Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

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141

Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

I am having to respond to you post #135 in bits ... I don't want miss anything you see. :)

Firstly, I don't understand how you can even entertain the notion that Allah (SWT) forgot any exception based on what I write ... Because all along I have been stating that the exceptions ... Many in this case are inherent in the verses themselves, that you are claiming are absolute and all encompassing. The typical example was 7:25 ... There should be ample reason to conclude for you now that this verse is not PROOF that is binding on EVERY human, rather there seems to be only a trend present for most humans ... The Arabic confirms the observed case, where people have lived in space, and people have been brought back to life as brother Ibn Sadique mentioned and it allows for Ascension of Isa (AS) too ... which is the crux of this argument.

Then we come back to the verses regarding Ascension ... And see they can indeed be interpreted as we are interpreting them.

Much of what you have mentioned above is indeed shirk ... Attributing it all to us is a lie from you ...keep away from it ... Isa (as) is said to have performed miracles as with many other prophets (AS) .. The fact that they were doing the miracles is logically accidental ... The reality is they were instructed to perform them and the results from them were from Allah (SWT). So we say miracles are made by Allah (SWT) where a vessel such as a prophet will often be a mediator for them.

The fact that Isa (AS) ate is enough to prove his mortality ... Even if he no longer ever eats again ... It cannot be escaped that he ate something ... Also the same refers to him having a mother and a starting point. This also proves his mortality ... (AS) .... You say this often ... 2012 years of age ... Bla bla bla BUT that does not constitute anywhere near the example of no beginning and no end ... How ridiculous is this comparison you are making???

Even if we claim say mr. X will live for 1000,000 years but then die, we are not making him Divine, because The Deity does not die ... never not even eventually ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

All of this was unnecessary ... My question is that if Isa (AS) has died, then why wasn't the same example employed for him as it was for Muhammad(SAW) ...the example was eating for Isa (AS) and it was to die or be killed for RasoolAllah (SAW) ...

Now you desperately want that phrase Qad Khalat to mean die ... It does not mean that ... It means (came and went) or (have come and gone) ... Everything in this verse is the same ... Apart from the explicit mention of death for Muhammad (SAW) and no such mention of death for Isa (AS) ... Now can you still accuse us of saying Isa (AS) being alive is not compatible with the Quran ... This clearly demonstrates a strong basis for our belief.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

You said it is relating to 4 individuals but fail to show me a single instance in which human being had lived outside of the Earth, ofcourse without any proper measures. It is naive to think that Adam and 3 other individual (according to you) were the only ones told to live on Earth. Rest of them are free to be living anywhere else.. this was not proved by you. Humans do tend to live ON Earth.. anywhere outside, they DIE!.. why should I not use that verse to mean every humanbeing then ? It is easy to say that the verse contains exceptions.. i asked you to make exceptions in the verse and tell me what you can come up with. Yet you did not take this question seriously either. Just saying it has exception is not good enough :). None of the verse you provided which disproves my understanding of the verse.

Wrong. People cannot live in heaven. You telling me that if Adam lived, so can anyone else is false idea to begin with. You need to first see if the verse if only limited to 4 individual or for everyone. If it is for 4 only, then we should be able to live outside the Earth. The verse was said after Adam came to Earth. So, no, doesnt make sense.

O deeaaaaarr !!!
Now you are going to tell me heaven is a physical place. I dont want to talk about that. No matter whatever shape it is in, it is outside the Earth, we cannot get there alive. We can experience heaven or hell in this very life..but that will occur while us being on earth, heaven and hell which are the ultimate abode will be only after death.

If you see the event of miraj, muhammad pbuh saw jesus a.s and yahya a.s in 2nd heaven. One alive, while another dead. Can you explain this ?
Keep in mind that dead do not accompany alive. (I can explain this statement in brief too, but I hope you’re smart enough to know what I mean).

I still say humans can ONLY live on Earth. Allah said so. You are changing the meaning of verses according to your beliefs rather than changing your beliefs according to Quranic verses. Trust me you are! May Allah soften your heart and enable you to see whole Quran and not just one verse and then make a belief and then no matter what is given to you, you will keep creating exceptions in it. May He forgives what you do. ameen.

No hard feelings. Forgive me if i had said any harsh words against you. I never meant to offend you in anyway. Respects for what you do in love of Islam and to keep your beliefs intact no matter what… but in the end, its the Quran’s word that will prevail and is prevailing alhamdulillah.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace psyah,

I have explained it to you. Read the whole post again. Allah needed not to pin point each single one of the messenger before Muhammad PBUH, naming them and then declaring them dead. It is an understood phenomena. Whoever comes to this world dies.

I have no control over how Allah revealed his message. I can only tell how we understood it as by taking into consideration the entire Quran. I can guarantee you that whatever explanation I give does not and will not ever contradict any single verse of Quran. It will be and is in complete accordance to the entire Quran.

Isa a.s's case Allah clearly said that just like other messengers before Isa a.s died, so did He. Another indication was given by saying Him and His mother 'used' to eat food. If you see the verse in its entirety, it does not leave any doubt of what Allah is telling us here.

Muhammad saw's case, Allah is specifically saying messengers 'before' him had passed away. Now right after passing away, he says 'so if he was to be killed or die', refers to Allah telling us that messengers have passed away by being killed or by being dead.. if the same was to happen to Muhammad PBUH what happened to previous prophets, will you turn your back on him?

In both the verses, the main purpose is to reflect the lives of messengers 'before' muhammad pbuh.. and how they died... in both the verses, Isa a.s is the one to be kept in mind as well, along with all the other prophets.

It is easy to understand but you're choosing to keep the debate going for the sake of it. If so, carry on :)

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

So far you have proven this about yourself:

a) You do not believe in the Ascension of Isa (AS) which is aqeedah according to Muslims
b) You do not believe in miracles which is aqeedah according to Muslims
c) You do not believe in the reality of Jannah and Jahannum being actual places where people will live ... which is aqeedah to Muslims
d) You do not believe in Finality of Prophethood which is aqeedah to Muslims
e) You also have said that Allah (SWT) says things where in fact He does not say it ... this is a serious matter indeed
f) You deny the reality of Mi'raj of RasoolAllah (SAW) ... which is aqeedah to Muslims

In addition you blame us for committing shirk, mistranslation where indeed you do it yourself, in fact you only read from mistranslations.

Let's not even talk about your view of Jihad

All this from us merely defending our beliefs and you challenging them ... If on the other hand we were to even start looking closely at your beliefs and see how well you can defend them ... well we won't do that !!! Well at least I won't ... I've better things to do than bash you ... in fact I have better things to do than chase you around in circles as you take pot shots at our belief system which is more than well cross-referenced.

How is it that you resemble Muslims?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

What is it that you do not understand?
People can live in water too..but that is not a place for humans to live. People CAN live outside the earth too, but with proper equipment with them. Show me an incident in which a human lived in space without the need of oxygen. Also, once dead, ( not sleep ), Allah does not return soul back to the body. Allah will raise him only on the day of resurrection. Do you realize, just to prove my understanding wrong, you are infact saying stuff which Islam does not even allow?

[QUOTE]
Much of what you have mentioned above is indeed shirk ... Attributing it all to us is a lie from you ...keep away from it ... Isa (as) is said to have performed miracles as with many other prophets (AS) .. The fact that they were doing the miracles is logically accidental ... The reality is they were instructed to perform them and the results from them were from Allah (SWT). So we say miracles are made by Allah (SWT) where a vessel such as a prophet will often be a mediator for them.

The fact that Isa (AS) ate is enough to prove his mortality ... Even if he no longer ever eats again ... It cannot be escaped that he ate something ... Also the same refers to him having a mother and a starting point. This also proves his mortality ... (AS) .... You say this often ... 2012 years of age ... Bla bla bla BUT that does not constitute anywhere near the example of no beginning and no end ... How ridiculous is this comparison you are making???

Even if we claim say mr. X will live for 1000,000 years but then die, we are not making him Divine, because The Deity does not die ... never not even eventually ...
[/QUOTE]

All else i dont think needs a response. You said even if he no longer eats again.. what is it that you're trying to tell here? if he no longer eats.. then you have either 2 of the possibilities left. 1) either he's dead 2) he is divine, since Allah alone is the one who does not need food to remain. Do you not think by tongue you're not doing shirk but by having this belief you are ?

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

You said yourself that the Sunnah of Allah (SWT) is unchanging ... now you say that Allah (SWT) need not pin point each messenger and naming them dead ... But He did pin point Muhammad (SAW) in that way ... and He did pin point Isa (AS) to be a person who ate ...

You cannot escape this difference ... admit that there is a difference between how Muhammad (SAW) is being viewed and how Isa (AS) is being viewed ...

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

Why are you talking about special equipment? Who is talking about special equipment here? Totally irrelevant. 7:25 is not PROOF against the Ascension of Isa (AS) … this is crux of the argument - if you have reason and truthfulness in you - you will admit this …

Regarding the eating of Isa (AS) … :hehe:

Allah (SWT) can sustain Isa (AS) in any way He Wills, I make no assumptions about if he eats now, ate and is not eating - it is irrelevant - the fact the he (AS) ate when he was seen to be eating is the point being made in the verse and the point that I am making.

(By the way if you really want my personal opinion on this matter - I believe that Isa (AS) was taken from his time domain and space and put down in the future - so he (AS) will experience no time lag - when the rest of the world will go through many years. If I am just getting on a bus and getting off at the next stop I will not be as tired as I would be if I ran that distance)

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

So, I suppose that was it? You are labeled Muslim to have agreed to to your ancestors beliefs which cannot be confirmed by God's book, and I questioning your beliefs based on Quran and ahadith which shakes your beliefs front, back, right and left.. questioning based on Quran would make me non-muslim. Great! You enjoy being called Muslims, while I enjoy practicing the real Islam. Hey, not your scholars islam but Islam which Allah's book teaches :)

PS: You accused me of things above which are lies. Miracles im a believer of. Jannah and hell im a believer of, khatam e nabuwat is my iman too...Quran is what i talk from.. i do not add anything nor deduct anything from it... Mir'aj event I AM a believer of. Hence everything that Quran and ahadith tells me I follow. Agreeing to your understanding of these things is not necessary for me to be called a Muslim :) Enjoy and do consult your scholars upon the questions which i frequently ask you. I'm sure your heart is not hard enough to be neglecting the questions which I ask you.

PS2: Here are 2 translations which also agree to how we translated the verse. Hope you will question them too.

6:35 Muhsin Khan
If their aversion (from you, O Muhammad SAW and from that with which you have been sent) is hard on you, (and you cannot be patient from their harm to you), then if you were able to seek a tunnel in the ground or a ladder to the sky, so that you may bring them a sign (and you cannot do it, so be patient). And had Allah willed, He could have gathered them together (all) unto true guidance, so be not you one of those who are Al-Jahilun (the ignorant).

Sahih International
And if their evasion is difficult for you, then if you are able to seek a tunnel into the earth or a stairway into the sky to bring them a sign, [then do so]. But if Allah had willed, He would have united them upon guidance. So never be of the ignorant.

Kindly, stop questioning me, and start questioning Muhsin Khan translation of where they got that from.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

lol! so that was it i guess?

How is it irrelevant? I dont get your point. For Isa a.s to be living outside the world, he ‘needs’ oxygen.. unless you tell me he has oxygen cylinder with him.. then ok fine ill stop it at this point :slight_smile: but until you keep telling me he is 1) alive 2) not on Earth 3) not eating and still alive… you’re violating 2 verses of Quran. It does not suit a Muslim to say Allah can sustain Isa a.s in any way he wills.. sure he can.. but like I said, why is he the ONLY exception you bring out? NOBODY else BUT him !

You must admit that you’re purposely trying to ignore what is written in Quran and keep telling me oohh!!!, its a miracle… a miracle alright !. Allah denied Muhammad PBUH to go to heavens and to get non believers book. Muhammad PBUH is to be taken as an ideal for this particular case of ascension. If he was refused, it cannot happen with Isa a.s. Secondly, He a.s was seen with dead prophets at the event of mira’aj.

Since your personal opinion is your own personal. I will not comment on it. Though, it does not make sense. It has no basis to it. Just a bunch of sci-fi predictions :slight_smile:

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace Mr.Popat

Thanks for the previous points I'll take them to consideration inshaAllah ... regarding the translation ... Where in your verse are the brackets? Brackets are important as they show interpretation ... You missed them out making it seem that Allah (SWT) was saying those things ... The Sahih translation is better than yours ... the verse is not telling us not to look in the Earth or in the Sky ... but that even if such things were done they would still reject it all. That is how I feel you have been behaving with us.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

I thought there was something fishy here ... Belief in the "means" of Allah (SWT) is outside the aqeedah of Islam ... We believe that we only 'need' Allah (SWT) all else is merely incidental or accidental ... which means that it is entirely possible for Isa (AS) to live anywhere where Allah (SWT) chooses without restriction.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Popat – You present yourself as a rationalist modernist, but that is all a facade. You claim that you follow the Quran, Hadith and Ijmah Sahabah but that is all lip-service.

I did a search and now I understand your difficulties and the reasons you are stubbornly and doggedly going in circles – you are constrained by philosophy of Ahmadiyat – No wonder whatever is explained to you by using the language of the Quran and authentic ahadith you doggedly stick to your line completely ignoring the Quran and ahadith.

And yet keep claiming that you are following the Quran and ahadith!!!

I wanted to know what ticked you so did some research on the Net and wanted to see how Ahmadis translated the Quran verses and explained them – The results as follows:

I have taken translation of ayahs 7:24 and 7:25 – (By Ahmadi reckoning 7:25 and 7:26 respectively.)

  1. God said, “go forth, some of you will be enemies of others. And for you there is an abode on the earth and a provision for a time” – Note 961
  2. He said therein you shall live and therein you shall die and therefrom shall you be brought forth. – Note 962

Translation and Notes can be viewed at the following link:

The Holy Quran

Notes:

961 The verse shows that Adam was commanded to emigrate from the land of his birth because enmity and hatred had sprung up between different members of his community. This constitutes further evidence of the fact that the “garden” which Adam was commanded to leave was not Paradise. It appears that Adam emigrated from Mesopotamia, the land of his birth, to a neighbouring land. The emigration was perhaps a temporary one and he may have returned to his native land not long after. Indeed the words, provision for a time, contained a veiled hint at them emigration being a temporary one. Adam is warned in this verse to be careful in the future. For it was in his native land he was to live forever.

Above is all pure speculation, nothing definite. Usage of following words/phrases “This constitutes further evidence” “It appears” “was perhaps” “contained a veiled hint” shows pure speculation – nothing backed by ahadith.

962. Taken in general sense the verse hints that no human being can ascend to the Heavens in his physical; body. Man must live on earth and die.

“general sense the verse hints” It just hints nothing definite.

Popat Do you really believe the following, if so, can you give reference from Quran or ahadith?

Brother pysah Very interesting notes: read the following Notes 957 957A 958 959 960

The Holy Quran

**Popat **

See the Ahmadi Tafseer states that “General sense the verse hints that no human being can ascend to the Heavens in his physical”

Yes, that is in general sense - but what we have been talking about is not in general sense but in exceptional circumstances when Divine Will is involved -Miracles of Allah - general sense goes out when Divine Will takes over - And Nothing is impossible for Allah (swt)! All He has to say is “BE” and it is DONE. You cannot put limitations on ABILITY of Allah to suit your arguments.

What He wishes - It is DONE.

As for what Hz. Isa Ibn Maryam (as) eats - That you leave it Allah (as) Allah is the Razzaq and He will and is taking care of Isa Ibn Maryam (as) - All that is in Allah’s Domain - you don’t need to worry about that.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Mr.Popat … Your lay is rumpled by brother Ibn Sadique … :hehe:

Adam (AS) was born in Mesopotamia ???

Come again ?

Born !!! … Not created, moulded, fashioned?

In Mesopotamia? … The Jannah of yesteryear is a war zone of today? :eek:

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Brother Ibn Sadique ... You will notice that anything amazing and out of the ordinary, including matters of the ghaib and miracles ... are apologetically reinterpreted by Mr.Popat's scholars.

they don't believe in Jinn either ...from what I remember.

I have actually heard this before that they consider Iblis and Satan two different people ... And to the extent of calling him a human.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

It was an error from my side. I mistakenly made the whole verse in italic, when i should have used which are in brackets as italics only. But anyhow, Muhsin Khan translation have the same meaning of how I presented the verse. It would rather be good if you instead talk to me about the verse. See how your scholars understood it as.. then tell me what it means.

So why even bother debating? If your ending answer is always Allah can do everything, without even looking at what Quran is saying.. then keep on propagating false image of Islam. A religion which has been made as a fairytale by your so called scholars. May Allah forgive them for hiding the truth.

1) hes alive outside Earth 2) he has extra ordinary long life as a human being 3) he does not need to eat to remain alive.

Answer : 'it is entirely possible for isa a.s to live anywhere where Allah chooses without restriction'

Beautiful. Just beautiful !!

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Although I knew about this belief as well and it make sense to me.. but this again is not proof from your side to disagree with my understanding of the verse. In fact, showing this would further strengthen what I’m saying in a sense that Adam did not stay in the heaven in which people go after their death. I was merely trying to debate solely on the basis of your own belief. Yes, every human is ‘born’. But thats our belief.. and we can talk more about that in detail. I have no issue with that. But you cannot use this in your favor in any way. This belief itself further agree to my belief that humans are to live in this earth and die on this earth.

Yep. In general sense the verse hints that no human being can ascend to heaven in his physical body. Why are you talking about an exceptional case anyway? You are the one creating the case of Jesus as exceptional. In general, no human being can leave the Earth with his physical body and still remain alive without proper equipment (oxygen cylinders,food whatever).

What quranic hadith do you want for my understanding ? I have told you how in Quran Allah denied Muhammad PBUH to go to heavens to bring down a book. I have shown you that it is impossible for the prophet to put ladder to heaven to bring down a sign.. I have given 2 direct verses of Quran, one mentioning Muhammad PBUH and prophets before him dead, and another verse in which Messiah has been told dead like other prophets before him.. Unfortunately you choose to ignore part of things what I say and comment on whatever you feel is relevant.

**

exceptional circumstance why? who is making it exceptional ? Even in the most exceptional case, you cannot live outside the Earth. It is an absolute truth which needs no proof. Rather the proof of burden of someone living outside of this earth and still being alive without the needs of things which humans require to survive there… well then my friend.. it is you who needs to answer me!

Allah does not eat.
Allah said that jesus cannot be god because he and his mother ‘used to’ eat.

Meaning, for him to be divine, he needs not to eat..but he did eat and he and his mother used to eat.

Now, you are telling Allah.. that his reasoning of eating or not eating doesnt make sense. Isa a.s is alive and does not eat. How according to you is he not divine then ?

He used to eat. He does not eat now. Whoever does not eat and still alive and will always remain alive is one and only Allah. But you’re creating this huge exception to such an extent that you do not worry about yourself committing shirk!

May Allah save me from creating or believing in an atom’s worth of shirk.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

Answer to this is in post 157.
You see, this belief or assumption that Adam a.s lived in heaven ..so can Jesus a.s got vanished too :slight_smile:
I was merely saying and debating from your view point…i was also right to say that the verse ‘therein shall you live’ was said after Adam came to Earth.

But thats another story. All souls are said to be created..and humans to be born. If in the tafseer it had said that Adam a.s did indeed live in the heaven in which people go after their death, yeah then you can use that against me.. but frankly.. now, you need to tackle this belief first whether the heaven was on Earth or was Allah talking about the heaven which is the ultimate place? Like I said, thats another topic..and i did not want to get into this. My point was very straight forward and easy to understand… ‘therein shall you live’ was said after adam was sent to Earth.

lol !
When you do not have answer to questions.. this is how you end it?

I’m waiting for your response about the verse of Muhammad PBUH’s death and Messiah a.s death and prophets before them dying. Why you take them irrelevant is beyond my understanding.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur'an and obvious blunders

Peace All,

Peoples of Cave. How long they were fall in sleep. If one believe in that that there should be no doubt about Hazrat Isa a.s.

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Re: Details of interpreting verses from the Qur’an and obvious blunders

What does Allah’s sunnah have to do with how he wants us to understand how all prophets died? :S

Post number 137 is your answer.

Here’s the link to it.

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/562810-details-of-interpreting-verses-from-the-quran-and-obvious-blunders-7.html#post8980988