And that takes my point further, they loose religion even on Non-Indian forums.
So would I be correct to assume you are a Hindu?
And that takes my point further, they loose religion even on Non-Indian forums.
So would I be correct to assume you are a Hindu?
Isn't it the wrong order? You assume wrong by the way
Isn't it the wrong order? You assume wrong by the way
So then which religion do you follow? Or are you an Atheist or Agnostic?
Peace to you too psyah
I did read carefully what Hareem1 said. I do get your point now after you have elaborated.
Obviously we don’t have the same view when it comes to infallibility so I am not even gonna go there.
I think we do agree that the Prophet’s pbuh reform was a step by step reform, he cannot implement changes in one go. Thus it was a step by step procedure to ban things. Alcohol had to go, it was a matter of time.
Ali ibn Abi Talib
*
The Holy Prophet had lost his father before he was born. At a very early age he also lost his mother, Amina, and his grandfather Abdul Muttalib. Thereafter it was his uncle, Abu Talib who took care of him and brought him up. Abu Talib had a very large family. He was rather a poor man. When Ali was bron, the Holy Prophet was a grown up man. He had wife and children. **So he took Ali to his own home and brought him up **like his own son. He did this to take a little burden off the shoulders of his loving uncle. But this had another effect too. **Ali grew up in the atmosphere of virtue and piety which no other home could provide.
This early training left a lasting effect on Ali’s mind. *It gave him a keen vision and a passionate love for truth. Above all, it made him a fearless fighter in the way of Allah. These qualities were later to prove a rare asset for Islam.
But based on the above information Hazrat Ali a.s. was brought up by the Prophet pbuh. Are you saying Hazrat Ali a.s. was without guidance and could be completely wrong and *most of all *his lifestyle was based on jahiliya even though his teacher was the best teacher in this whole universe? That he probably drank alcohol coz he was part of jahilyah?
It’s not about infallibity here nor about being a close relative, it’s about an individual’s character - let’s start from his childhood n see what his character was like. It’s logic that I am trying to understand. I am not interested in shia sunni debates. Where did alcohol come into his life from? How do you justify his drinking of alcohol?
So then which religion do you follow? Or are you an Atheist or Agnostic?
I don't know. Seriously.
If I am neither democrat nor republican but politically aware and active - do I have to be labelled an independent? That won't be correct since I am dependent on both parties!
I take the good and best from all religions as I come across them, whi;e being very careful to weed out the crappy concepts, baseless ideas and barbaric practices - and all religions seem to have a few of that!
There were minor differences in the laws of earlier prophets.
For example Camel's meat was prohibited for consumption in earlier law, primarily due to scarcity of the animal or lower growth rate or maybe it was primary mode of transportation. Anyway whatever may be the reason it was not allowed to kill the animal and eat its meat.
In prophet Muhammad's sharia it is perfectly allowed to consume camel's meat. Maybe due to abundance of the animal and availability.
Furthermore dietry laws for jews are far more strict than in islam. For example they are not allowed to mix products of milk and with meat, poultry etc.
Consumption of wine is as old as advent of human civilization. Not all forms of its use is bad , as mentioned in holy quran. There are some benefits too. Like it keeps you warm in cold weather. So if people of Alaska consume liquor then it is their genuine and legitimate requirement. They do it keeping their bodies warm and in working condition.
So Hypothetically if some prophet was appointed in colder region, it is very much possible that liquor was not banned for those people. They consumed it for very reason staying well and fighting chilly weather conditions.
And any proof or reference to what you wrote is?
................. If you say Jesus was a prophet (many muslims try to co-opt christianity and judaism as earlier forms and seek Jesus as a elder prophet) then why ..................
The bolded part of your post was your imagination.
Just wanted to pint out and clarify your skewed mind that.
ALL muslims do like and love to be associated with with Hazrat Issa (JC) and Hazrat Musa (Moses) who at their time brought the message from God/Allah.
I think Hareem answered that already.
Now the discussion would be on authenticity of the books he named for reference.
Get Smart..go play in the backyard with other kids:D
Are you actually agreeing with Get Smart that Jesus promoted getting drunk?
Greetings USResident!
Get Smart never said Jesus promoted getting drunk. Get Smart argue that alcohol used in moderation is OK (see post 15). I agree with him and just pointed out that the Biblical Scripture also agree with such a position.
Getting drunk is a sin. Many Biblical scripture say that a drunkard will not be saved.
[quote="The_Old_Man, post:3000, topic:183857"]
The correct one though....
There is a scripture in the Old Testament where the Israelites is exhorted to save a tenth of their income and to spend it on: ...Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, *
Which one came first? "wine is a mocker" or " buy wine and other fermented drink"?**
Re: Did the Prophets before Mohammad (pbuh) drink?
Liberal Christian View of Alcohol - Good academic article
Alcohol and The Bible
Conservative Explanation - another good article
Wine, Alcohol, and the Bible
In general over 200 references in the Bible 59% of which are positively or accepting of wine use refer to something that is not alcoholic.
People who argue for wine do not care for the alcoholic nature of the reference, but people who assert it’s prohibition or caution distinguish the references from the alcoholic versions. I would side with the conserative view in this matter, because:
-
Even in Islam we have positive references for wine to be drunk in paradise - but it is not alcoholic.
-
If you do not distinguish between alcoholic and non-alcoholic wine in the Bible you end up creating contradictory references it is to be cautioned or not, or you will dilute the injunction i.e. you can drink but in moderation only. Moderation being an ill-defined term. Even in secular society it is an unwirtten law to allow drink in moderation only, but society tells it’s own tale about how impossible this task really is.
My understanding is that intoxicants have been forbidden to the People of The Book but when Islam came to a new people i.e. the Arabs who were engrossed in alcoholism it would take them time to be weaned off it, which is the reason why alcohol was gradually forbidden for them.
And any proof or reference to what you wrote is?
Well, most part it is assumption and hypothesis.
About camel, I believe it is prohibited in jewish law.
Camel meat is not kosher
Re: Did the Prophets before Mohammad (pbuh) drink?
^
3 Do not eat any detestable thing. 4 These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, 5 the deer, the gazelle, the roe deer, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope and the mountain sheep. a] 6 You may eat any animal that has a split hoof divided in two and that chews the cud. 7 However, of those that chew the cud or that have a split hoof completely divided you may not eat the camel, the rabbit or the coney. **(Deuteronomy 14 NIV - Clean and Unclean Food - You are the - Bible Gateway)] Although they chew the cud, they do not have a split hoof; they are ceremonially unclean for you. 8 The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses.
BibleGateway.com: Search for a Bible passage in over 35 languages and 50 versions.**
Greetings USResident!
Get Smart never said Jesus promoted getting drunk. Get Smart argue that alcohol used in moderation is OK (see post 15). I agree with him and just pointed out that the Biblical Scripture also agree with such a position.
Getting drunk is a sin. Many Biblical scripture say that a drunkard will not be saved.
This is what GetSmart posted:
[quote]
Why all this theoretical debate....So stop making drinking of all kinds sound like a sin....Jesus made wine, obviously to be drunk
[/quote]
I view this as a near allegation.
I don’t understand the relevance or importance. 
This is what GetSmart posted:
I view this as a near allegation.
I disagree. It is putting words and understanding where none are intended.
In John.21v22 Jesus answered to a question of one of his disciples about what would happen to another disciple if Jesus go away, If I want him to remain alive till I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.".
According to verse 23 the disciples misunderstand Jesus and ...the rumour spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die...
It is bad debating tactic or reasoning if the other person interprets your words wrongly AND insisting that that was what you, the originator, REALLY meant.
I disagree. It is putting words and understanding where none are intended.
In John.21v22 Jesus answered to a question of one of his disciples about what would happen to another disciple if Jesus go away, If I want him to remain alive till I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.".
According to verse 23 the disciples misunderstand Jesus and ...the rumour spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die...
It is bad debating tactic or reasoning if the other person interprets your words wrongly AND insisting that that was what you, the originator, REALLY meant.
Oh I see what is being said, DRUNK as in the past tense of drink, not meaning DRUNKARD. My mistake though not intentional so no telling me about using bad tactics. You know me better than that. However that still does not make me agree with any of GetSmarts posts for very obvious reasons and philosophy. Thanks for helping out here.
psyah, did you read the first link which you referred to?
Your first link "Liberal Christian View of Alcohol - Good academic article" is exactly that - a VERY good impartial article that considers all aspects and verses. The result:
A total prohibition against the use of alcohol is conspicuous
Your second link "Conservative Explanation - another good article" states as summary:
Drunkenness as a condition is condemned
The difference between the two articles is a personnal statement of the "conservative" writer that "In light of the times, even moderate consumption of alcohol by a Christian is not a good idea." **which is not based on the article but rather because the auther feels it is difficult for Christians to not fall into the trap of excessive alcohol use. i can live with his personnal opinion, but that is all it is.
[quote]
My understanding is that intoxicants have been forbidden to the People of The Book
[/quote]
Alcoholic beverages moderately used for enjoyment are not forbidden for the People of the Book, as both your references state.
My mistake though not intentional so no telling me about using bad tactics. You know me better than that.
No problem, and I consider you as a good debater and not someone using "bad tactics". That's why I made the effort to point out the difference in interpretation. Having English as second language, same as me, I can understand our mistake.
Anyway, should I have used "I" or "me" in the part "same as me" in the previous sentence? I never can tell! :flower1"