Divorced People

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Divorced People

Diwana's above post is the post of the day. That's GS Strong.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Divorced People

And by the way, why are they using the word "fondling" in that hadeeth? Makes one very uncomfortable.

[SaeedinPakistan]

Re: Divorced People

Yeah, cause intercourse shuts down your libido.

Have sex once and then you don't wanna have it for the rest of your life. If it were that simple.

[delhi2lahorekarachi]

Re: Divorced People

@diwana

So the discussion about divorced people continues.

On one hand it is argued that virgins are preferred and on the other hand they are not really preferred.

Some points to ponder from TLK post(s) above.

1- The hadith as I said earlier does appear an incidence where it is merely a question, but not admonition to marry a divorced/widow.

2- Other fiqah rules based on hadiths have something to back up such as the Prophet SAW himself also doing Wudoo, lifting his clothes above ankle etc.

3- The Prophet SAW, after Khadija RA again married to second wife who was NOT virgin. And this was AFTER Jibraeel AS was revealed and Islam had begun. (~610H)

[They are 13 wives as follow with period of marriage shown between brackets.

[ol]
[li]Khadijah bint Khuwaylid (595–619)[/li][li]Sawda bint Zamʿa (619–632)[/li][li]Aisha bint Abi Bakr (619–632)[/li][li]Hafsa bint Umar (624–632)[/li][li]Zaynab bint Khuzayma (625–627)[/li][li]Hind bint Abi Umayya (629–632)[/li][li]Zaynab bint Jahsh (627–632)[/li][li]Juwayriya bint al-Harith (628–632)[/li][li]Ramlah bint Abi Sufyan (628–632)[/li][li]Rayhana bint Zayd (629–631)[/li][li]Safiyya bint Huyayy (629–632)[/li][li]Maymuna bint al-Harith (630–632)[/li][li]Maria al-Qibtiyya (630–632)[/li][/ol]

He SAW, married Sawda RA after Islam. (~610)

4- But then again, the Prophet SAW married to a virgin Aisha RA as his third wife, around the same time.

5- Now, if the Prophet SAW was really a proponent of divorced/widowed people marrying divorced/widowed/matron people then why did He SAW marry to Aisha RA when HE SAW was himself widowed??

6- There is a big risk of making the Prophet SAW as someone Nauzubillah not following his own advice if he indeed wanted virgins to be preferred.

7- And then the statement “Why did you not marry a young girl who would have fondled with you?” does not appear to be a generalized statement applicable to all, only applicable to the particular Sahabi who was actually a young person born probably around 607AD, about 15 years before Hijrat.

8- Does this mean, divorced or widowed don’t know how to fondle or sport? Absolutely not, and hence another proof that this Hadith should nt be taken as a universal advice to men to prefer virgins to marry.

9- There is Quranic and Hadith based proof that pious/religious women are to be preferred over them being wealthy or good looking. (If the choices are otherwise equal)

10- Nowhere in Quran it says marry virgins as much as possible or prefer them as your wives. (If I am wrong, then please provide proof)

11- Bigger risk of making it a rule is that men, if given equal choices will prefer virgins and will not marry divorced or widowed women thinking they are following what the Prophet SAW wanted them to to.

12- Somewhere in Ibn e Maja it is allegedly said to marry virgins since they are sweeter etc. ? But This needs to be checked in detail.

Well, the fiqahi people and Aalims are very respected and it just does not seem right or justified to prefer virgins over matrons just because latter were married before especially the evidence is overwhelmingly against it from the life of the Prophet SAW himself.

13- The prophet SAW had Usman RA Marry his own divorced daughter Ruqayyah the first time and then second divorced daughter Umm Kulsoom again to Usman RA after Ruqayyah RA probably died in 624AD. Both of His SAW daughters RAA, were divorced and remarried is the point here.

Perhaps more reasons for saying virgins are preferred in Islam needed.

Mufti diwana!

Interesting information there Diwana. I agree there is much evidence pointing there is no preference. I have a question for point 11. Why is it that guys would prefer virgins over widowed/divorced spouses (or vice versa)? I mean those who are widowed/divorced would have also been quite moral and not engaged in any sinful behaviour pre-maritally?

[el_topo]

Re: Divorced People

@diwana

Mufti diwana!

Woah, humour! Main sadke jawa <3

[diwana]

Re: Divorced People

@PyariCgudia

Diwana’s above post is the post of the day. That’s GS Strong.

Kabhi Kabhi Yeh Ghalati Ho Jaati Hai…

@delhi2lahorekarachi

Interesting information there Diwana. I agree there is much evidence pointing there is no preference. I have a question for point 11. Why is it that guys would prefer virgins over widowed/divorced spouses (or vice versa)? I mean those who are widowed/divorced would have also been quite moral and not engaged in any sinful behaviour pre-maritally?

In general people around the world do prefer virgins for various reasons.

But what I said was that “if a rule were made” then men would prefer virgins just because they would think this is what intended by Islam…despite that they may have other comparatively speaking similar qualities between a virgin and a divorced/widowed.

One maybe correct saying that everyone is innocent unless proven otherwise, but neither virginity, nor previously married status guarantees moral behavior.

What is not known is simply,… unknown!

@el_topo

Woah, humour! Main sadke jawa <3

[Sara516]

Re: Divorced People

@unknownnn

i just don’t get this thing of unmarried people marrying divorced/widowed. uuffff
why dont divorced people just find someone like them ?

Because they’re not diseased like you think
We went through this in the other thread, but clearly nothing got through…

[Hadeel]

Re: Divorced People

@Sara516

Because they’re not diseased like you think
We went through this in the other thread, but clearly nothing got through…

Exactly!

I feel so sorry for people with these mindsets. Wonder what they’ll have to say about this if they themselves got divorced or someone close to them did and then people rejected them for being used.

[system]

Re: Divorced People

@el_topo

Woah, humour! Main sadke jawa <3

Mufti Diwana is an oxymoron.

[TLK]

Yaar diwana sahab, agar aap ko arabi mauhawara pe uboor nahi tou oos ke English equivalent (fondle) ko topic bana ke hadees ki taang na khenche

Your logic about prophet going back on his own advice is so wrong that I don't know where to start. Islam evolved in 23 years and there are plenty of examples where prophet went back on his own saying. Even the hukm of 4 wives came 11 or 12 years later, and before that Sahaba had up to ten wives. Does that mean that prophet went back on his own words when he asked sahaba to divorce extra wives?

And let me say again (a point that pcg totally missed and questioned me) that prophet's life before nabuwat (and that includes him marrying khadija) cannot be taken as sunnat, therefore you don't see any reference of that life in any of the books of ahaadees. So please do not use it as an example in this thread.

Bhai sahab, it's very easy for you and me to disect a hadees, but that does not change the core meaning of hadeees.

Previously married people are not a disease, so there is no need to get emotional there people, but virgin is an extra blessing. If not then paradise would be just promising 72 beautiful looking people, and not 72 virgins.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Divorced People

Where does it say that a virgin is an extra-blessing? So those of us who are evil are to get divorced mates in this lifetime? Is getting a divorced partner a marker for whether we're getting into heaven or hell? Because I guess the more virgins you've consorted with, then you're more blessed.

So what about the guys that get repeatedly divorced and end up with some new 20 year old virgin from Pakistan each time? Are they so blessed, then why can't they hold together their families?

[gul_khan]

Re: Divorced People

@Sara516

Because they’re not diseased like you think
We went through this in the other thread, but clearly nothing got through…

Who said they are diseased & for your kind information unmarried people are not “diseased” either as you think so what is wrong if some virgin prefers a virgin instead of going for divorced/widowed.

@Hadeel

Exactly!

I feel so sorry for people with these mindsets. Wonder what they’ll have to say about this if they themselves got divorced or someone close to them did and then people rejected them for being used.

Your comments are rude but anyways … If I get divorced/widowed I will never ever in my life consider a “virgin unmarried guy” no matter what, I will go for a divorced/widowed just like me. Someone in my family did get divorced (my cousin brother) & his family found him a girl who was divorced too instead of having a “young jawan kuri” for him.

If I am divorced/widowed why would I consider a virgin guy to begin with, please provide me 3 logical reasons?
I feel sorry for such mind sets too….

We went through this in the other thread, but clearly nothing got through…

[Jolie]

Re: Divorced People

Well I do think 30 something divorce guys only demanding barely out of teen virgin girl is just plain wrong. I have no respect for such people and such practice should be condemned. Unless the barely out of teen girls falls madly in love with divorced man in mid 30s with couple of kids. (Not that it still makes it okay)

[ButtSb]

Re: Divorced People

@Jolie

Well I do think 30 something divorce guys only demanding barely out of teen virgin girl is just plain wrong. I have no respect for such people and such practice should be condemned. Unless the barely out of teen girls falls madly in love with divorced man in mid 30s with couple of kids. (Not that it still makes it okay)

This is just an overblown issue. Its not as prevalent as it is made out to be....only a few divorced guys look for teenage virgins to marry. Although, there are those who want second wives...

[Jolie]

Re: Divorced People

@ButtSb

This is just an overblown issue. Its not as prevalent as it is made out to be....only a few divorced guys look for teenage virgins to marry. Although, there are those who want second wives...

It certainly is not uncommon. I know a woman who only wants a young 20/21 year old for her 30 something divorced nephew. I didn't really think much about this issue but reading few comments in this thread just reminded about her.

[TLK]

@PyariCgudia:9740090

Where does it say that a virgin is an extra-blessing? So those of us who are evil are to get divorced mates in this lifetime? Is getting a divorced partner a marker for whether we’re getting into heaven or hell? Because I guess the more virgins you’ve consorted with, then you’re more blessed.

So what about the guys that get repeatedly divorced and end up with some new 20 year old virgin from Pakistan each time? Are they so blessed, then why can’t they hold together their families?

You are taking my whole point in such wrong context that there is no point further arguing. We are no longer discussing a thought, we are dissecting each others words, and I am not good at that.

[diwana]

Re: Divorced People

@TLK

Yaar diwana sahab, agar aap ko arabi mauhawara pe uboor nahi tou oos ke English equivalent (fondle) ko topic bana ke hadees ki taang na khenche

Your logic about prophet going back on his own advice is so wrong that I don't know where to start. Islam evolved in 23 years and there are plenty of examples where prophet went back on his own saying. Even the hukm of 4 wives came 11 or 12 years later, and before that Sahaba had up to ten wives. Does that mean that prophet went back on his own words when he asked sahaba to divorce extra wives?

And let me say again (a point that pcg totally missed and questioned me) that prophet's life before nabuwat (and that includes him marrying khadija) cannot be taken as sunnat, therefore you don't see any reference of that life in any of the books of ahaadees. So please do not use it as an example in this thread.

Bhai sahab, it's very easy for you and me to disect a hadees, but that does not change the core meaning of hadeees.

Previously married people are not a disease, so there is no need to get emotional there people, but virgin is an extra blessing. If not then paradise would be just promising 72 beautiful looking people, and not 72 virgins.

TLK Bhai, there is no disrespect I had in my post for the hadith. Lahaul Wala..

I actually found the reason/excuse for the Prophet SAW asking JBA RA the question since he might be a young person. (My point #7)

And I must add here, when I made point #8, I had in my mind that the Prophet SAW must have known that virgins are not superior to previously married women, in terms of whatever happens between husband and wife.

it really did not bother me having arabic word translated as fondle/sport. That is what married people are allowed to do.

But again we have been discussing only one hadith so far.

I have no problem people following some fiqah if that is what they agree with but actually was pondering *if the evidence available is enough to out-rightly think virgins should be preferred over previously married women considering other factors equivalent?
*
I even said in the end, perhaps more evidence is needed.

Certainly the Prophet SAW did not say in the end in this hadith, "You did the right thing, but it would have been better for you to marry a virgin". Like I said in the beginning, this may be some kind of incidence pertaining to a particular Sahabi RA.

This is NOT a core issue in Islam. Just saying. Not that I think you would disagree.

Questioning a 'fiqah rule' or not following it does not make a person non-Muslim since there are many many different and opposing fiqahi rules Muslims follow and they are still Muslims.

The 'virgins' in heaven is another discussion.

[Sara516]

Re: Divorced People

@unknownnn

Who said they are diseased & for your kind information unmarried people are not “diseased” either as you think so what is wrong if some virgin prefers a virgin instead of going for divorced/widowed.

You really have some reading comprehension problems.
Based on your many posts about divorcees, your mentality certainly seems to scream that you think divorced people are somehow diseased.....when you say things like "stick to your own kind", that's hardly welcoming or kind to anyone is it?

[_Iraj]

Re: Divorced People

tlk :k: like men . like women , as in surah ahzab ayat 35

[TABLE=“width: 100%”]

:
 VERILY, for all men and women who have sur-rendered themselves 			unto God, and all believing men and believing women, and all 			truly devout men and truly devout women, and all men and women 			who are true to their word, and all men and women who are patient 			in adversity, and all men and women who humble themselves [before 			God], and all men and women who give in charity, and all 			self-denying men and self-denying women,[SUP]38[/SUP]](http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/33/35/it-is-not-fitting-for-believers-to-have-option-in-what-has-been-decided-by-allah-and-his-rasool#ayanote-38) and all men 			and women who are mindful of their chastity,[SUP]39[/SUP]](http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/33/35/it-is-not-fitting-for-believers-to-have-option-in-what-has-been-decided-by-allah-and-his-rasool#ayanote-39) and all 			men and women who remember God unceasingly: for [all of] them has 			God readied forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward.

[TLK]

@~Iraj~:9740383

tlk :k: like men . like women , as in surah ahzab ayat 35

[TABLE=“width: 100%”]

:
 VERILY, for all men and women who have sur-rendered themselves 			unto God, and all believing men and believing women, and all 			truly devout men and truly devout women, and all men and women 			who are true to their word, and all men and women who are patient 			in adversity, and all men and women who humble themselves [before 			God], and all men and women who give in charity, and all 			self-denying men and self-denying women,[SUP]38[/SUP]](http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/33/35/it-is-not-fitting-for-believers-to-have-option-in-what-has-been-decided-by-allah-and-his-rasool#ayanote-38) and all men 			and women who are mindful of their chastity,[SUP]39[/SUP]](http://www.alim.org/library/quran/ayah/compare/33/35/it-is-not-fitting-for-believers-to-have-option-in-what-has-been-decided-by-allah-and-his-rasool#ayanote-39) and all 			men and women who remember God unceasingly: for [all of] them has 			God readied forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward.

Beautiful sharing iraj. Thanks a lot.