marry affects heterosexual couples. The same rights should be extended to everyone because everyone is equal before the law.

If u talk about ALLAH and bring ALLAH in this matter as u said that ALLAH will judge and we can not. For u info, if u are muslim, let me tell u, that ALLAH has clearly said in QURRAN mujeed that Homosexuality is not allowed and such things should be discouraged. For example, QURRAN MAJEED tells us about “Qoum-e-Lout”,. They were involved in homosexuality, and see what happened to them. ALLAH sent against them a violent tornado with shower of stones which destroyed them all. That was AZAB-E-ALLHI. The point is, ALLAH has already JUDGED homosexuality, in QURRAN MAJEED and ordered us to discourage such anti natural things. Problem is u guys are tooooo secular, infact champs of secularism. Infact, that is another form of extremism. Gays and homosexuality should be discouraged in every society… I explained all that cz u brought ALLAH in this matter, ALLAH has given his Decision in QURRAN MAJEED.. If that was ur personal opinion i have no issue, but if u bring ALLAH in ths matter, let me tel u that ALLAH has given his Decision

[bella88]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

@Princejall

but 90% AIDs is due to Gay people. Google it.

Really? Africa has one of the highest number of AIDS patients, and its all mainly spread by HETEROSEXUALS. One third of the population in Botswana is infected with AIDS. please get your facts straight, not from some religious website. also in western countries, a high number of AIDS was due to sharing needles for IV drug injection among drug addicts.

If u talk about ALLAH and bring ALLAH in this matter as u said that ALLAH will judge and we can not. For u info, if u are muslim, let me tell u, that ALLAH has clearly said in QURRAN mujeed that Homosexuality is not allowed and such things should be discouraged. For example, QURRAN MAJEED tells us about “Qoum-e-Lout”,. They were involved in homosexuality, and see what happened to them. ALLAH sent against them a violent tornado with shower of stones which destroyed them all. That was AZAB-E-ALLHI. The point is, ALLAH has already JUDGED homosexuality, in QURRAN MAJEED and ordered us to discourage such anti natural things. Problem is u guys are tooooo secular, infact champs of secularism. Infact, that is another form of extremism. Gays and homosexuality should be discouraged in every society… I explained all that cz u brought ALLAH in this matter, ALLAH has given his Decision in QURRAN MAJEED.. If that was ur personal opinion i have no issue, but if u bring ALLAH in ths matter, let me tel u that ALLAH has given his Decision

Allah tells you its a sin, so please stay away from it. its between you an Allah, its not anyone elses business. everryone might not believe holy books or religion like you do. if God punished qoum e lut, then let God punish these people too, its not our job. as far as natural disasters, please don’t blame them on homosexuals. there was a terrible earthquake in Pakistan which killed thousands of people in 2008 in kashmir and punjab, im sure most people that died were heterosexuals. there is countless natural disasters all over the world such as floods, tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes which kill both homosexuals and heterosexuals.

[Pakistani_Prince]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

1-1st of all this theory “its nt ur business cz its my life” is not acceptable.. If somethng bad is happening in society , then we must stop it in order to discourge it and to save other people. Also ALLAH says, if u see something evil or bad in society stop it with ur hand… So ur “its nt ur bussiness Theory” is invalid.
2-Secondly, it is clearly written in QURRAN MUJEED that quom e Lout was punished due to their Homosexuality.. So do nt confuse the situation with earthquicks in punjb and Kashmir. Clearly You are confused here.
3- i wil stil reinforce my above statment that 90% AIDs is due to gays. Lets suppose if Gays spread only 5% of AIDs, even then, we must condamn it , cz still It is spreading AIDs.
4- let me say it, u guys can support Gays , as long as u are in West, US or Europe , but as soon as u enter into Muslim states, U got to abide by such laws, otherwise get ready for Punishments, as many muslim countries have strict Punishments. We will never let u practise Homosexuality in Muslims countries. You are free to Prictise it in europe. BRAVO musilm countries @bella88

[Reha]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

@redvelvet

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I haven’t read that the Prophet Lut (pbuh) denied the gay people in his community their basic rights (to work, to eat, etc etc) though he forbade homosexuality. He warned them, but I don’t recall hearing that he responded with aggression toward them. But nevertheless, I doubt he’d pipe “support gay marriage” on a cake when he he was actively forbidding it. So, keeping this example in mind, I still think it’s wrong to coerce a person to pipe a message that they know will be used to rally a cause that is against their beliefs. Something is better than nothing. Give both groups something rather than to give one group (the religious) nothing in terms of rights at all. It is a discrimination, but coercion better? I don’t think so.

This is actually a great point.

Homosexuality in Islam is considered wrong. Of course.

But ANOTHER concept our faith teaches us is tolerance…of every single kind of creation out there. And that is apparently ignored.

Denying basic human rights to gay people is not something that is up to us…if Allah swt created them then we respect them. We don’t follow them, we simply respect their existence. If our Prophet (saw) can respect a woman that threw garbage on Him every single day…then why do Muslims of today consider themselves above His examples?

I don’t understand the lack of humility these days. Log apne aap ko samajne kya lagay hein? Aur kyun? Why? The answer is simple: its **easier **to NOT be tolerant. Its **easier **to NOT train yourself to control your objections. Its **HARDER **to give someone respect you don’t like…but that’s what the essence of Islam is…the idea of Jihad is an INNER struggle…to overcome the negativity and embrace tolerance and good.

Muslims are very quick to jump to stopping things physically with force like our example above…because its easier and we’re too lazy to have any self control. Its harder to learn from our Prophet (saw) and that is why NO ONE focuses on His accomplishments and HOW He accomplished them. What was His method? He didn’t just go around beating people and slapping them around Nauzubillah. He won people with love and his kindness…that is a lost cause these days.

[bella88]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

@Princejall

We will never let u practise Homosexuality in Muslims countries. You are free to Prictise it in europe. BRAVO musilm countries @bella88

its legal in Turkey, Albania,and Bosnia. as far as majority of muslim countries, I hope more homosexuals are able to get asylum in western countries. that would be the humane thing to do. But the problem with that is that plenty of straight people are faking to be gay just to get to Europe as they allow homosexuals to migrate to Europe on basis of persecution. so straight people are making it hard for those poor suffering homosexuals to leave those barbaric countries where they are being killed! whos to blame here? how about condemning those lying fraudulent heterosexuals for making it so difficult for homosexuals to flee those countries?

[Reha]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

@Princejall

1-1st of all this theory “its nt ur business cz its my life” is not acceptable.. If somethng bad is happening in society , then we must stop it in order to discourge it and to save other people. Also ALLAH says, if u see something evil or bad in society stop it with ur hand… So ur “its nt ur bussiness Theory” is invalid.
2-Secondly, it is clearly written in QURRAN MUJEED that quom e Lout was punished due to their Homosexuality.. So do nt confuse the situation with earthquicks in punjb and Kashmir. Clearly You are confused here.
3- i wil stil reinforce my above statment that 90% AIDs is due to gays. Lets suppose if Gays spread only 5% of AIDs, even then, we must condamn it , cz still It is spreading AIDs.
4- let me say it, u guys can support Gays , as long as u are in West, US or Europe , but as soon as u enter into Muslim states, U got to abide by such laws, otherwise get ready for Punishments, as many muslim countries have strict Punishments. We will never let u practise Homosexuality in Muslims countries. You are free to Prictise it in europe. BRAVO musilm countries @bella88

THis makes no sense…you cannot put a ban on homosexuality. It exists…even in Pakistan it exists…lol.

What do you mean let you practice? Letting or not letting doesn’t mean its not happening…hope you know that.

And your statistics are ALL wrong. I want to see some real proof behing the claim that 90% of AIDS comes from gay people…lol. Hava mein batein…lol.

Agar sach mein koi suboot hai, to baat karo. Varna aye vayeen chorna…not good.

[amber19]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

@Princejall

but 90% AIDs is due to Gay people. Google it.

If u talk about ALLAH and bring ALLAH in this matter as u said that ALLAH will judge and we can not. For u info, if u are muslim, let me tell u, that ALLAH has clearly said in QURRAN mujeed that Homosexuality is not allowed and such things should be discouraged. For example, QURRAN MAJEED tells us about “Qoum-e-Lout”,. They were involved in homosexuality, and see what happened to them. ALLAH sent against them a violent tornado with shower of stones which destroyed them all. That was AZAB-E-ALLHI. The point is, ALLAH has already JUDGED homosexuality, in QURRAN MAJEED and ordered us to discourage such anti natural things. Problem is u guys are tooooo secular, infact champs of secularism. Infact, that is another form of extremism. Gays and homosexuality should be discouraged in every society… I explained all that cz u brought ALLAH in this matter, ALLAH has given his Decision in QURRAN MAJEED.. If that was ur personal opinion i have no issue, but if u bring ALLAH in ths matter, let me tel u that ALLAH has given his Decision

You can’t use Islam or Allah’s will to decide what a non-Muslim nation decides to do for its citizens. What you are saying is your own opinion, but nations cannot be governed by opinions or even religious beliefs. That will never work in the Us or Canada, where the majority are not Muslim.

The nations which are dealing with gay rights and marriage laws are not Islamic. That’s my point. When governing a country which has a multitude of different people from different religions and cultures - you cannot use religion to make a decision. Under law - everyone is the same. So equal rights should be extended to all.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

This is addressed to all the practicing Muslims who have advocated for equal benefits and gay marriages.

Just a simple question. Answer it in ‘yes’ or ‘No’. I’m not interested in indulging in this discussion, other than one point.

As a Muslim, do you think, Islam allows institutionalizing gay marriages? yes or no?

[amber19]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

@muqawwee123

This is addressed to all the practicing Muslims who have advocated for equal benefits and gay marriages.

Just a simple question. Answer it in ‘yes’ or ‘No’. I’m not interested in indulging in this discussion, other than one point.

As a Muslim, do you think, Islam allows institutionalizing gay marriages? yes or no?

No.

[redvelvet]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

@amber19

You can’t use Islam or Allah’s will to decide what a non-Muslim nation decides to do for its citizens. **What you are saying is your own opinion, but **nations cannot be governed by opinions or even religious beliefs. That will never work in the Us or Canada, where the majority are not Muslim.

The nations which are dealing with gay rights and marriage laws are not Islamic. That’s my point. When governing a country which has a multitude of different people from different religions and cultures - you cannot use religion to make a decision. Under law - everyone is the same. So equal rights should be extended to all.

True he cannot change the laws of non-Muslim countries, but he should not be chided for saying that the Gay Marriage laws are not in accordance with the Quran. Just because one is able to honestly admit what Allah says in the Quran…DOES NOT mean that they will take the laws of a country into their hands, or violate them.

And, no, it’s not just his opinion. To non-Muslims it reads as “just as his opinion” and nothing more than that. But Muslims know it’s not just his opinion, that he’s repeating a divine judgment; Allah’s judgment. Again, this honesty, does not necessarily mean that one will violate the laws of a country that protect a group of people.

[Reha]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

@muqawwee123

This is addressed to all the practicing Muslims who have advocated for equal benefits and gay marriages.

Just a simple question. Answer it in ‘yes’ or ‘No’. I’m not interested in indulging in this discussion, other than one point.

As a Muslim, do you think, Islam allows institutionalizing gay marriages? yes or no?

This thread is not about marriage so why are we even discussing gay marriage? Its about equal rights…meaning human right…like health benefits, etc.

[OYMWA]

Re: Do gays deserve the same rights and access to benefits as the straights?

@muqawwee123

This is addressed to all the practicing Muslims who have advocated for equal benefits and gay marriages.

Just a simple question. Answer it in ‘yes’ or ‘No’. I’m not interested in indulging in this discussion, other than one point.

As a Muslim, do you think, Islam allows institutionalizing gay marriages? yes or no?

No. But try to ask the same question about Riba or Alcohol. Most major banks in Pakistan are based on Riba and the govt issues licenses to breweries. Is that not a form of institutionalizing a sin?